Fierce_LiNk Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 My jimmies are so unbelievably rustled right now. It's a Channel 4 documentary about a street in Birmingham where the vast majority of the people are living on benefits. They just showed a guy explaining how he makes a "living" off shoplifting. He's been to prison three times and is giving tips on how to shop lift. The current situation in that particular street is that benefits are being stopped for a lot of the people living there...obviously something they are unhappy about. Why am I watching this?
MoogleViper Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 It's channel 4, it's tripe, it's designed to make you angry. Don't watch it.
Goafer Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Why am I watching this? Because the Daily Mail just isn't "visual" enough?
MoogleViper Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Because the Daily Mail just isn't "visual" enough? Typical Labour comment! I bet the EU forced you to post that in order to reduce emissions which actually makes things worse and is all a myth BECAUSE OF THE IMMIGRANTS!!!
Fierce_LiNk Posted January 6, 2014 Author Posted January 6, 2014 Because the Daily Mail just isn't "visual" enough? Haha, it's like watching a typical Mail article but in video format. It's fucking terrible. But, I can't look away. I've tried. Fuck.
jayseven Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 On the "plus" side Osbourne has essentially stated that the 25bn he wants to save is going to come in the form of cuts to the benefits & welfare system (as opposed to cutting education, NHS, or raising taxes for the wealthy). While there are most certainly scammers and conners on the dole, there are people who are genuinely in need of the safety net of a welfare system that get tarred with the same brush all to easily. I guess essentially my political views are to worry about the minority affected by generalisations. I get why people say "people on the dole are scum" but I'd much rather they don't leave out the "except for the people who genuinely need the help and are hard done by and eager to get out of the trap." It's definitely a point that should be made because it's not taken for granted and just perpetuates the wrong perceptions.
Ashley Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Apparently the participants were lied to: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/benefits-street-channel-4-documentary-2994242
Zechs Merquise Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 On the "plus" side Osbourne has essentially stated that the 25bn he wants to save is going to come in the form of cuts to the benefits & welfare system (as opposed to cutting education, NHS, or raising taxes for the wealthy). While there are most certainly scammers and conners on the dole, there are people who are genuinely in need of the safety net of a welfare system that get tarred with the same brush all to easily. I guess essentially my political views are to worry about the minority affected by generalisations. I get why people say "people on the dole are scum" but I'd much rather they don't leave out the "except for the people who genuinely need the help and are hard done by and eager to get out of the trap." It's definitely a point that should be made because it's not taken for granted and just perpetuates the wrong perceptions. It's obvious that there are people out there in genuine need who legitimately rely on benefits. But the welfare system has clearly created a group of people who see it as a way of life and not a safety net. The vast majority of people on that street (with the notable exception of the '50p man') are utter scum; a product of a system where you can sit doing nothing (or worse than nothing) and still feel entitled to a free meal.
Ashley Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 I will admit I didn't watch it, but you need to be careful about labeling people "utter scum" based on 43 minutes of mediated material captured over a 12 month period. I know there are people that milk the system, I'm not trying to suggest otherwise (my aunt and her husband do just that), but Channel 4 has a history of making exploitative sensationalist 'documentaries'.
Rummy Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) I didn't watch this, or really know of it(few references on facebook, I didn't care) but this article(yeah dailymail) recently popped up on my facebook as it's a bit local to myself - wondering people's thoughts on someone like this? 'Unemployed gipsy mother demands new council house - because her beliefs 'do not allow her to live in a home where someone has died' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2531067/Gypsy-mother-demands-new-council-house-beliefs-not-allow-live-home-died.html Edited January 7, 2014 by Rummy
Hero-of-Time Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Unemployed gipsy mother demands new council house - because her beliefs 'do not allow her to live in a home where someone has died' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2531067/Gypsy-mother-demands-new-council-house-beliefs-not-allow-live-home-died.html Buy her a brand new tent and give her that.
Goafer Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 wondering people's thoughts on someone like this? My thoughts are that it's in the Daily Mail, so it's either vastly exaggerated or completely made up.
Corsair Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Yep more benefits porn for people to get riled about. I work with a lot of people on benefits but I guess filming a parent go to work and then go home again isn't great TV. As regards that ludicrous Daily Mail gypsy story, the key bit is the last sentence - A Dartford Borough Council spokesman said: ‘We have no plans to rehome her. We have no further comment.’ I wonder how many people get that far before gnashing their own teeth off because her living room has a TV in it or because her kitchen has a kettle in it.
