Rummy Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) On point - if I could run 99% of games perfectly on emulators on a PC made by people in their bedrooms etc in the late 90s/early 00s then there is ZERO reason Nintendo can't get it done with their own games, on their own hardware, with relatively little effort. Whilst I dislike the idea of constantly trotting out old back catalogue/retro titles as they're easy dime(especially with Nintendo's non-unified system) - I would somewhat like it if they did it, as it's a bit along the lines of heading down a download focus - quirky 3rd party/indie titles etc. There was so much promise made by Nintendo about this support(unity porting etc) and where has it all gone to? What's come of it? I barely see any mention or talk of downloadable 3rd party/indie on the Wii U. Does it even get much? Edited January 9, 2014 by Retro_Link
Ashley Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Day 1 patches that the Wii U had, or Pokémon Bank being closed down as it for screwed up, or XY needing a patch, or a patch needed to fix Skyward Sword, or Mario Party being recalled. Mistakes happen, they're natural. Fortune favours the brave and Nintendo is often timid, hiding behind a "we only release things that are perfect" facade. It's impossible for everything to be perfect. Obviously it's not ideal, but at the moment I feel it's the lesser of two evils. Would be good to see Nintendo experiment. Edited January 9, 2014 by Ashley
S.C.G Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 As much as they say this, and I'm sure they do strive for this, recent history shows they don't always get things perfect. I feel that if they released things (such as a wider VC) and there were problems, providing they patch them up, there would ultimately be less discord than there currently is. And that attitude is why gaming is going to hell. "Oh it's fine as we can patch it." That attitude brings things like Battlefield 4, 1GB day one patches etc. There has got to be some kind of middle-ground though? If each game takes time then at least give us one amazing game a month that people actually want, fair enough we've had Super Mario Bros. 3 on both formats recently, Mario Tennis on 3DS VC was definitely welcome as is today's main release Contra III: The Alien Wars but they really need to keep up the momentum to keep things interesting. More of the Mega Man X games wouldn't go amiss - I realise that's Capcom but they are games which are wanted on the VC - plus some more of those classic SNES games like StarFox or the original Super Mario Kart! They started off so well with the 30p game promotion and then things started to slow down, there are currently just over sixty VC games out on the Wii U VC in just over a year, personally I would have at least hoped that we'd be at least into the triple figures by now. At the very least it could be ensured that there aren't any weeks where we don't get any VC games which has happened more than once, I don't mind having a break from writing VC weekly but quite honestly I would rather be swamped with reviews to write and know that the Wii U is potentially doing better as a platform for having a wealth of digitally downloadable classics. : peace:
Serebii Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Day 1 patches that the Wii U had, or Pokémon Bank being closed down as it for screwed up, or XY needing a patch, or a patch needed to fix Skyward Sword, or Mario Party being recalled. Mistakes happen, they're natural. Fortune favours the brave and Nintendo is often timid, hiding behind a "we only release things that are perfect" facade. It's impossible for everything to be perfect. Obviously it's not ideal, but at the moment I feel it's the lesser of two evils. Would be good to see Nintendo experiment. I'm not saying patches aren't useful, as they are as seen in the case of XY and Skyward Sword. What I'm saying is throwing things out without due care and then thinking "oh if it's broken we'll just patch it" is the issue, and is become very common place. Launch day purchasers are now just beta testers these days Edited January 9, 2014 by Retro_Link Automerged Doublepost
Dcubed Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 Anyone who looks at emulators like SNES 9x and seriously considers them to be "perfect" has absolutely no right to judge the quality of an emulator. Those emulators are FAR from perfect and to this day are STILL riddled with age old problems (like Kirby Dreamland 3's "pseudo Hi-res" transparency effects or the timing and sprite priority issues with Megaman X2 which AFAIK are still problematic in SNES 9X) The only PC emulators that could possibly be considered "perfect" re-creations of the original consoles are Cycle Accurate emulators like Higan/BSNES or Exodus and those are very recent creations that require absolutely beastly PC hardware to run at full speed (like high end i7, minimum). Of course Nintendo take a different approach and choose to code their emulators to run each individual game perfectly, instead of trying to perfectly accurately emulate the hardware itself (which would not only take an eternity to make, but would also not be able to run on their consoles - hell even the PS4 and Xbone wouldn't have the grunt to do it either!) It's sadly not something that is really appreciated by most people, but the emulation quality with the Virtual Console (as far as commercial, non cycle-accurate emulation goes) is second to none. Making a perfect re-creation of a game is far more difficult than most people give credit for and requires a lot more development work and QA than most realise too (even though they've already created the foundation of their VC emulators, they do still need to put in extensive QA work into re-releasing them on Wii U to make sure that nothing gets broken) and the price of their games does also reflect the work that goes into the emulation writing process... Quite frankly, many of you might not appreciate quality emulation; but I do and I wouldn't want to see that sacrificed in order to make the games cheaper or get them out quicker. If the emulation quality isn't up to scratch, then I don't want it (there's a good reason why I avoided Backbone products like the plague and thankfully publishers agreed with me, because they went bankrupt!)
