General Switch Discussion

[Happenstance]

Been a while since I looked into Switch stuff, can you use a cable to connect it directly to the TV without a dock?

[Nicktendo]

43 minutes ago, Goron_3 said:

There have been plenty of rumours about a more powerful Switch coming later this year. Today, a very reliable Apple leaker (who has connections at Foxconn, the Chinese production company) has tweeted about it, suggesting that it's now entered production: 

I'm really excited about this, because a recent Nvidia hiring post confirmed they were looking at someone with DLSS experience. For those unaware, DLSS can allow a console to output a 4K image without all the required GPU power. In fact, I've seen footage of Death Stranding run at very low resolutions (360p) and look near identical to a 1080p PS4 image. This could be a real game changer for Nintendo, as Sony and Microsoft can't use DLSS as it's not something AMD offer. A new Switch can offer a decent CPU boost, DLSS and perhaps have more memory without 'replacing' the current Switch. 

[BowserBasher]

9 hours ago, Goron_3 said:

There have been plenty of rumours about a more powerful Switch coming later this year. Today, a very reliable Apple leaker (who has connections at Foxconn, the Chinese production company) has tweeted about it, suggesting that it's now entered production: 

I'm really excited about this, because a recent Nvidia hiring post confirmed they were looking at someone with DLSS experience. For those unaware, DLSS can allow a console to output a 4K image without all the required GPU power. In fact, I've seen footage of Death Stranding run at very low resolutions (360p) and look near identical to a 1080p PS4 image. This could be a real game changer for Nintendo, as Sony and Microsoft can't use DLSS as it's not something AMD offer. A new Switch can offer a decent CPU boost, DLSS and perhaps have more memory without 'replacing' the current Switch. 

 

 

 

 

I was going to dismiss this because of the 4K output and the fact that Nintendo have really only just started making 1080p standard. But if it’s through that DLSS means then very interesting. Just hope if they do come out with it, then they make moving all our stuff on the current Switch over as easy as possible, including my AC island. 

[LazyBoy]

Sounds like bullshit. Shame though, give me Metroid Prime 4 in 4K.

[MindFreak]

4K? Pff. How about a stable 30-60 FPS in all games? You would actually notice the difference there...

[Glen-i]

45 minutes ago, MindFreak said:

4K? Pff. How about a stable 30-60 FPS in all games? You would actually notice the difference there...

Absolutely this. Gameplay over graphics any day.

[darksnowman]

2 hours ago, MindFreak said:

4K? Pff. How about a stable 30-60 FPS in all games? You would actually notice the difference there...

Yeah, these rumours never mention if they'll make Link's Awakening run smoothly!

[Nicktendo]

DLSS does not mean native 4K to everyone dismissing it. Watch the video that @Goron_3 posted. This is technology that already exists in most Nvidia chips post Switch launch. It is completely feasible and even logical that a new Switch would include this technology. In fact, it would be outrageous if they didn’t include it. 

[LazyBoy]

I’ll admit I have no idea when it comes to the tech. However in 20 years any time Nintendo has been rumoured to be giving us a performance boost it turns out to be bullshit. 

[Glen-i]

5 minutes ago, LazyBoy said:

I’ll admit I have no idea when it comes to the tech. However in 20 years any time Nintendo has been rumoured to be giving us a performance boost it turns out to be bullshit. 

Yep, also this. Everyone is just saying what I'm thinking currently.

Nintendo just aren't gonna chase the performance, because that would make their consoles more expensive. When your main competition are expensive, power-chasing consoles, why give up your cheaper alternative niche?

[Goron_3]

5 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Yep, also this. Everyone is just saying what I'm thinking currently.

Nintendo just aren't gonna chase the performance, because that would make their consoles more expensive. When your main competition are expensive, power-chasing consoles, why give up your cheaper alternative niche?

A more powerful Switch might be more expensive but it wouldn't directly replace the current Switch (or the Switch Lite). It's simply an opportunity for them to help extend the Switch family of systems.

Regarding DLSS - Nintendo could genuinely only target 540p / 720p as docked resolutions if the console had this feature built in (and still output at 1090p / 4K), meaning that they'd save a tonne of GPU overheard for graphical effects and not just waste that on resolution. Of course, this means they could also give the system a nice CPU update too.

[Dcubed]

1 hour ago, Nicktendo said:

DLSS does not mean native 4K to everyone dismissing it. Watch the video that @Goron_3 posted. This is technology that already exists in most Nvidia chips post Switch launch. It is completely feasible and even logical that a new Switch would include this technology. In fact, it would be outrageous if they didn’t include it. 

