General Switch Discussion

[Sheikah]

A lot of Nintendo games already have some kind of "achievements" system built in-game these days. (Hyrule Warriors, Xenoblade 1, Miitopia, etc.)
Hell, Smash Bros has been doing it since the Gamecube days! How's that for "ahead of it's time"?
I'm not really fussed about an achievement system. It just seems like a big knob waving contest, really. But achievements that actually reward you with something in-game is way better! (Xenoblade gives you extra EXP, Smash rewards you with various goodies)

They're not the same though. Virtually every game gives you some kind of reward for doing stuff in game, whether it's an item or a trophy. The reason achievements/trophies work is because they exist outside of the game and people like to collect them. It is quite nice to be able to see at a glance which games people are into, so it works on that level too.

There's basically no reason for Nintendo not to have them there - people who don't want to bother with them can ignore them, after all. When game devs actually put thought into trophies they can work really well; encouraging you to do enjoyable challenges in games that you otherwise might not have even thought to do.

[Glen-i]

18 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

They're not the same though. Virtually every game gives you some kind of reward for doing stuff in game, whether it's an item or a trophy. The reason achievements/trophies work is because they exist outside of the game and people like to collect them. It is quite nice to be able to see at a glance which games people are into, so it works on that level too.

There's basically no reason for Nintendo not to have them there - people who don't want to bother with them can ignore them, after all. When game devs actually put thought into trophies they can work really well; encouraging you to do enjoyable challenges in games that you otherwise might not have even thought to do.

I'm not saying that adding them is an inherently bad thing, more stuff to play with is fine by me. I would likely use them if implemented.

That said, I doubt a mid-console revision is going to be the place where we see this on a Nintendo console. Developers will suddenly see themselves having to put in an achievement list. And how would it work when you've already played a game to death like I have? Will I suddenly get thousands of achievements? I doubt a lot of Switch games are programmed for this kind of thing.

So in reality, a lot of Switch games would just not have it in this scenario.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Glen-i

[Hero-of-Time]

4 hours ago, Glen-i said:

Hell, Smash Bros has been doing it since the Gamecube days! How's that for "ahead of it's time"?

Insomniac were doing it even before then. They had them in the PSOne Spyro games and continued to put them in every game they made after that, such as Ratchet & Clank and Resistance, even though trophy support wasn't a thing. I always used to love going for them all.

Nintendo will never do it though, which does bum me out a little. I'm still happy that they do put them in game though. Playing Pikmin 3 on the Switch with its achievements really gave the game some legs. What is a 10 hour game turned into a 30 hour one.

[Julius]

Yeah, agree with a lot of what has been said so far about trophies/achievements. They can add to the experience if done right, making you try things out in a game that you might not have otherwise, and can give you a great reason to keep playing after that initial run through the game, whether it be in the form of New Game+/another playthrough, challenging you to beat certain parts of the game in a certain time (such as races or speedruns), or in the post-game. 

On the flip side, as rightly mentioned by most again, there are a lot of cases where I think trophies aren't really as considered as they need to be. What I think really needs to be considered is the game's flow and design. Some of the ones in the Uncharted games that I've seen (kill X number of enemies hanging from a ledge, kill X number with X weapon), while shaking things up, actively go against the game's flow of being a fast-paced, linear, story-driven adventure, because you need to slow yourself down and go out of your way to do some of these when everything about the game is Naughty Dog screaming at you to keep going forwards. Also, in those games anyways, there are collectibles that already make you go out of your way and slow down to fully explore a location, which is a better example I think, as it makes sense contextually in the world of the game and doesn't get in the way of what the game is aiming for. 

I can't see Nintendo themselves pushing for trophies/achievements, but if someone came along willing to put that work in for the infrastructure then I think they might, and something I was thinking about a little while back was a unified achievement system between brands. We know that Discord is coming to PlayStation, they have a working relationship with Xbox, and if they got onboard with Nintendo, then I think a unified player achievement system which counts all of your trophies/achievements/Stars (that's totally what Nintendo achievements would have, right? Mario's Stars, Moons, and Suns?) towards one profile would be really neat, and I think it would be at that point that Nintendo might actually consider adding them in. 

At the same time, though, I can see why Nintendo aren't seemingly trying to push this in their games. I think of Breath of the Wild and how they handled getting all of the Korok seeds in that game, and not only is it clear that they don't care about completionists anyways, there's so much to collect in that game and Odyssey that it would enter the realm of stupidity in pushing players to pursue that. Which makes me think that not having them focus on the actual collectibles involved in all games might be best, and instead they can focus on pointing you towards cool things that you can find in the game instead; for example, finding Captain Toad in every world in Odyssey, or finding the Lord of the Mountain in Breath of the Wild, as these games are very much about exploration in their levels as is. For something like Xenoblade Chronicles I think it would be silly to ask players to complete all of the quests, considering just how many are missable, but quests do play a very active part in levelling you up in that game, so instead of asking players to do all of them, just point them towards completing X amount, which they will likely do playing the game anyways. 

