National Pride

[jayseven]

I was watching frequent Mock The Week panelist Andy Parsons' stand-up last night, and I thought he came across as a bit of a closet bigot. He ended his show with the mantra "I'm english, and I don't like anything foreign. I just want my cup of tea, pint of beer and plate of chips. Three of our greatest imports ever" (from memory). While he was being fairly sardonic, he was still speaking of a national pride based on disillusioned idea of heritage, something the US is much worse at considering they're all bloody immigrants.

 

But today I've realised that I really don't give a shit about being English/British in the slightest. That English is predominantly the main spoken language in trade around the world bothers me little, it only annoys me more that we have a culture so determined not to be arsed learning a second language.

 

To me being a person is much more worthwhile.

 

I currently live down an 'alleyway' (the accurate word for it eludes me right now) and on the way home tonight I happened to enter it shortly after a couple of grand skinheads who were going on about how being english meant this and that... and I couldn't find myself agreeing with any of them.

 

Perhaps it's growing up with this forum, I've just accepted that there are boundaries beyond those set up by passport control offices. I see nationality as the smallest common denominator between me and my friends, with interests, hobbies and mindsets being the foremost determiners for my friendships.

 

So, in an attempt to make this a topic, do you feel any national pride at all? What, specificially, is it that makes you so darned pleased to have been born in whatever combined hectares that creates your flagged domain?

[chairdriver]

To me being a person is much more worthwhile.

Thanks. Like. Yes.

[Arnieboy]

Personally i think Andy Parsons is a poor excuse for a comedian, he isn't funny...at all.

 

As for National Pride, a bit i suppose, i'm pleased to be English but then again if i had been born in America or France or Australia i'd be pleased with that too.

Most people i think have at least a bit of national pride, even if they don't realise it.

 

I like this country, it's nicely sized, we have a good standard of living, we have hardly any deadly animals or insects to worry about and our weather is probably the calmest in the sense that we don't get majorly sized earthquakes or tornados and the like.

I must admit i do defend our English cuisine, (sunday roasts and fry ups :p) and i like our currency and the fact that we drive on the 'right' side of the road.

 

But in terms of pure national pride i think we do have the least in that respect, but for numerous reasons.

The country as it is now is occupied by chavs, benefit scroungers, illegal immigrants and greedy politicians, we have a queen but most people probably don't care, we're probably the least religious country in the world, the worst for handling our drink, the worst for underage pregnancies, the most leniant country in terms of scroungers, border control and also jail sentences and punishment for crime.

 

Personally, i like where i live, this country and i don't plan on going anywhere. So i guess i do have a fair bit of national pride, English and proud of it.

 

Oh and in response to the multiple language thing, i personally believe it's up to choice, i have no intention of learning another language, not saying i wouldn't like to though. What gets me is when people visit other countries and expect them to speak english, that's not on, your there and you respect the local language.

 

Tl;dr: England has a lot of flaws but i jolly well like it.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Arnieboy

[Ashley]

I can't ever recall loving living here, but nor do I hate it and I also appreciate how we have it a lot better off than a lot of places and I'm appreciative of that (and of being a native speaker of English).

 

But I do find the notion of cultural/national identities interesting from an academic point of view. A lot of my work focused on these issues that I seemingly have little to talk about.

 

Although I do like feeling more like (warning, clichéd gag worthy moment) 'a global citizen' than a British one. I'm British, I go to uni with a whole bunch of different nationalities (in our class of 30 there's French, Chinese, Swedish, Spanish and others), most of my popular culture products I consume are American, I'm learning Japanese, I use Italian curse words toward my brother in the presence of my nan/mother etc etc. I like that. One of the reasons I like living in London. You hear people moan "there's too many foreigners" or even complaints about hearing too many foreign languages spoken but I like it personally. I like hearing a plethora of languages and trying to guess what they are.

 

Anyway...

[Paj!]

I don't get National Pride.

 

Really.

 

I'm Scottish. Someone else is French. *shrug* Why would I be proud of being Scottish? I just don't. I just am.

 

The concept also reminds me of football hooligans.

[Ganepark32]

I'm not someone who has a strong sense of national pride. In fact, its pretty much safe to say that being 'Scottish' doesn't mean much to me and nor does being 'British'. Its just one of the many labels that we as people give ourselves to differentiate ourselves from others on the social level for what ever reason. As you say J7, being a person, an individual, is more important because it's kind of like the saying "Can't see the tree for the forest" and by labelling yourself and having this sense of national pride, I feel that you lose part of your individuality in becoming part of something large and encompassing.

