New IP's - Nintendo vs. Nintendon't do enough? [Th'rip]

[Andyliini]

I'm genuinly curious what the development and philosophy was behind this game:

 

 

Was it NINTENDO's attempt to get a piece o' that 'gritty, narrative lovin' Sony/Xbox crowd'?

 

Nopody seems to really like that game. But I certainly did. Don't think it was that gritty, but certainly different of what Nintendo usually publishes. Would make a great movie too.

 

*goes to write a script*

 

EDIT: Too bad it probably doesn't ever get a sequel, the game sold poorly. And that's the problem.

 

1. People demand Nintendo to publish a new IP

2. Nintendo does publish it

3. Nobody buys it

4. Go to square 1

Edited December 16, 2013 by Andyliini

[Retro_Link]

That's a frustration too. It's like Nintendo have got themselves into a situation where their own studios can only put out the dependable games nowadays.

 

The Wii U is being compared to the Gamecube, but I don't know, Nintendo still took risks on the Gamecube...

 

Chibo Robo, Eternal Darkness, Captain Rainbow, Cubivore, Doshin the Giant, even Wario Ware and Luigi's Mansion which they led with.

 

Damn even Waverace, 1080, F-Zero seem like massive risks for Nintendo nowadays, let alone the previous ones!

[RedShell]

If there's one thing I really don't get, it's people that continuously demand new IP from Nintendo, only to then frequently ignore or complain about them when they do come out, suggesting that they aren't quality games or they're games designed for casuals etc...

It seems to be the same kind of people that only like a handful of Nintendo franchises (or even less that that) in the first place, usually Metroid and Zelda.

 

They don't appear to acknowledge Nintendo's roots as an entertainment company, a manufacturer of playing cards, traditional games and toys. After all, that's what Nintendo have always been about, light-hearted entertainment that is inclusive and accessible to as many people as possible.

 

Sure, as a developer of videogames there have been a few examples of Nintendo publishing/creating games with a more focused audience in mind, what you could class as "mature", but overall that's an absolutely minuscule part of what they're about. Nintendo's fundamental style has always been bright, colourful, and most importantly of all, fun!

 

That style of entertainment is intended to be something for potentially everyone to enjoy, but there are obviously going to be people that won't, and that's fine, but those people shouldn't then insinuate that Nintendo need to change and produce games in a different way just to make something that'll appeal to them.

If you don't like the way Nintendo produce games, then there are many alternatives for you to choose from.

But it seems some people don't want to try those alternatives, for some bizarre reason they want Nintendo to change, and that to me is very wrong.

Edited December 16, 2013 by RedShell

[Retro_Link]

Good post @RedShell!

I must admit not having a Wii U atm I am beginning to miss that Nintendo magic/experience that you can only find on their consoles/with their games.

 

Is it fair to say Nintendo are playing it far safer these days, and maybe that is what people are getting at, I don't know. They're becoming more predictable at least with their choices?

 

"Light hearted entertainment" on the gamecube would have included as I just mentioned...

Chibo Robo, Captain Rainbow, Cubivore, Doshin the Giant, even Wario Ware

 

what are the equivalents on the Wii and Wii U?

[Fused King]

@RedShell

 

The way I see it is that NINTENDO is the father of videogames and thus I would like to see them be as varied in their output as possible. To show the world what videogames is all about.

It can be art.

It can move you.

It can move families.

It can make you question the world.

It can make you sweat.

It can be fun.

 

NINTENDO is the only company in the world whose bread and butter is making nothing else but incredible gaming hardware and software. Ideally, I'd like to see them as frontrunners in all that games and the gaming world can be, but I guess they can only do so much. And for what they have done and are doing I am more than greatful.

 

Heck, I wouldn't say it's their fault entirely that we're not seeing certain games. It's just the nature of the way this faul market works and which kills creativity and risk taking far more than people would admit.

[Goron_3]

Nopody seems to really like that game. But I certainly did. Don't think it was that gritty, but certainly different of what Nintendo usually publishes. Would make a great movie too.

 

*goes to write a script*

 

EDIT: Too bad it probably doesn't ever get a sequel, the game sold poorly. And that's the problem.

 

1. People demand Nintendo to publish a new IP

2. Nintendo does publish it

3. Nobody buys it

4. Go to square 1

 

Disaster got pretty average reviews and didn't really appeal to anyone. It also came out on a console which had a pretty random audience that not even Nintendo could predict. It might have been a new I.P but let's face it, it wasn't comparable to say Gears of War/Uncharted etc.

 

Some of the response's in this thread are ridiculous and clearly some people are missing the mark completely and don't understand Nintendo's failures since the post N64 days.

 

If Nintendo want to get 3rd parties to support any future Nintendo console when it comes to big AAA games, they need to create the user base first, in the same way Goldeneye helped create a mature audience for the N64. At the moment, Nintendo have a heavy focus on platformers and party games, which results in 3rd parties taking those types of games to the platform and ergo, they sell well.

 

When it comes to games like Watch Dogs, GTA, Assassin's Creed etc, they are clearly aimed at a specific market. If Nintendo want to get that market to buy those games for their system, those players need to own a Nintendo system first; they need to provide new I.P's which have mass appeal to western gamers, in the same way Sony and Microsoft did last generation. The reason why those gamers have had little interest in Nintendo since the end of N64 era is because Nintendo's output has been aimed at the Mario/Zelda audience.

