Fierce_LiNk Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Should the UK stay in or opt out of the EU? It's a hot topic at the moment and I feel that we should have a thread here to talk about it. The referendum takes place on 23rd June...not too far away at all.
Tales Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Stay. If you leave you are officially the dumbest people in the world.
Mr-Paul Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Disappointed this thread isn't about belly buttons. In.
Retro_Link Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 In. I think it's crazy to isolate ourselves. Also I don't want to live in a world with the views of Boris Johnson and Donald Trump at the forefront.
Sméagol Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 I'd need to pay taxes if I order from Amazon.co.uk, so please stay.. Also, if you don't stay, admins need to ban everyone from the UK.
Eddage Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 I'm being put forward for a job that is designing materials for an 'out' campaign so that'll be interesting if I get it... I have zero political awareness (other than the fact that Jeremy Hunt is a cunt) so don't really know either way. Although I don't really see why we would leave, do people not think it's working? Stay. If you leave you are officially the dumbest people in the world. Norway aren't in the Eu are they? Do you think that has negative effects on your country?
Tales Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) I'm being put forward for a job that is designing materials for an 'out' campaign so that'll be interesting if I get it... I have zero political awareness (other than the fact that Jeremy Hunt is a cunt) so don't really know either way. Although I don't really see why we would leave, do people not think it's working? Norway aren't in the Eu are they? Do you think that has negative effects on your country? Kinda, yes, we are an EFTA member, which is basically an EU member without a voice. In order to take part in the trade union despite not being a member, we have to adopt a lot of legislation and regulations made by the EU but don't get a say in how they are formed. It probably won't happen for a long time, but if we had vote today, I would vote yes to EU. Edited February 22, 2016 by Tales
MoogleViper Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Disappointed this thread isn't about belly buttons. Mine was out as a kid/teenager, but now it's in.
Iun Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 I am suprised that "shake it all about" is not an option.
Blade Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) Undecided although i'm steering towards OUT The EU is probably one of the Europe's most undemocratic bodies. I'm personally torn between in and out. There are clear benefits remaining a member of the EU -Trade -Co-operation with crime and anti-terrorism -excellent social protections - employment law is the main area. -also the fact that there hasn't not been armed conflict between an EU member has also got to count for something. -international trade is more promising knowing that countries such as China can do business in the UK but also Germany etc without any problems -in these increased uncertain times in the economy and also potential armed threats from Russia, China, North Korea, Iran there are clear benefits staying in the EU. -European arrest warrant -our consumer protection laws come from the EU -helped transform former 13 dictatorships into democracies and EU members -the single market -free movement There are many many others that I can't think on top of my head right now. I don't agree with the argument that we wouldn't cope on our own. The UK is the same country that survived fine for hundreds of years and conquered the globe right? Yeah, I think we will be fine. The fact that the EU Parliament has such little power is the thing I have issue with (although this is getting better). The EU commission (the "executive" of the EU where the majority of the laws are proposed) is nothing short of a body of dictators. They are neither elected nor accountable to any member state, nevermind the UK! The institutions of the EU aren't democratic nor accountable enough for an organisation that wields such a large amount of power. History shows that people don't like laws being made for them when there is little that can be done. The Americans didn't like the fact that they had laws imposed on them when they had no rights to change them and we had a war over it. I'm conflicted. It's not immigration, benefits etc that I have a problem with it's the democratic deficit. Unelected people from different countries can impose laws upon the UK (that haven't elected them) is what I have fundamental issues with. Kinda, yes, we are an EFTA member, which is basically an EU member without a voice. In order to take part in the trade union despite not being a member, we have to adopt a lot of legislation and regulations made by the EU but don't get a say in how they are formed. It probably won't happen for a long time, but if we had vote today, I would vote yes to EU. The Norweigan model is far worse than what the UK has at the minute. The Norweigans have to obey the EU like some colonial master. Edited February 23, 2016 by Blade Automerged Doublepost
Will Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 I`m a little far removed from the whole thing so I don`t really put any weight on my comments... For me the EU always seemed like a great idea poorly executed. I`m all for bringing everyone together and creating something better than the sum of it`s parts, but it always seems to cause so many issues with people not being on a shared path of objectives. I`d vote to stay in on the condition the whole thing would go through some big changes.
Nolan Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 Being from the US I'm pretty much ignorant on all aspects of this, soooo... My belly button is an innie, and outies are weird.
Cube Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 Definitely in. I have more faith in the EU's policies and regulations than I do with our own government, and it's also good for trade and consumer laws.
Charlie Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 I can see benefits to both sides of the fence so I'm thoroughly undecided and willing to be convinced by either side. I want to see some real articles on the affects to the economy of a Yes/No vote with as little bias as possible. I was quite pleased with how Cameron's negotiations with as I agree with a lot of his points.
peterl0 Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 I am in as well, for reasons of standing together as united countries and the trade. Also I think it has helped video game manufacturers treat the whole of Europe more seriously as a region compared to the dark old days.
Kav Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 I'm in the same mindset as @Blade (great post by the way), although maybe leaning slightly toward in.