DLSS is almost guaranteed to be included as a key feature of Switch 2.  It’s basically a free 40-50% performance boost across the board with any 3D game; and it’s Nvidia’s big USP with their current generation of graphics chips.

It’s a huge advantage that will go a LONG way towards closing the power gap between Switch 2 and PS5/Series X (which have no such equivalent feature).

[LazyBoy]

I just don't see them taking the risk. They are at the same time the most creatively ambitious video company, and the most financially conservative. Their hardware advances have only ever been ambitious when they're up against the cosh - Wii came in response to the failed GC, DS to counter the emerging mobile scene, Switch to counter failed Wii U. When they're operating from a position of strength, as they are now, they tend to opt for mid-generation hardware refinements that streamline and update, making the machine more efficient (and probably cheaper) without improving the ability of the machine - DS Lite, Switch Lite, GBA SP (nostalgia bomb, anyone remember this fucking beauty of a machine?). Cost is low and it can't be made redundant through poor adoption (like the Virtual Boy, the likely lesson that taught them their conservatism).

[Goron_3]

21 minutes ago, LazyBoy said:

I just don't see them taking the risk. They are at the same time the most creatively ambitious video company, and the most financially conservative. Their hardware advances have only ever been ambitious when they're up against the cosh - Wii came in response to the failed GC, DS to counter the emerging mobile scene, Switch to counter failed Wii U. When they're operating from a position of strength, as they are now, they tend to opt for mid-generation hardware refinements that streamline and update, making the machine more efficient (and probably cheaper) without improving the ability of the machine - DS Lite, Switch Lite, GBA SP (nostalgia bomb, anyone remember this fucking beauty of a machine?). Cost is low and it can't be made redundant through poor adoption (like the Virtual Boy, the likely lesson that taught them their conservatism).

For what it's worth, they can likely make just as much, if not more profit, from a revised more powerful Switch than they do off of the current one, as they will be able to produce the chips on a much smaller fabrication process (8nm, 12nm etc). My understanding of the current chip inside the latest Switch (Mariko), is that it's still using a fairly outdated fabrication process (16nm). Yes, the chip is old, but there comes a point where it's just cheaper to switch (excuse the pun) to a more efficient process. For mobile technology, that transition period occurs much quicker than the say, the technology inside a PS5.

Either way, let's wait and see. But I'll be shocked if they don't launch a fairly decent console upgrade alongside Zelda.

[RedShell]

DLSS is fantastic. Wasn’t clued up to it before getting back into PC gaming last year, but have used it on several games since then and yeah, it’s great stuff. Nintendo would be very wise to make use of it in either a Switch Pro or their next system.  

[LazyBoy]

Ok so just watched the video above, and if I’m understanding this right any increase in power of the machine would only be to compensate for frame rate drops that result from upscaling to higher resolutions -right? So there would be any need to create a split tier of games in the switch library?

[Nicktendo]

30 minutes ago, LazyBoy said:

Ok so just watched the video above, and if I’m understanding this right any increase in power of the machine would only be to compensate for frame rate drops that result from upscaling to higher resolutions -right? So there would be any need to create a split tier of games in the switch library?

Take BOTW for example, it runs at about 30FPS at 900p on the docked Switch. It's not super stable and drops a few frames, think by the Deku Tree, for instance. What DLSS can do depends on what type of experience you want. You could run the game in 720p native (lighter load on the GPU), upscaled to 1080p. The deep learning super sampling would output an upscaled 1080p image, but the actual game would be rendering in 720p, so in TV mode, the frame-rate would be much smoother because the GPU is not working as hard to produce the image. The cost of running DLSS would be far lower than natively rendering the game in 900p over 720.

Mario Kart 8 is a buttery smooth 1080p60. With DLSS enabled, it could, in theory upscale the image to 2160p or even 4K with very little cost. I'd imagine, with it being a Wii U game, there is still some overhead that could be used to achieve this. If they slightly upgrade (or even unlock) the clock speeds on the next model, this would be instantly achievable. For handheld mode, you could have Doom Eternal, as an example, rendered in native 480p and outputting at an upscaled 720p on the Switch Screen, which may even make 60FPS possible, or allow it to maintain a consistent 30fps upscaled to 720p (so no more variable resolution to keep the frame-rate stable). 

