Call for pub garden smoking ban

[MoogleViper]

The public smoking ban should be extended to beer gardens, al fresco eating areas of restaurants, parks, and outside school gates, a report says.

 

The Royal Society for Public Health said smoking should be seen as "abnormal" and more controls are needed to cover areas where people gather.

 

Its report said people needing a fix of nicotine should use e-cigarettes.

 

The pro-smoking campaign group Forest said the measures would not work and may lead to pubs closing.

 

The Society argued the 2007 smoking ban inside public places had been a huge success and encouraged thousands to quit.

 

Its report calls for the ban "to be extended further to include school gates, the outside areas of bars and restaurants and all public parks and squares".

 

Figures on Smoking in the UK: 10 million people smoke and 200,000 children aged 11 to 15 start smoking each year

 

Unlike the original smoking ban the focus is no longer on the dangers of second-hand smoke.

 

Shirley Cramer, the body's chief executive, said: "Children are hugely receptive to the behaviour of the adults around them. The sight therefore of individuals smoking at prominent locations risks teaching them that smoking is a normal and safe habit.

"We believe that banning smoking in these locations via an exclusion zone could further denormalise smoking, ensuring that it is seen as an abnormal activity and potentially, prevent children and young people from beginning in the future."

 

The organisation also called for:

All places selling cigarettes to be forced to also offer e-cigarettes

Greater use of e-cigarettes by smoking cessation services

A new system to license places that can sell cigarettes

And for e-cigarettes to be renamed vapourisers or nicotine control products as the term was misleading

 

Analysis

Smoking and drinking

By James Gallagher, health editor, BBC News website

This report opens a new frontline in the battle against smoking.

 

Campaigners have already scored big victories with the original smoking ban and again this year with a ban on smoking in cars with children and standardised packaging for cigarettes.

Now the target is public places.

 

Brighton is already considering banning smoking on the beach and Bristol is trialling smoking bans in city squares

 

The rights of smokers are clearly in decline and leaves the question - where will it end?

line

 

Simon Clark, director of the smokers' group Forest, said he welcomed ideas that encouraged people to use electronic cigarettes but they should not rely on "coercion and prohibition".

 

He told the BBC: "Banning smoking outside pubs and bars will discriminate against adults who quite legitimately prefer to smoke.

 

"It won't stop people smoking, it will simply deter more people from going to the pub and that could lead to even more pub closures."

 

He said renaming e-cigarettes was a "silly idea" that "ignores the fact that e-cigs are popular because they mimic the act of smoking".

 

Source

 

So what are people's thoughts on this?

 

Personally I'm all for it. I hate smoking. I would be happy to see it banned in public, of altogether. The article mentions "the rights of smokers". How is smoking considered a right? It's a (bad) life choice that causes you to harm others. As an asthma sufferer sitting in a pub garden is often a risk. If anyone is smoking nearby my airways start to contract and breathing becomes difficult. Where are my rights to not risk my health? And that's not including the general health implications of.second hand smoke, not to mention the vile smell, that's not related to asthma that everyone has to suffer. People always compare the dangers and health implications of alcohol, but consuming alcohol doesn't directly harm anyone else's health.

Edited August 13, 2015 by MoogleViper

[Beast]

People are not going to like my opinion on this but here it goes: I absolutely detest smoking. Don't get me wrong, I don't judge smokers because they could be some of the best people you'll ever meet in life but the one and only thing I will judge you on is the terrible decision to start smoking. If you started smoking way back when such as in the 40s where there was little health warnings and things like that, fair enough. But now, we live in a world where health warnings are on every carton, every box and there's even vile pictures and documentaries and adverts...if you started to smoke from the 90s and put your health at risk like that then there's no defending you.

 

I've lost so many people to smoking and I'm going to lose another close family member because of it. I would love to see it banned for good and taken away from all shops to buy. Sure, people will find another way to buy them but there'd be a lot less people smoking them. I'm in the same boat as @MoogleViper as well. I'm asthmatic and I choke on smoke and it affects my breathing for hours.

 

I know that an entire ban would probably never happen (which is a shame because it could potentially save so many lives) but I would just love a ban on people smoking right on top of entrances and exits. It is just the worst when you have to walk through a cloud of smoke and it's inconsiderate as well. No rights should ever come out of smoking. Ever. It does NOTHING but harm. There are zero good properties to come from smoking.