Rummy Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Day 1 patches that the Wii U had, or Pokémon Bank being closed down as it for screwed up, or XY needing a patch, or a patch needed to fix Skyward Sword, or Mario Party being recalled. Mistakes happen, they're natural. Fortune favours the brave and Nintendo is often timid, hiding behind a "we only release things that are perfect" facade. It's impossible for everything to be perfect. Obviously it's not ideal, but at the moment I feel it's the lesser of two evils. Would be good to see Nintendo experiment. I considered the Day 1 Wii U patch argument but even so - patching IS kind of industry standard now. Ever update your computer's OS? Ever get told by Xbox or PS3 that an update is available before you play your game? System updates for Wii U and 3DS? Should be thankful we've the ability to patch, there's many bugs in old games that never got fixed(though I tend to love them for the glitch stuff they bring). As for this individual emulator thing - is anyone really considering this? I think, as stated, the main reason is an issue of hacking. Wrapping each game as its own standalone means you don't have an emulator available for hacking other games onto later. Yes, console emulators on PC didn't run 100% of things(amusingly, they'd usually patch these later) - but they ran a majority of things. There isn't a majority of VC games out on Wii U, 3DS even Wii etc. Following - exactly how much work is there to be with each individual game? It's still emulating the same base thing. This is a digital age, the process will be fairly similar for each system's conversions - why would it ever not be? Once the process is worked out, it's going to be fairly consistent without any notable exceptions(as mentioned earlier by Dcubed the SA1 and CX4 chips...which I didn't know by name) - and even after it's a barrier overcome. AND - if Nintendo can't manage to do this; run their own games on their own systems - can you blame people for thinking they're useless? What CAN they do, if not even that? Still - my big wish is for the indies and 3rd parties(not personally fussed about VC). Playing Rogue Legacy on my PC recently - something I got for less than a tenner; why can't Nintendo try and see some of these games that do well on Steam etc and moneyhat them onto the Wii U? I really think they should look at the Steam market and try and get some of the successful smaller titles on board. Edited January 9, 2014 by Retro_Link
Wii Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Looking at NES Remix, emulation doesn't look that hard. They've just literally ripped code from games doing as little as mirroring levels. There was a Mario level that played instead of left to right, it plays right to left. Just mirrored. Even the HUD with score and writing is backwards. Others have swapped out sprites. They had no problems here. I feel games games like this are easy cash grabs. Like was said if someone in their bedroom in the 90's could make an emulator, I'm fairly confident in this day and age someone from Nintendo's 7,000 strong workforce can perfect it. I wouldn't and don't believe a word from Nintendo. They lie all the time. Only the other day they were lying about why online multiplayer wasn't included in SM3DW. http://gonintendo.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=130489 Nintendo on the lack of online play in Super Mario 3D World, testing online play since Galaxy Coming from a Game Informer interview with Mr. Koizumi... We’ve been testing online multiplayer since the days of Super Mario Galaxy, but with this title we really wanted to deliver an experience that you can share with family, friends, or your boyfriend or girlfriend in the same place like you did with the original NES. We really want players to have fun in front of the TV, talking while they help each other out or get in each other’s way. A comment ver batem from the conversation and most comments were disbelieving of Nintendo. "New Super Mario Bros. Wii, NSMB2, NSMBU all had multiplayer, and all required you to play it locally. They've beat this excuse like a dead horse". I've been meaning to ask, because this is the only Gaming forum I go on... what actually is the situation like on other forums?... Surely not everyone on those can be happy with what Nintendo are doing at the moment? Do you not get the same sort of discussions happening elsewhere? If there's something that other forums are doing that we are not, then any suggestions would be more than welcome. This place is like heaven compared to other websites and forums. Places like gonintendo forbid certain discussions because of the war that breaks out. Sites like ign, gamespot, neogaf and