jayseven Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 It's obvious that there are people out there in genuine need who legitimately rely on benefits. But the welfare system has clearly created a group of people who see it as a way of life and not a safety net. The vast majority of people on that street (with the notable exception of the '50p man') are utter scum; a product of a system where you can sit doing nothing (or worse than nothing) and still feel entitled to a free meal. For sure, I totally agree with you - the people that live on the benefits system because, to them, earning more than £200 a week is effort... are just ridiculous. It's always simplystunned me that people are willing to live off the basic amount rather than to graft - to take orders and do what you're told in order to be a bit better off. There used to be 'traps' in teh system, where, for example, a single mum of two would be better off on benefits than she would working near-full-time hours. Factoring in the housing benefits, tax credits, job seekers, free dentistry, rebated travel costs to hospitals etc... the jump to working full-time and having to pay for childcare as well was, for many inskilled young mums, just an impossible task. The system isn't as bad as this anymore, but the stereotypical ideal of families on the estate exchanging tips on how to milk the dole whilst working cash-in-hand is never a great thing. I will question whether this is the majority of people on the dole behaving like this - merely because of the absence of facts or statistics relating the the matter. I know many people who have burned through their savings or hit really hard times because they were too proud to sign on for too long. Welfare should exist to support people in need, and that should be trumpeted. The people who abuse the system should not scare people away, and should not force people into depression or harder times. To finish this overlong post (something I find myself saying a lot!); the amount of bad caused by those abusing the system is outweighed by the amount of good caused by the system helping those who actually need the help, and I think that this should be reflected in public perception - which it currently is not. I think more good can come of better promotion of this beneficial elements than just repeatedly looking at the 'scum' that we know exists. There should be a drive towards making people feel like the welfare system exists to help. If 50% of people signed-on are 'scum', then why is there not 50% of media coverage of the positives? I don't know the facts (and only will be swayed by them) but I would assume that 100% of people on job seekers for more than 4 years are piss takers, and those that are on the system for less than 2 years are genuine cases. If the genuine cases outweighed the scourge by 4:1, then why can't we have this ratio reflected in public opinion or the media coverage?
Iun Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 There should be a drive towards making people feel like the welfare system exists to help. This. Have you ever read any of Tourette's Hero? She's a lady with quite debilitating vocal and physical tics who works with children in some kind of playground. The point is, she does "benefit" from the system by receiving subsidy for her wheelchair, care assistants and getting to work, but puts back into it by working. She has an illness, a really serious one that affects absolutely every aspect of her daily life, and yet still gets out there and does work. I would encourage people who scrounge to watch her videos and read more about her, but I have doubts about their ability to comprehend the significance of her vitality compared to their own indolence.
Ike Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 I thought this was a sequel/spin off of Fortune Street for a moment until I read the full title.
Agent Gibbs Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 The Benefits system is a joke though really,its a mess at every level, it can be easy to get onto and easy to "earn" more money on it than working, but its set up where people who want to be on it short term find it dificult to get off the system, or gain the benefits they want. A few examples My friend she's 28, 2 kids under 7, her partner lives with her in a private rented property, that they get some housing benefit towards as she wasn't working, and for a time they weren't living together (once they did she notified them and lost some benefits). She hated being on Benefits while she had her kid(s), and they struggled on just his wage, so when she only had one kid and he went to school she went to the job centre asking about these retraining schemes and university grants they claim are available to get back to work....she wanted to do nursing as she planned to do before getting preggers, and they refused to send her on the courses, infact they said her partner earned too much for her to be eligable for any grants (he's on about £18,000 working in aldi or there abouts, its £9 something an hour), so they struggled and she took out student loans and put her self through, and during which they had another kid and she continued. So far she has her Lvl4 (iirc) in nursing and she's doing her final top up for further qualifications. Despite all this, the benefits system has hindered them, the nursing degree had a bursery, which she used to offset her education, however they said it was income and cut their benefits and said she owed money for the time she had the extra money, not loads mind you they were quick to "catch" her. Personally i think its diabolical, theres been months they've not paid her, resulting in her going into overdrafts at the bank causing fees, they refused to pay for her eductation, but then classed a benefit of it (that went to fund it) as income and took money, its just all wrong! Another friend of mine and her husband who's also a mate, they married 10 years ago, bought a house, have worked since the age of 16, the other year she had a second child, and she looked to quit her job to look after the kid, and went to the job centre to discuss child tax credits, any child care help, posibility of open university courses etc........They advised her she'd be better off as a single parent claiming as they would pay for her home and she'd be better off than living with her husband! as she's not some sort of scum bag driven by money she actually kicked off and complained and left the place...and a few weeks later found a part time job with childcare and together they struggled on....without any benefits, despite them being offered freely if she left her husband and a third example, the bad one years ago when i was going out with my Ex, her best mate, had a friend who i had the misfortune of meeting on several occasions. This friend and her husband had 5 kids, lived on benefits and loved it, joked about doing what they wanted and shagging all day while the kids were at school, when the last governemtn did the return to work thing where long term dole scum (and i'm happy to refer to these people as such) the husband joked how he'd do it, but he'd do it so bad he'd be let go and could go back on benefits until the next time he was forced to work! This is a bloke who was in his late 30's and hadn't had a job for over 10 years. His argument/explanation to the situation was he couldn't afford to work because of all his kids and he earnt more on the dole, plus why work when he got it for free. He stopped working when he was made redundant years ago and had 2 kids, they had another kid and found he earnt more on the dole... shortly before breaking up with my Ex, one of the last times i encountered them, they were due a 6th child, and the mother actually joked (i hope) that it meant an extra £200 and a holiday just to have another kid... its like the sterotype in reality Benefits are stupid and don't work as intended, it needs a major overhaul and there needs to be a cap on maximum amount paid, and the amount of children they pay out for just to stop the abuse of this system. I used to be very liberal, but experiences in my life and meeting people like the third example, made my views on benefits go a bit more right wing, so i'm more centre aligned with it now, leaning to the right