 

I've met people who have a really strong sense of national pride and they really grind my gears. One guy I know from college is a heavy SNP supporter and during the last national elections here in Scotland, wouldn't stop going on about how SNP are right for Scotland and how we need independence from the UK and blah, blah, blah. Needless to say the words "Shut the f**k up!" were uttered on every occasion he spoke about stuff like that. Really, I just don't see the point in being all nationalistic. I'm not saying I don't understand it (its all about showing unity and what not) but it just doesn't matter to me at all. If someone asks who I am, and specifically if that person is not from the UK, I don't say I'm Scottish or British, I tell them who I am on a more social/personal/philosophical level as that's what matters to me.

 

Coincidentally, I've been doing a report for Uni on national identity and its social psychological significance in the context of in-groups and how there's a correlation between the strength of national identity and an ability to overestimate distances between towns in Scotland and England in comparison to estimating the distances between towns within Scotland. The experiment we did wasn't particularly interesting but the results and some of the literature is when they specifically show that there really is psychological significance for making salient the borders between countries for some people; that they split one nationality from the other and that the other nationality is more often than not considered as different, mostly in a negative light, in comparison.

 

Whats even more interesting, at least to me, is that if you construe the social/national categories to get rid of Scottish and English for example and replace it with British for a comparison with any other country, say Germany or France, these ideas of national pride mingle to give a sense of British pride rather than the individual national differences of Scottish and English. Just very interesting I feel.

[Wesley]

You kind of missed his punchline...

 

It was (after saying chips, beer and tea), "Which ironically, are all foreign."

 

I don't think he came across as a closet bigot.

 

I don't have any national pride.

 

I'm a human being that was born on this part of our small hunk of rock.

[LostOverThere]

I didn't choose to be born where I was - Why would I be proud of something I couldn't control?

 

It's not like I'm proud to be born in the 20th century...

[Nicktendo]

Nationalism is a poor excuse for an ideology.

[Daft]

Andy Parsons is the Devil.

[Oxigen_Waste]

I didn't choose to be born where I was - Why would I be proud of something I couldn't control?

 

This. This is what I've always thought. Thank you for agreeing!

 

Nationalism is a poor excuse for an ideology.

 

Nationalism doesn't always entail what you're thinking about. Ghandi's whole political agenda was one of nationalist overtones, which did not in anyway mean that he thought they were superior or better... boiled down to it's bare essentials, nationalism is merely an ideology which defends the notion that any one nation should belong (and therefore be harnessed by) to those who hail from it. All ethnocentric beliefs came later, afterbirth, if you will.

 

But I agree, yes, most nationalist ideologies aren't like that and tend to be, well... biased. :wink:

[Nicktendo]

Nationalism doesn't always entail what you're thinking about. Ghandi's whole political agenda was one of nationalist overtones, which did not in anyway mean that he thought they were superior or better... boiled down to it's bare essentials, nationalism is merely an ideology which defends the notion that any one nation should belong (and therefore be harnessed by) to those who hail from it. All ethnocentric beliefs came later, afterbirth, if you will.

 

But I agree, yes, most nationalist ideologies aren't like that and tend to be, well... biased. :wink:

 

Nationalism focuses on difference, usually prescribing to the belief that some people are 'better' than others. Granted, Ghandi was an exception, generally it's an ugly point of view held by people with a closed mind who are frightened of difference and change.

[Dan_Dare]

Like most of you I'm...largely indifferent to the fact that I'm English. I like living here etc etc but by and by it's not something I hold to. Patriotism is, to me, faintly repugnant stuff that basically consists of tolerable levels of bigotry. It's particularly stupid in England- historically an island prone to invasion, immigration and cultural absorption n all. There is no 'British Culture' to be proud of in my view.

 

That said, I'd rather live here than somewhere full of tropical plagues, lethal weather and what have you. And I'm a great believer in the social principals established by post war government in this country and wouldn't want to live somewhere like America without them.

[Shorty]

I find it hard to have national pride when this is what the internet thinks of us

 

[jayseven]

Lol.

 

As if we'd use cups.

