Goron_3 Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 We've spent the past 25 years playing handled games with the controllers attached to they system, yet all of a sudden tabletop mode renders this tried and tested, comfortable method redundant? I'm not buying it. Tabletop mode will likely be great for short bursts of 2-player gaming, but for long solo sessions I can't see it being even remotely popular outside games which use heavy motion control, even then it's not exactly ideal. I never said it made it redundant. It just poses a question for the developer - is it worth making it can't be played in a specific way, especially when there are already concessions that need to be made. I'm not asking for an argument here, I want to ask how it is possible. Maybe everytime a player disconnects the joycon's at Dirt is running, a message comes up on screen saying "This game doesn't work in tabletop mode"? Always, there is no way of knowing how popular tabletop mode is versus handheld mode. If it ends up being the most popular way to play then... Handheld mode would be better than tabletop mode anyway; I mean, you CAN play it in tabletop, but if it's worse then why wouldn't you play it in handheld mode? Doesn't make sense to dismiss it based on what will be the least played way of playing the switch full stop, but ultimately people can choose, isn't that a good thing? Choice? You don't like tabletop mode, don't play it?! I'm sure this conversation is missing specifics because it's not making loads of sense. Of course you can play it in handheld mode! That's not the issue as the joycon's are connecting to the screen. It's as stupid as saying when in handheld or tablet mode out and about you may not have WiFi and so you can't release any games that require online. Developers can't release any games that need to be always online. STEEP is an example of this; the game will be modified accordingly.
dazzybee Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I never said it made it redundant. It just poses a question for the developer - is it worth making it can't be played in a specific way, especially when there are already concessions that need to be made. I'm not asking for an argument here, I want to ask how it is possible. Maybe everytime a player disconnects the joycon's at Dirt is running, a message comes up on screen saying "This game doesn't work in tabletop mode"? Always, there is no way of knowing how popular tabletop mode is versus handheld mode. If it ends up being the most popular way to play then... Of course you can play it in handheld mode! That's not the issue as the joycon's are connecting to the screen. Developers can't release any games that need to be always online. STEEP is an example of this; the game will be modified accordingly. Why not just let people decide? You CAN play it in all modes, no problem, if someone doesn't like it in tabletop mode, then don't play it; let people decide. I didn't;t play Smash Bros on the wii with just the wii remote because that really was gimped, but doesn't mean the whole game should be canned. I really think tabeltop mode will barely be used, the only normal usage would be for multiplayer games anyway.
Nicktendo Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I never said it made it redundant. It just poses a question for the developer - is it worth making it can't be played in a specific way, especially when there are already concessions that need to be made. I'm not asking for an argument here, I want to ask how it is possible. Maybe everytime a player disconnects the joycon's at Dirt is running, a message comes up on screen saying "This game doesn't work in tabletop mode? I think it's absolutely worth it. Remember those notifications at the beginning of Wii games "please attach the nunchuck" etc. with the message repeated should it happen to be detatched? People didn't find them too intrusive or annoying, it was simply the standard required to play the game. I don't see how implementing the same here would be a problem. They could even go so far as to include a message like this to avoid any confusion at all: Oh, it seems you have detached the Joy-Cons from your Nintendo Switch system. Please re-attach them to continue playing Dirt 7. Alternatively please press SR on Joy-con 1 to continue playing the game in a nerfed format using one joy-con. This control method is not recommended for players wanting full control over their vehicle. Please press SL on joy-con 1 to continue playing the game in "detached mode". While this mode offers full control over your vehicle, we do not recommend you play the game in this way. This way will likely lead to fatigue and frustration as the required buttons are harder to reach in a timely manner. More information can be found in the Dirt 7 for Nintendo Switch instruction manual. If you would like to switch (haha) off this notification in the future, please press the - button.
Pestneb Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I know its a specific move, but here's a youtube video with a decent view of the controller in action: (2:19) I still don't get why this renders using two joycons in desktop mode redundant... is the point that some people aren't able to input controls that slowly (from what you guys were saying I was imagining something somewhat more complex and frantic somehow) if both hands are holding the joycons independently of each other? it's not like the right hand is needing to access the controls on the left side or vice-versa. It's not like there are inputs that are no longer accessible when the joy cons are separated. Are they actually THAT hard to grip and use when they aren't attached to the grip/main console?