[Sheikah]

I am up for them banning it in as many places as possible. It's just disgusting.

 

It really annoys me when people smoke even walking down the street - everyone behind them then has to smell it or walk a bit faster to get in front of them. It's like most smokers don't seem to realise what an absolute nuisance they are.

[Jimbob]

Reckon this country should go New York style with smoking, aka a total ban in most public places. Yep, i do.

 

I don't hate people whom smoke, it is their choice after all (be it a bad choice, but none the less). However, in the summer when i fancy a pint, i do want to sit in the beer garden. I can't sit in the beer garden, as it looks like an audition for "Stars in their Eyes". It's the same with outside shops, cafe's etc. I hate the smell of cigarettes, and i've lost family members to cancer caused by smoking.

[Esequiel]

I started smoking as a stupid 15 year old. Wish I had never started, I've cut cigarettes out completely but use one of the Vape things which is apparently much healthier. I'd be happy to see a ban on every public place and in cars. I'd be happier if they made the damn things illegal.

[Cube]

The biggest problem with me is bus stops. If someone is smoking at a bus stop, I have to move around 5 metres away.

[Shorty]

People are not going to like my opinion on this but here it goes: I absolutely detest smoking.

 

Huh, I would've sworn you were about to defend smoking with that opener If you think most people, especially around these parts, are in favour of smoking anywhere, you ain't noticed the times a-changing.

 

That said I wouldn't necessarily want enforcement of a blanket beer garden ban. Maybe on the basis of if food is being served?

[Daft]

Ban smoking, just legalise and regulate marijuana.

[Happenstance]

Cant decide what I hate more at the moment. Smoking or vaping.

[Agent Gibbs]

Well I'm going to break the echo chamber it seems!

I'm a non smoker, although for about 2 years when i was 19-21 i smoked social because i thought it was cool, it wasn't and was expensive.

I've been "stopped" over 10 years now.

My uncle died of lung cancer from smoking, one of my other uncles a doctor, died of cancer- he never smoked to my knowledge but loved pubs.

I've a very large family and a small number (3 i think other than the above) smoke or have smoked.

I don't particularly like the smell, although when drunk i don't mind it as it reminds me of pubs - but drunk brain doesn't get to decide

I personally cannot stand weed, i've been around it and seen its effects

 

So that's the background right there

 

I don't agree with this at all, and i don't agree with the smoking ban - i feel it has been implemented badly.

Firstly the doorway smoking is a symptom of the outright smoking ban in public places/pubs etc, a problem that would have been solved if the smoking ban was not implemented as a total ban, allowing premises to have designated smoking rooms or entire pubs with smoking on license - this would have less adversely affected the pub industry, but also meant that there could be entirely smoke free pubs quite easily with smokers self segregating.

 

A total ban on smoking outdoors is utterly ridiculous simply from a civil liberties/right stand point, the government should simply not be positively discriminating against the lifestyle choices of any group of people, neither should they actively involve themselves in telling people how to live.

 

Arguments can be made that its a drain on the NHS, which certainly can be made, smokers have health problems (but so do other groups which i'll come back to) HOWEVER smokers contribute a massive proportion of tax which is more than capable of funding their care, and certainly having enough of a surplus to cover any passive smoking harm to a degree

 

A typical pack of 20 cig 77% of the RRP is Tax, with the average pack of 20 costing (FUCK ME THEY'VE GONE UP FROM THE £3.50 i paid!) a whopping £8 - their vice, their hobby pays a ridiculous proportion of tax compared to other vices such as Alcohol.

Some rough sums, if you smoke 20 a day of that £8 £6.16 is tax, so per week they pay £43.12 and per year £2242 of tax EXTRA to a non smoker. no when you consider smokers health problems only start in later life (typically) after years of smoking they could have paid that figure for decades, funding the NHS and government with nothing extra providing to them as a burden to the state/NHS

 

It should also be considered that any further bans will push more smokers to stop or move to relatively untaxed e-cigs (which current research from independent sources claim have negligible health implications, having franctions of a thousandth of the toxins of a single cigarette and only emitting water vapour) - this is something the average person should worry about! currently that tax they are paying would disappear and the government would need to recoup the costs! not to mention the tabacco industry is forced to pay greater tax itself.