mynintendonews are full of trolls and no just like here people are far from happy with what Nintendo are doing. I have to agree with dazzybee. I know nothing about what the GC sold, or the Wii or how much percentage of sales was what which affects this studio and this third party and this is the reason Nintendo suck etc. To me, this place has become so boring. I'm not suggesting that people bury their heads in the sand and we ignore the poor sales and the reasons behind them - far from it. I'm sure people interested in that side of it really enjoy discussing that - and that's great. But what I am so tired of seeing is every single fucking thread being derailed by the same thing. And it's always the same people. I just want to come on here and discuss games, consoles, up and coming releases and having a bit of a laugh with other members but I haven't been able to do that for a long time now. Just look at the recent posts outside of this thread - hardly anyone is talking about games anymore. And the amount of people who used to post frequently are no where to be seen. It's hardly surprising as it's getting to the point where I don't feel like visiting here each day either. Whilst I appreciate the Wii U situation is bleak, I would like to think that the Nintendo thread of a gaming forum would be looking at the positives of the company and trying to remain upbeat about the good things we know are coming this year. Instead we just get arguments, snide comments, sales discussion, the game pad is useless and the online is useless discussion instead. Sad times. You think this is bad, you should try visiting other sites. At least we're civil to each other on this site and get along for the most part. Things are bad and people don't even talk about the half of it. Just in the last day or 2 we're hearing of more games we won't be getting. Aliens and the next Castlevania are 2 that immediately spring to mind. Edited January 9, 2014 by Wii
Rummy Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 Looking at NES Remix, emulation doesn't look that hard. They've just literally ripped code from games doing as little as mirroring levels. There was a Mario level that played instead of left to right, it plays right to left. Just mirrored. Even the HUD with score and writing is backwards. Others have swapped out sprites. They had no problems here. I feel games games like this are easy cash grabs. Like was said if someone in their bedroom in the 90's could make an emulator, I'm fairly confident in this day and age someone from Nintendo's 7,000 strong workforce can perfect it. I wouldn't and don't believe a word from Nintendo. They lie all the time. Only the other day they were lying about why online multiplayer wasn't included in SM3DW. http://gonintendo.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=130489 A comment ver batem from the conversation and most comments were disbelieving of Nintendo. Talking can be done with the Gamepad online - chat in need for speed was pretty cool, I was actually impressed with how...simple it was. I understand their point is about local etc blahblah, but there still could be that online element in addition to all else. I think they really need to work hard to get the Wii U into a decent online console. As for the thing about a someone doing it in their bedroom on a PC in the 90s, the more apt example is that people have done it on Nintendo's own hardware with the homebrew channel/Wii. Even for emulation of non-nintendo systems! It was even done on DS flashcarts as well iirc(though some greater limitations for certain systems there iirc due to DS hardware). If it can be done by devs in the community - why is it so hard for Nintendo to do themselves with their own products? I do agree they're easy cash grabs(and why I don't particularly like the idea) - but they're also filling for people feeling disappointment in their system(in addition to being a possibility of being a brand new experience for newer gamers.). I do think a number of Wii U sales traded on nostalgia value, and some of those purchasers might feel let down - the WiiU like any product needs good feeling and use amongst its consumers to keep being viable. These issues about sales and support(each feeding into the other) are because people aren't feeling the system - mine's not even setup atm! There could be people out there in a similar boat, though if they had their classic nostalgia titles it might be setup, and they might be playing it more regularly, and it might be at the forefronts of their minds a bit more, and so next time they see an advert or reminder of a Wii U game...it could be one sale they might not have had? Many leaps of faith, of course. I can hope, though.