Feel like I'm waffling now, but point is, I think if Nintendo ever do get an achievements system, I would be disappointed if they didn't put more thought into it than most other developers. Actively pushing players to 100% Breath of the Wild is an insane ask, but pointing them towards cool things in the world (heck, you could make it like Talkatoo in Super Mario Odyssey or something, so that players don't need to actively look at their achievements to see what's next, and in something like Breath of the Wild it could point you towards things in your general area) I feel would suit Nintendo's design much better. 

But I don't think they'll do it just because they want to, I think there has to be someone else involved for them to even consider it. 

[Ronnie]

Summed up well. As a two sentence summary of my thoughts... I just don't think they like the idea of people mindlessly grinding in their games, like I just did in ME1. They openly ridiculed the idea of grinding in modern games with the prize for getting 900 korok seeds in BOTW. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Ronnie

[Sheikah]

A perfect example of trophies down well are those in Outer Wilds. Many interesting trophies, with one even being awarded for landing your spaceship on an extremely fast moving object, which is quite challenging.

[darksnowman]

48 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Summed up well. As a two sentence summary of my thoughts... I just don't think they idea of people mindlessly grinding in their games, like I just did in ME1. They openly ridiculed the idea of grinding in modern games with the prize for getting 900 korok seeds in BOTW. 

Not a fan of this aspect either, but if Nintendo were to implement some system-wide Stars thing that's visible on your profile I'd inevitably start grinding for the less savoury ones. Odyssey, you're back in the slot! Korok Seeds? Link me to a guide and let's get this done! I've little doubt I'd be too weak to resist the extrinsic incentive.  

[Ronnie]

9 minutes ago, darksnowman said:

Not a fan of this aspect either, but if Nintendo were to implement some system-wide Stars thing that's visible on your profile I'd inevitably start grinding for the less savoury ones. Odyssey, you're back in the slot! Korok Seeds? Link me to a guide and let's get this done! I've little doubt I'd be too weak to resist the extrinsic incentive.  

It's easy to say "don't like trophies? don't go for them" but I'm similar in that I'd find it hard to resist too.

[Julius]

2 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

It's easy to say "don't like trophies? don't go for them" but I'm similar in that I'd find it hard to resist too.

We are apes with lizard brains who have developed in search of that dopamine kick. 

Dread it. Run from it. Achievements still arrive. 

[Glen-i]

10 minutes ago, darksnowman said:

Not a fan of this aspect either, but if Nintendo were to implement some system-wide Stars thing that's visible on your profile I'd inevitably start grinding for the less savoury ones. Odyssey, you're back in the slot! Korok Seeds? Link me to a guide and let's get this done! I've little doubt I'd be too weak to resist the extrinsic incentive.  

Now, this is an interesting angle.

At what point does it become getting some mileage from a game you enjoy to obsessing over getting everything you can.

[Aneres11]

I think I read something somewhere years ago on the Trophy / Achievement discussion where Nintendo said they didn’t want to tell people how to play their games. That’s why they don’t add them in. 
And I think at the time, people were saying fine for your own games but put them in for the third party games when they’re there on other systems. 

[LazyBoy]

As @Aneres11 says, Achievements are just not very Nintendo. If you were looking fro something system-wide, I can imagine them doing something like the balloon challenge in Odyssey - we make our own achievements for each other. 

[Ronnie]

The closest they ever got was probably the 5 or 6 achievements in each of the NintendoLand mini games, but that whole title was very arcadey and about replaying the same games over and over so probably suited it.

[Dcubed]

4 hours ago, darksnowman said:

Not a fan of this aspect either, but if Nintendo were to implement some system-wide Stars thing that's visible on your profile I'd inevitably start grinding for the less savoury ones. Odyssey, you're back in the slot! Korok Seeds? Link me to a guide and let's get this done! I've little doubt I'd be too weak to resist the extrinsic incentive.  

This is precisely why Nintendo doesn’t have them.  Miyamoto in particular had been outspoken about his disdain for the use of extrinsic motivation in games...

That being said, that was Iwata’s Nintendo... Those days are sadly gone now; so I wouldn’t be surprised if this stance ends up being eroded away as the shareholders continue to get what they want out of Nintendo.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Dcubed

[Ashley]

For what it's worth, it might be good if Miyamoto got less of what he wants sometimes...

[Sheikah]

This is precisely why Nintendo doesn’t have them.  Miyamoto in particular had been outspoken about his disdain for the use of extrinsic motivation in games...
That being said, that was Iwata’s Nintendo... Those days are sadly gone now; so I wouldn’t be surprised if this stance ends up being eroded away as the shareholders continue to get what they want out of Nintendo.