The government doesn't loose revenue for long, look at road tax, everyone moved to diesels and hybrids on lower tax, and now the gov says its unsustainable and has rose tax to a flat £130 and massively increased it on everything!

 

But more than offsetting any financial obligation is the civil rights loss of such a ban, we shouldn't freely allow our governemnt to tell us what to think and do and how to live our lives! they use medical experts to tell us smoking is bad and should be banned, if they achieve that aim, the government and medical profession would target the next biggest health issue they see! So what if alcohol then becomes the thing to ban, or more likely the obesity crisis, would we freely allow the government to regulate our food intake and exercise regimes?

 

Erosion of civil liberties is a terrifyingly slippery slope! 70 years ago we rose up against a nation that wanted to control and oppress us, now our supposedly liberal free societies which aren't supposed to be oppressive are suddenly being allowed to become oppressive and regime like under the guise of doing what is best for us! where does the buck stop?

 

How would you even enforce it? you'd need an army of civil enforcement officers patrolling the streets at all times, or cameras everywhere - the rights abuses there alone is questionable enough

 

Whilst you may see a ban on smoking something you'd personally like due to your own feelings, it should not be something to advocate as once we've concede that point tomorrow they could come to restrict something you do care about

 

I cannot in good conscience advocate this move, its a step too far! it would be far better to allow a license for smoking pubs and there fore allow people to police themselves into an area where they can be safe, and non smokers can avoid - that alone would massively reduce the number in doorways

Edited August 13, 2015 by Agent Gibbs
dropped my cig on my lap and misspelled some words ;)

[Rummy]

I was on the fence about the original smoking ban as I wasn't/am not really a smoker- but looking back on it now I think it's had some good outcomes. Getting to the point of banning smoking in outdoor areas of places like pubs etc does seem a bit too far for me though.

[Charlie]

That said I wouldn't necessarily want enforcement of a blanket beer garden ban. Maybe on the basis of if food is being served?

 

My issue is exactly what Jimbob said - you can't sit in a beer garden without people also being there and smoking.

 

I would love pubs to create smoke-free beer gardens but I doubt it would ever happen without a ban because a lot of people do use them to smoke.

 

The issue that will be created is those pubs with beer gardens will now have people spilling onto the street to smoke as opposed to using the beer gardens.

[Sheikah]

A total ban on smoking outdoors is utterly ridiculous simply from a civil liberties/right stand point, the government should simply not be positively discriminating against the lifestyle choices of any group of people, neither should they actively involve themselves in telling people how to live.

 

The problem with this line of reasoning is that you can just as easily apply it to the other side. Where is the protection of people's lifestyle choice to not have to breathe in and smell smoke when sitting in the beer garden? Or parks, outside, etc. Banning smoking inside might be a step too far though.

 

Generally, I am happy for people to do whatever they want so long as it doesn't have a direct and negative impact on others.

 

It should also be considered that any further bans will push more smokers to stop or move to relatively untaxed e-cigs (which current research from independent sources claim have negligible health implications, having franctions of a thousandth of the toxins of a single cigarette and only emitting water vapour) - this is something the average person should worry about! currently that tax they are paying would disappear and the government would need to recoup the costs! not to mention the tabacco industry is forced to pay greater tax itself.

The government doesn't loose revenue for long, look at road tax, everyone moved to diesels and hybrids on lower tax, and now the gov says its unsustainable and has rose tax to a flat £130 and massively increased it on everything!

 

I can't agree with the sentiment here. I would hope the average person would be worrying more about the effect on people's health rather than the loss of tax money if it were to go.

 

Generally speaking, there is always money to be made from what can be viewed as 'bad' things; we still make a stand because some things are more important than money.

[Raining_again]

vaping is as bad, untested and unknown side effects. To be honest I'd rather people smoked cigarettes in my face than those vile e-cigs.

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/04/e-cigarettes-toxic-chemicals-research-finds-lung-damage

[Sheikah]

vaping is as bad, untested and unknown side effects. To be honest I'd rather people smoked cigarettes in my face than those vile e-cigs.