Aneres11 Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 At least we're civil to each other on this site and get along for the most part. I'm afraid I disagree. The way people talk to and about each other on here at times is frankly childish. Embarrassing.
Sheikah Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Anyone who looks at emulators like SNES 9x and seriously considers them to be "perfect" has absolutely no right to judge the quality of an emulator. Those emulators are FAR from perfect and to this day are STILL riddled with age old problems (like Kirby Dreamland 3's "pseudo Hi-res" transparency effects or the timing and sprite priority issues with Megaman X2 which AFAIK are still problematic in SNES 9X) The only PC emulators that could possibly be considered "perfect" re-creations of the original consoles are Cycle Accurate emulators like Higan/BSNES or Exodus and those are very recent creations that require absolutely beastly PC hardware to run at full speed (like high end i7, minimum). Of course Nintendo take a different approach and choose to code their emulators to run each individual game perfectly, instead of trying to perfectly accurately emulate the hardware itself (which would not only take an eternity to make, but would also not be able to run on their consoles - hell even the PS4 and Xbone wouldn't have the grunt to do it either!) It's sadly not something that is really appreciated by most people, but the emulation quality with the Virtual Console (as far as commercial, non cycle-accurate emulation goes) is second to none. Making a perfect re-creation of a game is far more difficult than most people give credit for and requires a lot more development work and QA than most realise too (even though they've already created the foundation of their VC emulators, they do still need to put in extensive QA work into re-releasing them on Wii U to make sure that nothing gets broken) and the price of their games does also reflect the work that goes into the emulation writing process... Quite frankly, many of you might not appreciate quality emulation; but I do and I wouldn't want to see that sacrificed in order to make the games cheaper or get them out quicker. If the emulation quality isn't up to scratch, then I don't want it (there's a good reason why I avoided Backbone products like the plague and thankfully publishers agreed with me, because they went bankrupt!) I would say 99%, even above that figure play flawlessly on SNES9X, and I say that after having played the shit out of tons of games on emulator back in the day. And if they really are taking so long to release because they're trying to obtain (frankly ludicrous) levels of perfection on simple 2D games then they're doing it wrong. Totally. If there is tweaking needing to be done I don't see how it would take so long, especially given that they are the professionals. Edited January 9, 2014 by Sheikah
Dcubed Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 Looking at NES Remix, emulation doesn't look that hard. They've just literally ripped code from games doing as little as mirroring levels. There was a Mario level that played instead of left to right, it plays right to left. Just mirrored. Even the HUD with score and writing is backwards. Others have swapped out sprites. They had no problems here. I feel games games like this are easy cash grabs. Like was said if someone in their bedroom in the 90's could make an emulator, I'm fairly confident in this day and age someone from Nintendo's 7,000 strong workforce can perfect it. I wouldn't and don't believe a word from Nintendo. Psst. NES Remix uses the same emulators as on the VC, just with modified ROMs and custom post-processing effects...
Ike Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 All I know is that none of us here knows what Nintendo is doing. They could be sitting on the entire backlog or a group of Nintendo's devs sit there Friday 5pm and realise they need to port a game over for next Thursday and have to prep for the PR release on Monday so they need to throw something together or all we know. Everyone seems to arguing about their own made up theories at this point so let's all agree that Nintendo's current strategy sucks and let's move on.
Sheikah Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 Yeah it does suck, and really we have no idea of knowing just what they're doing and how much effort it takes them. All we can do is use our own experience with emulators to guess at least the effort on the technical (but not marketing) side.
Ike Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 I'm sure the emulators available on PCs took time to build as well, they all didn't have 100% compatibility at first, heck some still don't, but they've been around for decades now and a lot reuse other emulators code to run, it's not exactly fair to compare them in a way. There's a ton of VC games I would like to play but unfortunately we're stuck with what we're given. We would be better off making protests on Miiverse or the Club Nintendo surveys rather than fighting on here though. But hey, at least we finally got Earthbound!