Basically, it allows you to play around with output and frame-rates and tailor the experience to what you want. Now I'm sure Nintendo will be extremely strict with what they allow users to select and it certainly won't be as free as it is on PC. But this stuff really works and I'm kicking myself for buying an AMD GPU a couple of years ago. There are loads of Digital Foundry videos if you want to get all technical which examine different uses of DLSS and the cost or running a game like Control in native 4K compared to upscaled 4K. The amount of power you can save is really as much as 50% and the difference in image quality is almost not visible unless you zoom right in. It's also really going to come into its own when stuff like ray-tracing takes off as rendering that stuff is extremely expensive. 

This shit is magic. The best part is it would not cost Nintendo anything like a full generation shift but can get similar results. All they would need to do is use a slightly more modern chip than the one they have now and keep everything else the same. This stuff has been around for a few years now but has only started seeing real results in the last 12 months as the technology has improved. They would be absolutely insane to not make use of it in their partnership with Nvidia, and best of all, they could still make a tidy profit off a $299 Switch with this feature included. They don't need to break the bank. 

Edit: It also makes sense for Nintendo to adopt this as a matter urgency, before the XSX and PS5 get up and running. The longer they leave it, the further they'll get left behind. Though that's just my opinion based on 2010-2012 and the Wii. 

Edited January 18, 2021 by Nicktendo

[LazyBoy]

20 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Take BOTW for example, it runs at about 30FPS at 900p on the docked Switch. It's not super stable and drops a few frames, think by the Deku Tree, for instance. What DLSS can do depends on what type of experience you want. You could run the game in 720p native (lighter load on the GPU), upscaled to 1080p. The deep learning super sampling would output an upscaled 1080p image, but the actual game would be rendering in 720p, so in TV mode, the frame-rate would be much smoother because the GPU is not working as hard to produce the image. The cost of running DLSS would be far lower than natively rendering the game in 900p over 720.

Mario Kart 8 is a buttery smooth 1080p60. With DLSS enabled, it could, in theory upscale the image to 2160p or even 4K with very little cost. I'd imagine, with it being a Wii U game, there is still some overhead that could be used to achieve this. If they slightly upgrade (or even unlock) the clock speeds on the next model, this would be instantly achievable. For handheld mode, you could have Doom Eternal, as an example, rendered in native 480p and outputting at an upscaled 720p on the Switch Screen, which may even make 60FPS possible, or allow it to maintain a consistent 30fps upscaled to 720p (so no more variable resolution to keep the frame-rate stable). 

Basically, it allows you to play around with output and frame-rates and tailor the experience to what you want. Now I'm sure Nintendo will be extremely strict with what they allow users to select and it certainly won't be as free as it is on PC. But this stuff really works and I'm kicking myself for buying an AMD GPU a couple of years ago. There are loads of Digital Foundry videos if you want to get all technical which examine different uses of DLSS and the cost or running a game like Control in native 4K compared to upscaled 4K. The amount of power you can save is really as much as 50% and the difference in image quality is almost not visible unless you zoom right in. It's also really going to come into its own when stuff like ray-tracing takes off as rendering that stuff is extremely expensive. 

This shit is magic. The best part is it would not cost Nintendo anything like a full generation shift but can get similar results. All they would need to do is use a slightly more modern chip than the one they have now and keep everything else the same. This stuff has been around for a few years now but has only started seeing real results in the last 12 months as the technology has improved. They would be absolutely insane to not make use of it in their partnership with Nvidia, and best of all, they could still make a tidy profit off a $299 Switch with this feature included. They don't need to break the bank. 

Edit: It also makes sense for Nintendo to adopt this as a matter urgency, before the XSX and PS5 get up and running. The longer they leave it, the further they'll get left behind. Though that's just my opinion based on 2010-2012 and the Wii. 

Lovely write up, cheers Nick.

[Julius]

Yeah, second that, excellent write-up @Nicktendo! I enjoy learning tech stuff about games and consoles from Digital Foundry's videos, but I rarely dive into it (it's pretty intimidating), so thanks for making this much easier to understand 

Been interesting reading people's thoughts on this. Like others here, I do agree that a Switch Pro seems inevitable; some point to the DSi and New 3DS refinements, but I guess the big difference here is that, unlike in the dedicated gaming handheld market, they actually have some worthwhile competition (RIP Vita). I know I use the Switch as a secondary console (and it's a great one at that - when there's something I want to check out on it ), but it's also their only dedicated gaming platform, so I think there's a bit more pressure to get things right here. Unlike with the Wii U, they don't have a strong handheld to fall back on in the 3DS: this is very much their focus. 