Goron_3 Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I think it's absolutely worth it. Remember those notifications at the beginning of Wii games "please attach the nunchuck" etc. with the message repeated should it happen to be detatched? People didn't find them too intrusive or annoying, it was simply the standard required to play the game. I don't see how implementing the same here would be a problem. They could even go so far as to include a message like this to avoid any confusion at all: I did think that too, but at least with the Wii you knew that the nunchuk was in arms reach. Again, how can the developer guarantee that the grip or PC is there? Do they put on the box that it's only compatible in handheld/home mode? These seem like small questions but they are important to a developer who has to allocate millions of pounds to a project in a difficult environment. Ultimately, the minimum standard of controller input for the Switch is one joy con, but I can't see Dirt working with that and I'm not sure if it's the best use of resources. A better idea would be to make a game like Excitetruck using the joy con instead. I still don't get why this renders using two joycons in desktop mode redundant... is the point that some people aren't able to input controls that slowly (from what you guys were saying I was imagining something somewhat more complex and frantic somehow) if both hands are holding the joycons independently of each other? it's not like the right hand is needing to access the controls on the left side or vice-versa. It's not like there are inputs that are no longer accessible when the joy cons are separated. Are they actually THAT hard to grip and use when they aren't attached to the grip/main console? Ashley's post sums it up nicely but as I mentioned to Ronnie on the top of the page, imagine driving a car where the steering wheel and gearstick were not attached to the car. You need a central sturdy weight. We are kind of going around in circles here. I'm done. Enjoy the Switch.
Ronnie Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Moving on, this should be the intro animation to the Switch
Rummy Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I still don't get why this renders using two joycons in desktop mode redundant... is the point that some people aren't able to input controls that slowly (from what you guys were saying I was imagining something somewhat more complex and frantic somehow) if both hands are holding the joycons independently of each other? it's not like the right hand is needing to access the controls on the left side or vice-versa. It's not like there are inputs that are no longer accessible when the joy cons are separated. Are they actually THAT hard to grip and use when they aren't attached to the grip/main console? I think it's an idea about the dissonance between the two. I do recall feeling a bit like it in Smash(as Ashley mentioned) when I originally tried using Wiimote+nunchuk. I could still play, but it's definitely my weakest input method for the game looking back. Don't forget as well, if you're holding one solid thing like a pad - you have more luxury to let off pressure with one hand as the other will still support it. Having two pads across two hands doesn't give you this luxury, especially if you end up needing to do a lot with each. I can imagine it being both either difficult and/or stressful for the hands. Were there any Wii games that ever used a Wiimote per hand? Like...two wiimotes, one in each hand?
Ashley Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I still don't get why this renders using two joycons in desktop mode redundant... is the point that some people aren't able to input controls that slowly (from what you guys were saying I was imagining something somewhat more complex and frantic somehow) if both hands are holding the joycons independently of each other? it's not like the right hand is needing to access the controls on the left side or vice-versa. It's not like there are inputs that are no longer accessible when the joy cons are separated. Are they actually THAT hard to grip and use when they aren't attached to the grip/main console? Not necessarily redundant, but more difficult/inaccurate which could in effect make it redundant (why make a game with a play mode that you know is going to be a worse experience). It comes down to 1) if there is a requirement for games to support all 3 modes (seems unlikely but unconfirmed AFAIK) and 2) if the devs consider it worth pursuing. I'm imagining in this case it's the 2nd.
Pestneb Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 ok... I'd be playing with both joycons in their respective hands, with my hands rested on my lap... so no issue on stability, @Rummy the Wii U pro pad is about 200g... afaik the joy cons weight 101g together, so only 50g a piece.. I don't see them causing masses of issues on the weight issue. Also the Wiimotes had no analogue, lacked 2 shoulder buttons and the button placement was very widely spaced out. holding a wiimote in one hand, I can't imagine reaching the dpad, A button and 1/2 buttons quickly and easily. the nunchucks obviously lacked face buttons. So I think there are key differences between the two that make joycons a better controller for traditional games. The only way I can see this being an issue is if Nintendo were to constrain design... say "in handheld mode you MUST incorporate touchscreen... in table top you MUST use motion controls... in home console mode you MUST use traditional controls." The statement of letting devs do what they want (to heavily paraphrase.. it was something about EA not adding random motion controls etc.) suggests to me they wouldn't do that though.
dazzybee Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 This is an even bigger non-issue than the Switch trailer not saying Mario Kart has online Come on Nintendo, give us something to talk about!!!! Snipperclips is now strongly rumoured to be a launch game! Great news! Though does it have a single player campaign? And please don't just be hot swapping between the two characters! Though that could work I guess.
