Fierce_LiNk Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 A friend of mine posted this on facebook, along with this: "Shocking, this to me is child abuse." It's definitely emotional blackmail. What I didn't like about it is that you could interpret this as the Mother using the religious aspect to impose her "own" ideas onto the kid. So, maybe she doesn't like magic herself, so she's using the religion to give her an excuse to stop the kid playing the toy. Control. Lots of ways of looking at it.
Raining_again Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 My uncle and aunt in law won't let their kids read the Harry Potter series because it has magic in it. (quite commonplace over here)
Magnus Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 "Who likes Harry Potter? God? Or Satan?" She seems like the kind of mom all the other moms talk about behind her back.
Ashley Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 Not really the point, but I think that's the first time I've seen a depiction of Adam and Eve old and not-naked.
ReZourceman Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 I hope the kid's friend asks him what he did with the figure, finds out he threw it away and then..... ----------- Everything I hate about that kind of religious STUFF roled into one despicable, vile, horrible video.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 Is teaching your kid absurd untruths and building their entire world view on ridiculous myths child abuse? Ultimately a matter of definition, I guess. Is it horrible parenting? Indubitably.
Rummy Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 Abuse? Not really. A bit mental? Yeah kinda. Parents will always raise their kids as they think best etc. Tbh, here, she presents him with options and choices to make his own decision; it's a bit of emotional blackmail as you say Flink - the kid doesn't/won't realise but it's not really abuse at all. I'd wonder about it coming back to bite her in the arse when the kid gets older and thinks a bit more, though. Is teaching your kid absurd untruths and building their entire world view on ridiculous myths child abuse? Ultimately a matter of definition, I guess. Is it horrible parenting? Indubitably. It it horrible parenting if you genuinely believe what you're teaching?
Cube Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 My uncle and aunt in law won't let their kids read the Harry Potter series because it has magic in it. (quite commonplace over here) Are they allowed to read the Bible? That has lots of magic in it.
Rummy Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 Are they allowed to read the Bible? That has lots of magic in it. Cmon now Cube, those are miracles, not magic.
jayseven Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 I think there are a lot of positives to bringing a child up with religion, but the elements that are socially frowned upon are what are focused on - that is, the part of religion that disagrees with social norms. I think there are far more parents feeding their children macdonalds or letting them watch TV all day, or spoiling them or swearing/fighting in front of them - or teaching them "would of" instead of "would've". These are more severe forms of abuse. But then I'm probably wrong.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted July 15, 2013 Posted July 15, 2013 It it horrible parenting if you genuinely believe what you're teaching? I did consider that as well, but I reached the conclusion that yes, it is. To take an extreme example, I've seen documentaries about parents physically beating their children because (apropos, incidentally) they believed them to be possessed by demons - they were beating them in order to exorcise the evil spirits. Good intentions are admirable, but in the hands of ignorance and delusion, even the purest of intentions can have devastating results. Are they allowed to read the Bible? That has lots of magic in it. God magic, which is a whole other bucket of fish entirely. If you have to ask why, you're clearly a heretic and a witch and must be burned on the stake. I think there are a lot of positives to bringing a child up with religion, but the elements that are socially frowned upon are what are focused on - that is, the part of religion that disagrees with social norms. I think there are far more parents feeding their children macdonalds or letting them watch TV all day, or spoiling them or swearing/fighting in front of them - or teaching them "would of" instead of "would've". These are more severe forms of abuse. But then I'm probably wrong. But the thing is, the good aspects of religion can easily be separated entirely from it and in fact become more meaningful as a result. While the end result may effectively be the same, I have more admiration for the person who does good because he finds it ethically right than the person who does good in either hopes of reward or fear of punishment or because of divine command.
Diageo Posted July 16, 2013 Posted July 16, 2013 The only part of a religion that makes it a religion is the belief and worship of supernatural deity, which in itself has little benefits compared to negatives. Any positives that can be found in religion, as Dannyboy said, can easily be removed from religion entirely and be taught by itself. Whether I consider it child abuse, not law-breaking child abuse but certainly deluded parenting.