Blade Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 I couldn't agree with you more. A question to those of you who are in the know: There was talk of an attachment that would improve the battery life of the Wii U. What is it? Is it available in Europe? I guess I could just plug it in, but I get a wee bit annoyed by wires getting in the way. Also also, not sure if this one should be in the eShop thread, but I've already started sooo...Nano Assault for Wii U. Worth it at the current price of about 7 quid? I'm not one to get eShop titles, so I know little about it. Finally, last I saw, Assassins Creed 3 was 7 quid on eShop, too. Any decent? I've never bothered playing any of the games...can't tell if it's my thing or not. Might get Deus Ex instead. I thought AC 3 was awful. Yes the story was interesting but the gameplay for me was so dull and uninspiring. Check out the AC3 thread for a variety of opinions. Quite a few people did enjoy the game a lot. Check the demo out for Nano Assault. I tried it out the other day and now tempted to get the full game. The demo was fun!
Ike Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 A question to those of you who are in the know: There was talk of an attachment that would improve the battery life of the Wii U. What is it? Is it available in Europe? I guess I could just plug it in, but I get a wee bit annoyed by wires getting in the way. This? Or from the Nintendo store. Seems to be sold out everywhere though. There was a 3rd party attachments by Nyoko but they never made it outside the US. Not that I would want to use a 3rd party battery, but that's just me.
Agent Gibbs Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 I bought the battery attachement from the french amazon site (before they listed it here) and it ended up costing about £25 Before we all know how poor the battery life is on the WiiU game pad , i've had it die on me while playing before. With the new battery pack in i've never had it run out on me or need charging, and i played Arkham Origins for about 5-6hours straight whilst on holiday and i think it was showing as half full on the indicator when i checked before switching off! so i'd highly recomend it really it should have been shipped with the battery in it, it cost me £25 but surely to nintendo that cost will be closer to £5-10 and they could have absorbed that into the WiiU cost
Pestneb Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 really it should have been shipped with the battery in it, it cost me £25 but surely to nintendo that cost will be closer to £5-10 and they could have absorbed that into the WiiU cost agreed, I imagine the battery we got was the basic package one, they probably decided to stick to the basic battery for the premium package to reduce losses/keep price down for consumers. As I've said plenty of times, I'm totally fine with the battery as it is, it's useful at times when the red light appears to know its time to go find something else to do! question for earlier adopters though - has battery life become shorter? Or has it stayed consistent?
Andyliini Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 Retro Studios hiring for new people. Didn't check Nintendo's Job Board myself, but this is definitely not for Donkey Kong, as that game is just around the corner. The next game might just be under development already. Intelligent Systems moved into it's own building. So far, they have been developing in the same building as Nintendo RnD. Maybe they are expanding, too. With these, and Monolith Soft also hiring for new people, nad also Next Level Games officially becoming second party -developer, Nintendo seems to be expanding heavily. But is it a bit late?
Shorty Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 I hope it's something bigger and better than Donkey Kong. DKCR was fun and all, but Retro are capable of so much more than revisiting the Snes era. God, the things I would do for Metroid Prime 4.
Andyliini Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 For me, Metroid prime is done and finished, no reason to dig it out from it's grave. A new kind of Metroid, that is entirely different thing. Personally, I would like Retro to do 3D Donkey Kong, in vein of Donkey Kong 64, thus completing their second Trilogy. They, they should go for their next project, whatever it is.
Goron_3 Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 I hope it's something bigger and better than Donkey Kong. DKCR was fun and all, but Retro are capable of so much more than revisiting the Snes era. God, the things I would do for Metroid Prime 4. Agreed. There is enough talent at Retro to maximise the Wii U's hardware and create a truly stunning game.
Happenstance Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 I'd prefer to see them create a new IP. Give the Wii U another new title from a popular dev thats moving away from the established franchises.
Kav Posted January 10, 2014 Posted January 10, 2014 I'd prefer to see them create a new IP. Give the Wii U another new title from a popular dev thats moving away from the established franchises. I'd like to see an original IP from them too, not because it's a move away from established franchises but simply because I feel they've earned their chance at doing their own thing an showing us what ideas an thoughts they have themselves as opposed to sticking to an outline set by an existing franchise.
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