[Mokong]

I'm Irish and usually make a deal of it when someone tries to tell me I'm not because I don't look it.

 

It's weird, guess it's cause technically I am mixed (Irish/Filipino), but I grew up in Ireland, I know nothing or little of Filipino history/culture, I don't even speak their language (my mother tried... and now the wife is trying... i'm just not good with languages.. Irish is the only non-English language I ever "got"). So it kinda pisses me off when people sometimes refer to me as a Filipino.

 

Or if I'm going on holiday to the Philippines, and someone wants to ask when I'm going they say "so when are you going back home"... it's not my home I'm already home.

 

Although whats even worse is sometimes on my Youtube vids I get comments from people who think I'm American... which is more annoying, not because I have anything against the US, but when I'm in the Philippines, they know I'm foregin, and to many other there foreign = american. Even when I say I'm Irish there's a 50/50 chance of people asking "where in the states is that?"

 

Also I suppose because I am big into sports also, I love to see Ireland perform well in something, and it pains me to see them do badly (like the football vs Russia last week). I also had dreams of playing football or maybe running in the Olympics for Ireland, not really for the finacial plus, but just to represent Ireland on an international level was something I always wanted to do (and hopefully do well)... obviously never came true, just wasn't good enough

 

For instance, I never get when some footballers "retire from international football" to concentrate on their club football.... well sure it is where they make their money, but to me it would be more important to me to play well for my international team.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Mokong

[The fish]

Although whats even worse is sometimes on my Youtube vids I get comments from people who think I'm American... which is more annoying, not because I have anything against the US, but when I'm in the Philippines, they know I'm foregin, and to many other there foreign = american. Even when I say I'm Irish there's a 50/50 chance of people asking "where in the states is that?"

 

In Europe I got told by an American that "I spoke English really good for a foreigner". Oh, the lolz.

 

I, personally, quite like this country (could be worse), but I don't feel any particular pride in being English/British. Being European, maybe, but that gets me stick in the this country because, ironically, everyone else is more nationalist. I find the idea of taking pride in being from a certain country rather ridiculous - my actually connection to the greatest of my fellow countrymen is purely coincidental. Be proud of what you and those you have helped or cared for have done, not what others have.

[MoogleViper]

For instance, I never get when some footballers "retire from international football" to concentrate on their club football.... well sure it is where they make their money, but to me it would be more important to me to play well for my international team.

 

I think it's more because they are getting older and want to be remembered as a great player and not for the poor performances they did in the last year of their career.

[Mundi]

Never been much of a national and find it pretty annoying when people use it as some rational reason to justify something.

 

Started to pretty much hate the whole "We are descended from vikings! What happened to our hot blood that kept countries trembling and bla bla bla bla" that some people get up here in the north.

Fucking congrats, you are more proud that your ancestors were pillagers and rapers, then of the things of worth they left the world.

 

All this talk of being in other countries reminded of something my brother told me: When he was visiting a friend in the USA, he was constantly being bothered by Americans that wanted to know what language he was speaking and were absolutely fascinated when they found out he was Icelandic and just about wanted to know everything about it.

In the end he got tired of it and started saying he was from Norway, no one cared about that.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

I'm not "proud" of being Danish. I love a lot of things about my country - its general political climate, the Danish/Scandinavian culture, our acceptance of "different" people among other things. But I don't like these things because they're Danish. I like being Danish because of those things. However, there are also things I dislike: Our social closed-ness, for instance. In other countries, people are just more socially open - you can actually talk to strangers on the street. It's hard to do that in Denmark. Ironically, despite our acceptance of people being different, it can be difficult to stand out in the crowd in Denmark.

 

On the other hand, there are also parts of other nations' cultures, values, ideas etc. that I both love and hate. I'd rather choose my nationality based on values than choose my values based on nationality.

[ipaul]

I find it hard to have national pride when this is what the internet thinks of us

 

 

Hey you leave them alone. Frosty Jacks is the drink of champions.

 

I always find anything above very mild patriotism to be a little bit suspect. Complete adoration for everything your country does is abhorrent. Being proud of certain values or principles is fine though, like the welfare state here, or secularism in the states.

 

On the subject of being mistaken for being from somewhere else, a lot of people at uni here in Southampton have not picked up on the fact that I'm from Newcastle at all. One person even said he just thought I was from London. In fairness, I think my (already mild) accent tends to disappear around strangers.