Serebii Posted July 16, 2013 Posted July 16, 2013 (edited) For a period between the dark ages and as recently as the 19th century, the bible was taught as a narrative with the intent to guide you to live a positive live. Somehow, people have started to take it literally again, especially in the Americas. I have no problem with religion. I find it fascinating how humanity tried to explain its creation prior to the advent of science. What I have a problem with is indoctrination, bigotry and narrow-mindedness that occurs because of it. I mean hell, this has been going around the net again recently It's wrong to brainwash kids like this. Intolerance of people who do not share your beliefs is one of the problems I have with society today. Edited July 16, 2013 by Serebii
Supergrunch Posted July 16, 2013 Posted July 16, 2013 (edited) So I found the blog that uploaded this... I think some of you might be amused by the background picture. I also found this little bit of head-in-sandedness: God magic, which is a whole other bucket of fish entirely. If you have to ask why, you're clearly a heretic and a witch and must be burned on the stake. To be fair, I think the magic is considered to be heretical because only God has the authority or whatever to have magic, and so attempting to work magic yourself is going against his will. Edit: Hah, just realised the blog is an intentional parody, what a good case of Poe's law. Edited July 16, 2013 by Supergrunch
Iun Posted July 16, 2013 Posted July 16, 2013 So jump in the river and learn to swim GOD'S GONNA WASH AWAY ALL YOUR SINS!
Rummy Posted July 16, 2013 Posted July 16, 2013 I did consider that as well, but I reached the conclusion that yes, it is. To take an extreme example, I've seen documentaries about parents physically beating their children because (apropos, incidentally) they believed them to be possessed by demons - they were beating them in order to exorcise the evil spirits. Good intentions are admirable, but in the hands of ignorance and delusion, even the purest of intentions can have devastating results. There's a large difference between me calling you names and physically assaulting you. Beating children like that is definitely abuse. Disparraging them with words is too. However, the example isn't exactly some sort of malice directed AT the child, it's merely shaping their views/beliefs to be in line with that of your own as a parent. They might not believe in magic, they might believe it's heretical - I personally believe differentlu but who am I to judge their beliefs as any less valid than my own? To go far as to say teaching them to your children is abuse? I think it's just quite an extreme leap here.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted July 16, 2013 Posted July 16, 2013 There's a large difference between me calling you names and physically assaulting you. Beating children like that is definitely abuse. Disparraging them with words is too. However, the example isn't exactly some sort of malice directed AT the child, it's merely shaping their views/beliefs to be in line with that of your own as a parent. They might not believe in magic, they might believe it's heretical - I personally believe differentlu but who am I to judge their beliefs as any less valid than my own? To go far as to say teaching them to your children is abuse? I think it's just quite an extreme leap here. Do you think parents who beat their children to exorcise them consider it malice? I doubt it. The point is that a parent is (almost) always going to do what they think is best, but what they think is best just isn't necessarily what actually is best. Note that I didn't actually call it abuse, but I did make the leap to abuse because these children will have a life based on delusions, which I consider very likely harmful to their quality of life. I agree that a parent will raise their kids according to their own best beliefs - what else can they do? - but at the same time we have to acknowledge that far from all beliefs are equally good or even true. Another good example would be the religious groups who do not believe in blood transfusions or, heck, religious people who pray instead of ensuring proper medical attention; the absurd beliefs of such parents could and actually have resulted in the deaths of children who could've easily been saved. The more I think about it, the more I actually do lean towards considering it child abuse - or at least severe parental neglect.