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/04/e-cigarettes-toxic-chemicals-research-finds-lung-damage

I don't think there's any doubt they are safer than normal cigarettes (the scientific study you linked even states they generate 100 times less free radicals than cigarettes) but I agree that more research into them needs to happen.

[Raining_again]

I have my doubts, they're only a recent invention on the grand scheme of things - same with medications, you don't gather information until they're truly "tested" on humans. If we get 40/50 years in the future and we're not seeing a huge jump in e-cig related illness then i will shut the hell up, sure! :-)

 

In the mean time people can feck off and not use e-cigs near me, they should be treated exactly the same as cigs and are being done so in many corporate and medical settings :-)

[Happenstance]

The worst part of e-cigs is the fact that they've just become yet another vanity item for morons.

[Grazza]

Unlike the original smoking ban the focus is no longer on the dangers of second-hand smoke.

 

Well it should be. Whether outdoor smoking is banned should begin and end with whether it's a public health risk.

 

I've never touched a cigarette in my life - it's extremely unwise to smoke, in my opinion - and I don't respect anyone's right to damage my body. But... this should be entirely a health issue.

 

There's a worrying trend of groups lecturing others and telling them what to do - I'm convinced it's a new wave of Puritanism - backed with, if they can get away with it, legislation.

 

This, for example, seems like social engineering, however noble the aim:

 

Shirley Cramer, the body's chief executive, said: "Children are hugely receptive to the behaviour of the adults around them. The sight therefore of individuals smoking at prominent locations risks teaching them that smoking is a normal and safe habit.

"We believe that banning smoking in these locations via an exclusion zone could further denormalise smoking, ensuring that it is seen as an abnormal activity and potentially, prevent children and young people from beginning in the future."

 

Smoking is awful, I agree, but I'm unconvinced open-air smoking is a huge risk to my health. We live in a world where, whether we like it or not, we are exposed to immense amounts of radio waves from mobile phones and other types of wireless communication. It's safe, they tell us, of course they do - just like all the things in the past that were "safe". Just walking down the street, you will breathe in a disgusting amount of fumes from buses and cars with dodgy exhausts. Our food is full of chemicals and hormones, and thanks to the contraceptive pill, our water supply is packed with enough oestrogen to make fish change sex. You honestly think that has no effect on humans? I'd much rather they banned the contraceptive pill than outdoor smoking, but that's not a politically-correct idea, is it?

 

I won't shed a tear if outdoor smoking is banned, but it should be about health, not the politics.

[MoogleViper]

Smoking is awful, I agree, but I'm unconvinced open-air smoking is a huge risk to my health. We live in a world where, whether we like it or not, we are exposed to immense amounts of radio waves from mobile phones and other types of wireless communication. It's safe, they tell us, of course they do - just like all the things in the past that were "safe". Just walking down the street, you will breathe in a disgusting amount of fumes from buses and cars with dodgy exhausts. Our food is full of chemicals and hormones, and thanks to the contraceptive pill, our water supply is packed with enough oestrogen to make fish change sex. You honestly think that has no effect on humans? I'd much rather they banned the contraceptive pill than outdoor smoking, but that's not a politically-correct idea, is it?

 

I won't shed a tear if outdoor smoking is banned, but it should be about health, not the politics.

 

Radio waves: yes they're safe. They have the lowest energy of all electromagnetic waves. We've used them extensively for almost a century now, and there have been no documented health issues as a result. Just because scientists and the accepted knowledge has been wrong in the past, that doesn't mean you can disregard all current science.

 

Buses and cars: yes this is an issue, and one that the government is trying to reduce with financial benefits for having cars that produce less CO2, and pioneering electric motoring technology. And dodgy exhausts are illegal.

 

Most of the furore around "chemicals" in our food is overblown. Yes there is an issue with out food, but the government is trying to combat it with tax on unhealthy food, and making it a legal requirement to show a list of all ingredients and have the traffic light scores on the front of the pack.

 

The birth control causing oestrogen to pollute our water supplies, and whatever health issues that has cause, is a complete myth perpetuated by sensationalist tabloid headlines.