Guy Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I would be all over Snipperclips at launch. Can't wait to get my hands on that game.
Cube Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 It's not like developers will need to do any work for allowing to use the JoyCons separate compared to in a grip/console. Even if it is slightly inaccurate, people may find it comfortable (I quite enjoyed using the Wii Remote/Nunchuck with my arms crossed). I play all FPS games on PC with a controller simply because it's more comfortable.
Ronnie Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 SnipperClips at launch would be great. Then just a last minute reveal of Pilotwings Switch and we're set. Also, Oceanhorn coming to Switch. [TWEET]825652543359418368[/TWEET]
dazzybee Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 SnipperClips at launch would be great. Then just a last minute reveal of Pilotwings Switch and we're set. Also, Oceanhorn coming to Switch. [TWEET]825652543359418368[/TWEET] Is this the one that's on other formats or a sequel? I think I own it on Apple TV.
Retro_Link Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Thought Snipperclips was a launch game, so yeah much needed. Couldn't believe what a Wind Waker rip-off Oceanhorn looked - and not in a good way. Can't see anyone here buying it honestly.
Londragon Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) Ultimately, the minimum standard of controller input for the Switch is one joy con, but I can't see Dirt working with that and I'm not sure if it's the best use of resources. But, Breath of the Wild can't be played with one JoyCon, can it? I don't think Nintendo will put a mandatory, all games ported to the Switch must be compatible with the minimum one JoyCon set-up. That would make a hell of a lot 3rd party games ineligible for support, and lots of Nintendo games, too. I can't imagine playing Skyrim, or BOTW, with one JoyCon, and I don't think the option to play it that way will be available. It sounds to me like the CodeMasters development guy is talking out of his arse. "Lack of input buttons??" Don't put a one JoyCon set-up in the game, problem solved. Edited January 30, 2017 by londragon
Serebii Posted January 30, 2017 Author Posted January 30, 2017 But, Breath of the Wild can't be played with one JoyCon, can it? I don't think Nintendo will put a mandatory, all games ported to the Switch must be compatible with the minimum one JoyCon set-up. That would make a hell of a lot 3rd party games ineligible for support, and lots of Nintendo games, too. I can't imagine playing Skyrim, or BOTW, with one JoyCon, and I don't think the option to play it that way will be available. It sounds to me like the CodeMasters development guy is talking out of his arse. "Lack of input buttons??" Don't put a one JoyCon set-up in the game, problem solved. Nope, it cannot. That developer is just either misinformed or making excuses.
ArtMediocre Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) Yep, just as @londragon says, Codemasters-guy is just full of bullcrap. Playing Switch-games with 1 joy con is not mandatory. That is just plain stupid, and a cheap way of saying "we dont want to make this game for Switch". Now, the thing is. You have your left and right joy con. That equals the same button layout as a Nintendo Switch Pro Controller. And the same as PS4 and Xbone controller (minus the analogue triggers). Now, if you decide to hold the joy cons separated in your hands, thats just a different variation of play style. The button layout is the same. End of story. If that is the developers excuse, he basically can just say that they should stop developing for the PS4 and Xbone as well. They probably just want to skip nintendo as it hasn't been a good investment in the past, and they are too lazy to actually say "We don't want to support Nintendo Switch" because hey, it might turn around to be a good selling console. And if that happens, I'll bet you that the separated joy cons won't be an issue anymore. Edited January 30, 2017 by ArtMediocre My English suck :P.
bob Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 They're probably not allowed to say 'We're not developing for the Switch because we think it'll bomb', so they have to make these excuses instead.
nekunando Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 You have your left and right joy con. That equals the same button layout as a Nintendo Switch Pro Controller. And the same as PS4 and Xbone controller (minus the analogue triggers) The lack of analogue triggers may not even be much of an issue either as I remember playing several racing games in the past where acceleration and braking was on the right analogue stick! It may not be ideal but the fact is that you can still have that more subtle level of control over these aspects without the need for triggers
liger05 Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 The lack of analogue triggers may not even be much of an issue either as I remember playing several racing games in the past where acceleration and braking was on the right analogue stick! It may not be ideal but the fact is that you can still have that more subtle level of control over these aspects without the need for triggers Using the right stick for that sounds awful.
nekunando Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 Using the right stick for that sounds awful. I'm not fond of it personally but at least it's an option
khilafah Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 Any ideas why Nintendo do not like analogue triggers??
Dcubed Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 Any ideas why Nintendo do not like analogue triggers?? Presumably they add extra weight and Nintendo are trying to keep the controller weight down as much as possible?
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