Edited October 12, 2010 by ipaul

[heroicjanitor]

That's a difficult question. I was just going to say I'm proud of being Irish but now I can't because I realise it doesn't make much sense. It's more that I'm happy to be Irish than proud of it, it's not like it's an achievement or anything. If Ireland do well in football I'm delighted but the same can be said of Manchester United(less so), who I have no connection to whatsoever. Ireland doing well means "they are doing us proud". But if you were to look at it as a group of people I have no connection to doing well, then I lose any incentive to watch them since they aren't even that good of a team, and I'd lose that group feeling of happiness when they do well. Being in the pub with friends for an Ireland match is awesome. I'm not willing to give that up, so I think I'll continue being "proud" of it.

 

I think it's because people look for things they have in common in order to connect, which is great as long as they don't exclude people who don't have this thing in common with them.

[Grazza]

For me, the best thing to do is to be proud of the good bits, but not overlook the bad things or think we're always in the right.

 

Take English apples, for instance - the Discovery, the Worcester. If they are not the best in the world, I don't know whose are. English trees, too, like the mighty Oak, make my heart soar.

 

As a British citizen, too, I can't help but be proud that this island stood alone against the Nazis. In the Battle of Britain, we took on the Luftwaffe elite and won! It was a case of sheer pluck and heart winning, and it's hard not to get goosebumps about that.

 

BUT we've also made mistakes. When you think you're always in the right, you get things like the invasion of Iraq. We do also have an enormous amount of chavs and yobs. I would say without a doubt I prefer the Europeans I meet to the average British youth. They just have more class and manners.

 

It could be said that Britain has always been organised to put economic, military and political power ahead of quality of life. But still, at the end of the day, when I'm watching Last Night of the Proms, and Land of Hope and Glory starts, the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. Faults or not, I'm English through and through.

[Jonnas]

I'm not "proud" of being Danish. I love a lot of things about my country - its general political climate, the Danish/Scandinavian culture, our acceptance of "different" people among other things. But I don't like these things because they're Danish. I like being Danish because of those things. However, there are also things I dislike: Our social closed-ness, for instance. In other countries, people are just more socially open - you can actually talk to strangers on the street. It's hard to do that in Denmark. Ironically, despite our acceptance of people being different, it can be difficult to stand out in the crowd in Denmark.

 

On the other hand, there are also parts of other nations' cultures, values, ideas etc. that I both love and hate. I'd rather choose my nationality based on values than choose my values based on nationality.

 

Pretty much this (though replacing Denmark with Portugal). I love my country, but it's not just because I was born here. I love our language, our history, our silly myths, our weather, our safety, and even the fact that we rarely feel superior towards other nations (except for the Spanish, very occasionally )

 

There are things I dislike, of course. Our justice and education systems are a mess, corruption and unprofessionalism are everywhere, everyone lacks ambition and confidence, and my last point is also a disadvantage: many people feel there are better things to do and invest in outside, ergo, they don't improve Portugal, which recreates the cycle for future generations.

 

For me, nationalism/patriotism isn't about being loyal to your country/region, it's being loyal to your culture. That includes recognizing it's strengths and flaws (as well as those of other cultures), otherwise you're nothing more than a fanatic.

 

One thing I noticed, though, is that there are nations with a bigger sense of patriotism than others. For example, Spain and the UK are countries composed of smaller autonomous regions, each with their own sense of identity. Very few of the people living there think of themselves as Spanish or British, but think of themselves as Galicians, or Scottish, or Welsh, or Catalonians, etc. This means they don't feel loyalty towards the country they're from (I've seen some Scots post here and state their mindset on being Scottish, instead of being from the UK). But since their own region has to answer to a bigger picture, they aren't loud about their nationalism either, since it's pointless to stay loyal to a region that isn't independent.

Meanwhile, countries like Ireland and Portugal actually feel united under a single independent nation, so their inhabitants aren't afraid to say they love their country, which would be just another autonomous region if under the rule of UK/Spain.

Maybe I'm just being narrow-minded, or had the wrong examples in front of me, but that's how I feel.

[Shorty]

I think it was someone on N-Europe who told a story of when they were visiting America and the national anthem came on while they were in a store. Everyone in the shop stopped still and put their hand up to their heart.

 

This terrifies me.