Serebii Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 I'm currently undecided. There are very valid reasons for both staying in and leaving :/
pratty Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 I'm yet to commit to a decision, but at the moment I'm leaning towards out. Ultimately I believe in the principle that countries should have control of their own destiny, not be dictated to by foreigners. And this does not mean isolation. What is stopping us from choosing to adopt a lot of beneficial EU policies ourselves without commiting to EU membership? This might sound like wanting to have our cake and eat it, but that should be what our politicians strive for, to maximise the positives of European relations and minimise the negatives. For example with regard to immigration into the UK, if we wanted to we could hypothetically choose to have the same amount of immigration as we do under the EU, the point is the degree of immigration would be our choice, what is the benefit to us of giving these sorts of decisions away to the EU? Why does it take 'all in' EU membership to facilitate international cooperation, especially if it's so mutally beneficial? Why wouldn't EU members want to cooperate with us if it's to their benefit, EU member or not? For example if collective funding allows us to conduct reasearch we couldn't otherwise afford individually, that's great, but why can't we just participate selectively without EU membership, and contribute funding proportionate to the costs and our share of the benefits? If the benefit of EU membership is that it forces supposedly beneficial policies (which are obviously subjective) on it's member nations for their own good, then isn't that an admission of the EU's authortitarianism? To force policy on a nation whether it wants it or not, or can afford it or not. Countries should govern themselves, the more scope for political diversity and freedom the better. Whatever the benefits of the EU are, they have to be weighed against both the negatives and the more general concerns of the centralisation of power and decision making; the issues of one-size-fits-all legislation across a large and diverse range of countires and cultures, and the fundamental political implications of fewer politicians directing the lives of a greater number people.
Nolan Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 I'm yet to commit to a decision, but at the moment I'm leaning towards out. Ultimately I believe in the principle that countries should have control of their own destiny, not be dictated to by foreigners. And this does not mean isolation. What is stopping us from choosing to adopt a lot of beneficial EU policies ourselves without commiting to EU membership? This might sound like wanting to have our cake and eat it, but that should be what our politicians strive for, to maximise the positives of European relations and minimise the negatives. For example with regard to immigration into the UK, if we wanted to we could hypothetically choose to have the same amount of immigration as we do under the EU, the point is the degree of immigration would be our choice, what is the benefit to us of giving these sorts of decisions away to the EU? Why does it take 'all in' EU membership to facilitate international cooperation, especially if it's so mutally beneficial? Why wouldn't EU members want to cooperate with us if it's to their benefit, EU member or not? For example if collective funding allows us to conduct reasearch we couldn't otherwise afford individually, that's great, but why can't we just participate selectively without EU membership, and contribute funding proportionate to the costs and our share of the benefits? If the benefit of EU membership is that it forces supposedly beneficial policies (which are obviously subjective) on it's member nations for their own good, then isn't that an admission of the EU's authortitarianism? To force policy on a nation whether it wants it or not, or can afford it or not. Countries should govern themselves, the more scope for political diversity and freedom the better. Whatever the benefits of the EU are, they have to be weighed against both the negatives and the more general concerns of the centralisation of power and decision making; the issues of one-size-fits-all legislation across a large and diverse range of countires and cultures, and the fundamental political implications of fewer politicians directing the lives of a greater number people. I feel as though I can mention something in relation to a portion of this post. The US has 50 states. I suppose in theory we could be independent. That is somewhat neither here nor there though. What this post most made me think of is missouris and Arkansas. Missouri by bias and Arkansas by fact. Missouri is somewhat low income and intellect as a state. Arkansas is literally so low income that my payment from unemployment is close to their poverty line. Shit. I'm drunkenly rambling. Drunkenly has the emphasis. Essentially I'm just trying to say that as a union (which is what the US is. A union of states, some of us are breaking ourselves for those with less to work with. They deserve just as much of a life and work hard as well but can earn less and are sometimes given more. Simultaneously though....sometimes we break ourselves and have everything taken with such little gain. You can earn so much through hard work that suddenly you don't deserve as much as you worked for. Fuck I'm drunk. Fuck capitalism. Fuck socialism. Tuck the other ones. The U.K. Needs to consider more than just trade benefits I've heard mentioned. It needs to look at what jobs might be lost and what jobs might be gained by full participation. What's the point of joining if suddenly no one can afford to make a purchase.
Blade Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 @Nolan The EU is not a European state. I think US state rights vs federal rights is more comparable to the constituent parts of the UK vs Westiminster.
peterl0 Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 Ultimately I would like to see a countries joining together rather than separating themselves. (How else are we going to achieve the future of Star Trek. :-) ) When it comes to the perceived lack of democracy of the EU, I think it would be better to reform the democratic approach of the EU rather than leave. After all, ultimately, a country based government will impose its rules on the country as a whole - including upon those that did not vote for them.
Blade Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 Ultimately I would like to see a countries joining together rather than separating themselves. (How else are we going to achieve the future of Star Trek. :-) ) When it comes to the perceived lack of democracy of the EU, I think it would be better to reform the democratic approach of the EU rather than leave. After all, ultimately, a country based government will impose its rules on the country as a whole - including upon those that did not vote for them. But the EU is not a country. Reform of the democratic approach is unfortunately not on the table. It will require substantial amends to the Treaties that some EU countries could not stomach domestically
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