Agent Gibbs Posted July 16, 2013 Posted July 16, 2013 Its not exactly child abuse as such, but its certainly mental torture of a child
Blade Posted July 16, 2013 Posted July 16, 2013 When I found out Santa wasnt real That was child abuse
Beast Posted July 16, 2013 Posted July 16, 2013 My uncle and aunt in law won't let their kids read the Harry Potter series because it has magic in it. (quite commonplace over here) I mean no offence when I say this but I can't stand people like that. It's just taking it to such extremes. I dislike religion but respect others who believe in it. One of the main reasons why I dislike religion is because of how people interpret it. Yes, it's interesting to see different types of interpretations but it's also pretty annoying as to how little or how much they stick to the words or how much they read between the lines. Some take it to violent extremes, which also annoy me. I know it's more to do with the person than the religion itself but it kind of does make one wonder whether that person (who takes religion to the extreme) would be so extreme if religion was not in their life. By the way, I realise I sound like a right twat and I apologise in advance if I caused any offence. This is why that a lot of the times, I don't like to discuss religion because I fear I might offend someone too much and it's the last thing I want to do! Its not exactly child abuse as such, but its certainly mental torture of a child But couldn't one argue that mental torture is child abuse? I mean, either mentally or physically, it's still a form of abuse, right?
Rummy Posted July 16, 2013 Posted July 16, 2013 Do you think parents who beat their children to exorcise them consider it malice? I doubt it. The point is that a parent is (almost) always going to do what they think is best, but what they think is best just isn't necessarily what actually is best. Note that I didn't actually call it abuse, but I did make the leap to abuse because these children will have a life based on delusions, which I consider very likely harmful to their quality of life. I agree that a parent will raise their kids according to their own best beliefs - what else can they do? - but at the same time we have to acknowledge that far from all beliefs are equally good or even true. Another good example would be the religious groups who do not believe in blood transfusions or, heck, religious people who pray instead of ensuring proper medical attention; the absurd beliefs of such parents could and actually have resulted in the deaths of children who could've easily been saved. The more I think about it, the more I actually do lean towards considering it child abuse - or at least severe parental neglect. Forgive me, I got lost within my own argument and had convinced myself you had called it abuse earlier. You're right and you called it horrible parenting. I was arguing as if you'd called it abuse. It's interesting, because whilst taking it to the extreme of abuse - I thought the argument of holding a belief genuinely and teaching it to your children is only logical(what else would you teach them?). However when I look at it stepped back, I think it a little less so. Personally I do judge on the surface 'bad parenting' but I always remind myself I haven't been there and I haven't the right. I'm sure I've got plenty I could judge or blame my own parents for, but at the same time many many things to be thankful for - both sides have made me me. So...I dunno. Really, I don't think the example given is abuse, but I also don't particularly feel able to call it 'bad' parenting. It may not be something I'd possibly do, but I really can't judge it with any real credibility. Its not exactly child abuse as such, but its certainly mental torture of a child Why is it mental torture, exactly? Where's the torture, really? It's weird that such extremes are jumped to(admittedly even by myself, assumedly) for something that really seems quite docile.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted July 16, 2013 Posted July 16, 2013 Forgive me, I got lost within my own argument and had convinced myself you had called it abuse earlier. You're right and you called it horrible parenting. I was arguing as if you'd called it abuse. It's interesting, because whilst taking it to the extreme of abuse - I thought the argument of holding a belief genuinely and teaching it to your children is only logical(what else would you teach them?). However when I look at it stepped back, I think it a little less so. Personally I do judge on the surface 'bad parenting' but I always remind myself I haven't been there and I haven't the right. I'm sure I've got plenty I could judge or blame my own parents for, but at the same time many many things to be thankful for - both sides have made me me. So...I dunno. Really, I don't think the example given is abuse, but I also don't particularly feel able to call it 'bad' parenting. It may not be something I'd possibly do, but I really can't judge it with any real credibility. Why is it mental torture, exactly? Where's the torture, really? It's weird that such extremes are jumped to(admittedly even by myself, assumedly) for something that really seems quite docile. I agree we need to be careful about judging without knowing the full story, but I disagree that we shouldn't be allowed to judge at all. No parents are perfect, of course, and I am certainly not quick to call anyone bad parents, especially considering how worried I am about being a bad parent myself in the future. However, there are some things which are simply so plainly wrong that I do not hesitate to judge it, and bringing your children up on delusions that could very likely harm their quality of life is one of them. As an addition, it's not merely the contents of the beliefs I'm against, but the dogmatic way in which they're taught. It instills these values as absolute truths and prevents the children from making up their own minds when they're old enough.