It's weird though because if you read on, he actually justifies achievements when it's pointed out that they're in a Nintendo title:

"Not, maybe, in the overall sense that you're talking about," replies Miyamoto. "It just fit Wii Sports Resort. The stamps within Wii Sports Resort are more of an impetus to play in different ways and to try and do different things."

That last part is true of any game, good achievements can encourage you to play in different ways.

[Dcubed]

9 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

It's weird though because if you read on, he actually justifies achievements when it's pointed out that they're in a Nintendo title:

"Not, maybe, in the overall sense that you're talking about," replies Miyamoto. "It just fit Wii Sports Resort. The stamps within Wii Sports Resort are more of an impetus to play in different ways and to try and do different things."

That last part is true of any game, good achievements can encourage you to play in different ways.

The Wii Sports Resort stamps are NOT extrinsic motivation though.  They are part of the game itself.  They aren’t an external reward that you can show off; they don’t add to an external scoring system, separate from the game itself.

It’s that separation that Miyamoto is against; and it’s that separation that makes them so incredibly manipulative & dangerous.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

11 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

The Wii Sports Resort stamps are NOT extrinsic motivation though.  They are part of the game itself.  They aren’t an external reward that you can show off; they don’t add to an external scoring system, separate from the game itself.

It’s that separation that Miyamoto is against; and it’s that separation that makes them so incredibly manipulative & dangerous.

I mean, it's basically the same thing (both stamps and trophies motivate players to do things they otherwise probably wouldn't have done), just the achievements can't be viewed without booting up the game again, which is kind of frustrating. There's also plenty of games where you can show off to friends, for instance in the form of high scores tables. Mario Oddyssey has this. So it's not like Nintendo are averse to letting people boast.

My guess? They want to differentiate themselves from the competition, or they simply can't be bothered to put in the work.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Sheikah

[Cube]

My predictions for Switch Pro.

 

- Better screen

- Handheld mode runs closer to docked mode

- Docked mode runs through 4k upscaling chip

- no other performance improvements

- Minor physical design changes

- Is just a hardware revision, name is just "Nintendo Switch", replaces current model.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mandalore]

If Nintendo were to implement an achievement/trophy system, I'd hope they would look at all the stuff which doesn't work so well with Xbox/PlayStation ones. Banning developers from putting in any multiplayer based ones would be great.

Could see them reintroducing the Virtual Console on a future console with added achievements. Everyone has already bought the games countless times, what better way to make people buy them all over again?

[Sheikah]

9 minutes ago, Mandalore said:

If Nintendo were to implement an achievement/trophy system, I'd hope they would look at all the stuff which doesn't work so well with Xbox/PlayStation ones. Banning developers from putting in any multiplayer based ones would be great.

Could see them reintroducing the Virtual Console on a future console with added achievements. Everyone has already bought the games countless times, what better way to make people buy them all over again?

I think there's definitely things they could do to improve them. They could possibly make trophies like actual Smash Brothers trophies that you can rotate (although that would possibly put third party devs on the spot by giving them extra work to do).

One thing that I've seen done, but only rarely, is to put downloadable rewards tied to trophies. For instance in Final Fantasy XIII, if you unlocked the platinum trophy you could download a unique PS3 theme from the disc. That's a much better way of rewarding content than tying it to purchasable amiibo, anyhow.

[darksnowman]

1 hour ago, Mandalore said:

If Nintendo were to implement an achievement/trophy system, I'd hope they would look at all the stuff which doesn't work so well with Xbox/PlayStation ones. Banning developers from putting in any multiplayer based ones would be great.

Could see them reintroducing the Virtual Console on a future console with added achievements. Everyone has already bought the games countless times, what better way to make people buy them all over again?

[Nicktendo]

1 hour ago, Sheikah said:

One thing that I've seen done, but only rarely, is to put downloadable rewards tied to trophies. For instance in Final Fantasy XIII, if you unlocked the platinum trophy you could download a unique PS3 theme from the disc. That's a much better way of rewarding content than tying it to purchasable amiibo, anyhow.

I would love to see more of this. 1000G or a Platinum is nice, but a little something extra or a "well done, thanks for playing" would be great from any of the major companies. 

[bob]

I have no interest in getting a switch pro, whatever it costs. I play exclusively in hand-held mode, and don't take care if something that tiny is 720p or 1080 or 4k.

I can't tell the difference in frame rate unless it drops into single figures either, so that doesn't bother me.

Anything with fancy graphics I'll buy on PS4.

[Julius]

One of the supposed leakers that broke the news of a Pro announcement being pre-E3 now has reason to be unsure about that actually being the case: 

It's going to be interesting to see how this shakes out in the end. If it is coming and aiming for the end of this year, you'd imagine production would be starting soon, so the later a reveal is pushed back the higher the risk will be of details leaking. And you'd imagine third parties might want to share details of any games they have in store for it sooner rather than later. 

But it's Nintendo. No idea what they have up their sleeves 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Julius