nightwolf Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 They seem to (due to it being in the Mirror and DailyMail I won't 100% take their word) be upset that they were shown in a bad light. From what I can gather they spoke of shoplifting and taking drugs. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone from Channel 4 tells me they are going to film my life, to show it in a good light, I'm not going to start talking about the above two things. Think clearly 'benefits street'. Benefits are a tricky subject, determining who deserves what is not something I could ever say myself. I can only speak in experience that for those that do graft it can sometimes be hard to see benefits as anything other than bad, to be seen as something of a free ride. (This isn't necessarily my own view, but those I've heard day-to-day working environment, out of work and the media). For me, well.. I feel it needs work. This opinion comes from when my Dad desperately needed help, my Dad has worked hard and been working since he was 15 in construction(he's now 50) and like most of his generation and current, has earned everything he has, without much help from the government or otherwise. Unfortunately due to the turn of things, he found himself out of work a few years ago and had to start looking into benefits. He was informed he would only get 6 months worth. 6 months. After hard working for so many years. To get so little help was pretty upsetting to him. I get it, Dad wasn't ill, he isn't disabled (and hear hear for benefits for disabilities, I agree they should be given as and where needed to help), he had two kids that had flown the nest and a wife that worked. But it made me so mad and still does. To someone who definitely needed the money (he ended up working in waitrose shortly after for 18 months to cover bills). It was awful to see that my Dad was getting less money than I'm earning on a basic pay. Even when working at waitrose I was still earning more. The system isn't perfect and I know, in my head it helps a lot of people. But from what I've seen, read, spoken about it lets so many people down, whether that's because it doesn't give enough or none at all. Bah its tricky, I'm tired and do have enough information on benefits to say 100% about all of it. Mostly the TV program is perhaps not an accurate representation of what is happening, good and bad. The media doesn't report on the good because it doesn't sell. I only wish that those who needed help rather than those who find it easier than not working, got the benefits they needed and this shit didn't grace my TV.
Cube Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 They seem to (due to it being in the Mirror and DailyMail I won't 100% take their word) be upset that they were shown in a bad light. From what I can gather they spoke of shoplifting and taking drugs. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone from Channel 4 tells me they are going to film my life, to show it in a good light, I'm not going to start talking about the above two things. Think clearly 'benefits street'. Channel 4 probably knew exactly what they were doing, and the people involved likely signed a contract which allowed Channel 4 do to exactly what they did.
nightwolf Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Channel 4 probably knew exactly what they were doing, and the people involved likely signed a contract which allowed Channel 4 do to exactly what they did. Exactly. My point was more that the people in the program weren't aware and are therefore very naive to believe Channel 4 would actually show what they said they would. Rather than Channel 4 not being allowed to do something.
Zechs Merquise Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Firstly; it's pretty obvious that these people were picked because they were scum. It's also pretty obvious that the worst bits were cherry picked for the show. It's also fair to say that any show filmed over a 12 month period and condensed into an hour is clearly not representative of their lives. But saying that - the fact that residents were boasting at having over 80 convictions and were proudly gloating to reporters after shoplifting. There were also substance abusers and those who clearly admitted to doing it for the money and had been caught out fiddling the system. These people are scum. The thing that shocks me, is that after speaking to my grandparents (who have sadly passed away) they spoke of the time after the second world war. People genuinely had nothing. Yet they made the best of the small amount they had. Children went to school in their brother's shoes padded out with newspaper because they were too big. Men went to work in the fields and took cold buttered toast as lunch. Families routinely ate 'dripping sandwiches' (which consist of beef fat smeared onto bread) in order to fill them up. Yet despite this real poverty, they maintained their pride. They weren't thieving, they weren't drinking themselves into oblivion and they all kept their houses clean and their gardens in order - what's more the children were polite and well mannered. Now this is anecdotal in many cases as I'm drawing it from personal experience. But the amount of people I know on benefits who live in virtual squalor, are always complaining about a lack of money - yet do nothing all day, smoke, drink and always have enough for an iPhone is shocking. When I see people moan that they have no money for 'X' ('X' usually being a necessity) yet find the money for fags and booze it always annoys me. Of course there needs to be a safety net in society for those in need. But when you see people bemoaning their poverty today when they have iPhones, Sky TV and 42 inch plasma screens it makes me raise an eyebrow.
Agent Gibbs Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 That situation with your dad @nightwolf is almost identical to my Girlfriends dad, he lost his job and only got six months benefits, and now live off handouts from his wife...although in that situation she's an insurance broker and earns £20k plus comission...odd finances for them, they claim they are poor but just did a grand of cosmetic work to his motorbike..... but the point is the system seems to fail people like them, they are older so its harder to find work but the system only allows 6 months of money.....and the other end of the scale you can sign on after leaving school with supposedly no trouble (no reall personal experience of this other than friends who could do that chose not to be that guy)
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