Rummy Posted July 16, 2013 Posted July 16, 2013 However, there are some things which are simply so plainly wrong that I do not hesitate to judge it, and bringing your children up on delusions that could very likely harm their quality of life is one of them. I don't necessarily disagree with this statement - but is the originally presented situation a part of this? Why is a belief in a God a delusion, or a belief in a god who disapproves of 'magic' a delusion? Why could it very likely harm a person's quality of life? There's many people who find solace and peace in religion, who find a better quality of life with it. Whilst I don't feel the same per se, I still can't say anything bad of it if it brings them peace. Also on a tangent of sorts; Are you own experiences a part of these things that are simply so plainly wrong? Have your parents ever said anything to you that you'd consider delusional, even if only in part? If yes, did you question it? I know I certainly have. However, I think that is just life. Our parents are not 100%, and we are not them. We are shaped by their influence but we are shaped by ourselves. We question and we evolve.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 I don't necessarily disagree with this statement - but is the originally presented situation a part of this? Why is a belief in a God a delusion, or a belief in a god who disapproves of 'magic' a delusion? Why could it very likely harm a person's quality of life? There's many people who find solace and peace in religion, who find a better quality of life with it. Whilst I don't feel the same per se, I still can't say anything bad of it if it brings them peace. In the harshest of terms I consider any belief in supernatural concepts in the face of lacking evidence a delusion, but I have little to no qualms with the common beliefs of the majority of religious people; I usually find a lot of them are fairly rational in their practical life, and that's what matters to me. Their private beliefs are none of my concern, and if believing in a god gives them a better quality of life, far be it from me to interfere with that. It's when such beliefs affect others negatively that I must protest. As a result, I consider a deep, practical belief as presented in the video particularly delusional and worrying, and I consider it harmful when it is used to instill restrictive ideas in a child on absurd and illogical grounds. Magic is not a real thing, it's a completely fictional idea, and I'd be surprised to find any evidence that play or imagination involving magic can be harmful to a kid - in fact I'd think it beneficial to the development of the kid's imagination. Claiming that it comes from Satan, is sinful and should be avoided is likely to put pressure on the kid and create internal conflict for ridiculous and completely baseless, illogical reasons, not to mention that it robs the child of the chance to explore at least one entire genre of fiction. Also on a tangent of sorts; Are you own experiences a part of these things that are simply so plainly wrong? Have your parents ever said anything to you that you'd consider delusional, even if only in part? If yes, did you question it? I know I certainly have. However, I think that is just life. Our parents are not 100%, and we are not them. We are shaped by their influence but we are shaped by ourselves. We question and we evolve. Not at all; I was raised a Protestant, but as with most Danes my parents were (and are) Christians culturally more than anything. As I grew older and started thinking critically about religion, I became an atheist, and my parents were completely fine with that. In general I consider them brilliant parents who have raised me incredibly well, though I certainly don't always agree with them and am not afraid to bring it up with them when I don't. Indeed, as I have also stated, no parents are perfect, and I certainly don't believe they need to be; we question and grow and shape our own lives as well, as you say. However, if we are instilled and indoctrinated with "infallible" truths instead of rational values that we can evaluate and test for ourselves as we grow older, we are actively discouraged or even outright prevented from thinking critically and thereby growing and shaping ourselves as human beings.
Rummy Posted July 17, 2013 Posted July 17, 2013 Coming back to my first post - why can't he grow older and question it rationally later, similarly as you did with your own religious beliefs of sorts? It's manipulative the way she presents the argument, but no more so than I expect any parent does with any kid and their own beliefs. Maybe even less so than I'd expect of more stricter religious parents, even.
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