 

A literature review published in Environmental Science and Technology by researchers at the UCSF PRHE debunks the myth that birth control pills (and other estrogen-based hormonal contraceptives) are a major contributor to the presence of estrogenic compounds in waterways. The reviewers conclude that birth control pills contribute a negligible amount of synthetic estrogen to waterways, and EE2 is minimal or nonexistent in drinking water.8 The notion of unsuspecting Americans drinking water filled with birth control hormones may get headlines—but it does not accurately describe the state of the science.

[Emerald Emblem]

I knew I'd get to post these someday~ ;p

 

I hate smoking as well. I have to clean a smoking shelter most mornings at work and I always wait till it's not being used to do it to avoid the second hand smoke. I know not all smokers are bad people and they've made their own choice in picking it up, but I hope that it may be something that one day we will stop doing.

[Sheikah]

Smoking is awful, I agree, but I'm unconvinced open-air smoking is a huge risk to my health. We live in a world where, whether we like it or not, we are exposed to immense amounts of radio waves from mobile phones and other types of wireless communication. It's safe, they tell us, of course they do - just like all the things in the past that were "safe". Just walking down the street, you will breathe in a disgusting amount of fumes from buses and cars with dodgy exhausts. Our food is full of chemicals and hormones, and thanks to the contraceptive pill, our water supply is packed with enough oestrogen to make fish change sex. You honestly think that has no effect on humans? I'd much rather they banned the contraceptive pill than outdoor smoking, but that's not a politically-correct idea, is it?

 

I won't shed a tear if outdoor smoking is banned, but it should be about health, not the politics.

 

With the sort of scaremongering stories like that, have you ever considered a career with the Daily Mail?

 

Regarding your being unconvinced of outdoor smoke; the fact is, cigarette smoke is carcinogenic. Cancer occurs following accumulation of specific mutations. Those mutations are somewhat random, in that you may get unlucky and accumulate the particular mutations quickly, or you may not. The truth is, it's a lottery, and the one thing we know for certain is that you play that lottery by being in the vicinity of smoke, regardless of whether you're indoors or outdoors. The only difference is that indoor, you get more tickets to play, because you're in that smoke for much longer periods and it's at a higher concentration. Regarding the defence of outdoor, though - I see many beer gardens as barely a step up from indoor, what with there frequently being walls or partitions that help cigarette smoke stay in by blocking out wind. I'm sure others will agree that when sitting in beer gardens, cigarette smoke can really linger around you.

 

I also don't see that this should be entirely a health campaign. For most non-smokers, smoke is very unpleasant. We already regulate many things that are considered unpleasant or indecent. For instance, if neighbours play music very loudly then that is both insensitive to neighbours and unpleasant to the ears. To make the comparison, smoking is essentially unpleasant to the nose, and also insensitive. Yet in the music scenario, people seemingly have no issue whatsoever with us stamping down on it (even being able to call the police), despite the music not actually being really that harmful to you.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Sheikah

[Iun]

Seeing as I have been out of the UK for almost a decade (SAD SMILEY FACE) I have no idea how this has worked, whether or not it has led to people quitting or that a new stigma has become attached to the habit...

 

All I can say is that here in China, there are 350 million smokers and they will light up anywhere and everywhere - buses, underground, trains, train stations, shopping centres... so I support a total blanket ban. I also support anyone who smokes on public transport or in small enclosed spaces being repeatedly tasered until they crap in their pants.

[Charlie]

 

In the mean time people can feck off and not use e-cigs near me, they should be treated exactly the same as cigs and are being done so in many corporate and medical settings :-)

 

I've seen so many people on flights trying to surreptitiously use an e-cig. Mainly on RyanAir, it has to be said!

[Fierce_LiNk]

I don't really come into contact with that many smokers anymore, especially since finishing uni and moving away from Brighton with its many pubs and bars.

 

Would it piss me off if I was eating a meal and somebody's cigarette smoke was blowing in my direction? Yes, it would. My brother used to smoke inside our house and the rooms/walls/carpets/everything used to smell absolutely terrible. Going on a night out in Brighton, it would get irritating that your clothes would stink of smoke. I still don't really understand why people really do it in the first place, nevermind the whole addiction thing. Why bother starting?

 

Forgetting all of the economical side of things, would I prefer to do outside and not come into contact with smokers in a park or at a restaurant or bar? Yup.