I guess it depends on where you see Nintendo going (they aren't the Kings of Left Field for nothing), but I struggle to see them moving on from the concept of the Switch anytime soon. A Switch 2 down the line seems inevitable to continue this, but I don't see that coming for a good 3.5 years or so at least, so a mid-gen refresh with a Pro console they can sell for £349.99 makes a lot of sense. It also opens up the possibility of more third party support, and while their first party could probably support this console by itself, why put that pressure on yourself? Not to mention the occasional first party game can have issues in certain areas (like Nick mentioned, the area by the Great Deku Tree in BotW springs to mind), and while Nintendo's art styles rarely demand a higher resolution (though it'd be great to see some better textures used, that's for sure), the boost in performance could be great. 60 fps in the little I played of Odyssey felt fantastic, I'd love that experience in some of their other games too! 

Plus, I mean, I rarely play games on my Switch and still find myself questioning if I should start putting money aside for a potential Pro, because would I really want to play BotW2 on my current Switch if a Pro launched alongside BotW2? There's absolutely a market for it, I think Nintendo would be leaving money on the table and perhaps be showing a concerning degree of overconfidence in the current Switch's abilities, considering the pivot we'll likely see in the next year or two from third parties to more demanding games running on other platforms. There's a pretty big third party catalogue of games already released for them to start tapping into if they can get a Pro out. 

On 17/01/2021 at 12:14 PM, Goron_3 said:

 

...am I the only one excited because they might have specifically heard something which implies E3 2021 specifically is actually going to happen? And that Nintendo will be there? I feel like they might have just said "June 2021" instead otherwise, but maybe it's me reading into it. 

Yeah, those leaks were pretty damning, but as interesting of an experience Summer Game Fest - and everyone and their cousins hosting a livestream - was, I would much prefer a week or two of focused gaming news (heck, maybe even a month) compared to the mess we ended up with. If for that alone I'd welcome a Month of Gaming or something similar, with a schedule put up beforehand, because I really hated the random news drops; even as someone with no ties to the industry, I found it pretty exhausting to keep up with, and that's without mentioning the completely lacklustre events we had dotted throughout. 

Could we finally see the return of a "normal" Nintendo Direct?

Who am I kidding, it'll just be E3 2016 all over again but with BotW2 (let me dream) 

Edited January 18, 2021 by Julius

[Goron_3]

Great write up, @Nicktendo.

A modest bump in the GPU (depending on what chip they have available to them) means that they can actually get close to XBO levels of raw GPU performance, but with DLSS available we could most games running at 1080p or higher. 

Zelda would be a terrific title to launch alongside this console. The base Switch could run it at 900p docked / 720p handheld and at 30 FPS, whereas a New Switch / Switch Pro / Switch 2 or whatever you call it could deliver a 4K experience using DLSS (or indeed, just focus on outputting a 1080p image, and use the overhead to make the graphical effects much better)., and perhaps go up to 60 FPS (or just deliver consistent 30). The big winners would be games like Doom and Xenoblade, which are too ambitious for the hardware but would see huge improvements across the board. 

It's worth pointing out that Sony and Microsoft can't offer this, because AMD don't have an equivalent solution yet. It's a great way for Nintendo to put out a new system whilst not alienating those that have already purchased a Switch.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Goron_3

[MindFreak]

Don't know if this should have its own thread? But well, Kingdom of Amalur: Re-Reckoning comes to Switch on March 16th (my birthday!)

 

[drahkon]

4 minutes ago, MindFreak said:

March 16th (my birthday!)

It's also my mum's birthday that day. And one of my best friend's, as well.

Anyways

Played the original back in the PS3 days and I remember enjoying it quite a lot. It did get very repetitive, though, eventually.

[Ashley]

25 minutes ago, drahkon said:

It's also my mum's birthday that day. And one of my best friend's, as well.

Anyways

Played the original back in the PS3 days and I remember enjoying it quite a lot. It did get very repetitive, though, eventually.

Imagine if he is actually your mom. That would be a... MindFreak. 

[darksnowman]

On 18/01/2021 at 2:47 PM, Nicktendo said:

Take BOTW for example, it runs at about 30FPS at 900p on the docked Switch. It's not super stable and drops a few frames, think by the Deku Tree, for instance.

 

On 18/01/2021 at 3:55 PM, Julius said:

(like Nick mentioned, the area by the Great Deku Tree in BotW springs to mind

Is that location a spoiler? Is Ocarina of Time in BotW? I feel spoiled. 

[Glen-i]

12 minutes ago, darksnowman said:

 

Is that location a spoiler? Is Ocarina of Time in BotW? I feel spoiled. 

Not really, the Great Deku Tree is a character. Think how it shows up in Wind Waker.