 

Sony are a great example (and it hurts me to say that as a former Nintendo fanboy); they decided early on who their target audience was and established a huge variety of games to support that audience (like Nintendo did with the casual market and the Wii). And what happened when Sony got arrogant and messed up the early PS3 days? They threw new I.P's all over the place and won the gamers back.

 

Of course, I'm delighted we got games like W101 and Last Story, but they are hardly the next 'Goldeneye'. They appeal to a niche and clearly have strong Japanese roots; that's not what Nintendo is lacking.

 

Looking back at the Gamecube, that was a console that saw a hugely diverse gaming library and it was a Nintendo fan's nerd. Despite all the mistakes Nintendo made with that console (it was a friggin' lunch box), it's future would have been different if they didn't surrender the FPS genre to Microsoft in the way they did. They had some momentum with the N64 and it's worth remembering that the N64 did quite well in America, despite all the mistakes that led to it being outshone by the PS. Again, the gave up on the market they had there thanks to games like Goldeneye, Turok and Perfect Dark and they've never got it back since.

 

Sorry for the rant. I've had enough of revision today and am on my fourth pint, lighting candles to mourn the death of the Wii U.

 

Edit. @RedShell, I really like your post and you make a good point, however it's worth remembering that unless Nintendo find lightning in a bottle once again, if they don't widen their output they will not sell consoles. The only audience that is always going to buy games and consoles are gamers, not necessarily the casual audience. I'm not saying Nintendo themselves need to make mature titles, but they need to invest money and talent into getting those games onto their systems exclusively. If not, they will just be known as the kiddy console to play Mario on, which doesn't work in the long run.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Goron_3

[Sheikah]

If there's one thing I really don't get, it's people that continuously demand new IP from Nintendo, only to then frequently ignore or complain about them when they do come out, suggesting that they aren't quality games or they're games designed for casuals etc...

It seems to be the same kind of people that only like a handful of Nintendo franchises (or even less that that) in the first place, usually Metroid and Zelda.

 

They don't appear to acknowledge Nintendo's roots as an entertainment company, a manufacturer of playing cards, traditional games and toys. After all, that's what Nintendo have always been about, light-hearted entertainment that is inclusive and accessible to as many people as possible.

 

Sure, as a developer of videogames there have been a few examples of Nintendo publishing/creating games with a more focused audience in mind, what you could class as "mature", but overall that's an absolutely minuscule part of what they're about. Nintendo's fundamental style has always been bright, colourful, and most importantly of all, fun!

 

That style of entertainment is intended to be something for potentially everyone to enjoy, but there are obviously going to be people that won't, and that's fine, but those people shouldn't then insinuate that Nintendo need to change and produce games in a different way just to make something that'll appeal to them.

If you don't like the way Nintendo produce games, then there are many alternatives for you to choose from.

But it seems some people don't want to try those alternatives, for some bizarre reason they want Nintendo to change, and that to me is very wrong.

 

The thing is though, Nintendo were doing change and new IPs back on the 64 and Cube really rather well, all while keeping that Nintendo magic.

 

No matter how light hearted and fun Nintendo strives to make its games, if you keep reusing the same formula that came off the back of 64/Cube games then people are eventually going to get a bit fed up of it.

[Ashley]

They don't appear to acknowledge Nintendo's roots as an entertainment company, a manufacturer of playing cards, traditional games and toys. After all, that's what Nintendo have always been about, light-hearted entertainment that is inclusive and accessible to as many people as possible.

 

They've always been about light-heated entertainment; playing cards, love hotels, cab services.

 

Although their inability to crack it in the love hotel industry should have been a sign that they aren't able to please adults

[Jamba]

They've always been about light-heated entertainment; playing cards, love hotels, cab services.

 

Although their inability to crack it in the love hotel industry should have been a sign that they aren't able to please adults

 

[Jonnas]

Anyway, I think Nintendo's IPs are rather unique in that they can be quite varied. A lot of games strive on continuing the plot and slowly improving gameplay aspects (and in some cases, that's great), whereas Nintendo's franchises can change completely.

 

Although I do think Nintendo do need another western developer - snap up a load of the out-of-work talent in the UK to start a new UK studio and get them to work on something new.

 

Good points, both of them. Nintendo can come up with an entirely new concept, slap the Mario or Kirby or whatever name on it, and it works.

 

On the other hand, there are only so many concepts one can come up with, when yours is the only perspective. This is why I keep saying they should outsource franchises like Zelda again. And making a new UK studio (picking up remnants from Rare or Eidos, like you once suggested) would be quite a huge step in this direction.

[Guy]

More than new IP, it would be nice to see some more love for Nintendo's ultra neglected IP like Starfox and F-Zero.

 

Why we don't have a new traditional Starfox game is just beyond me at this point.

[dazzybee]

Captain rainbow was a Wii game.

 

We're only a year in and people are complaining about new ip, give them chance. They been pretty good in this regard on the 3ds and Wii. But also with regards to new ip and games that may appeal to a wider gaming audience - well one I'd say how anyone who claims to love video games wouldn't want pikmjn 3 and mario blows my mind. But ultimately wonderful 101 is a new ip. Now people can throw caveats at it because that doesn't support their viewpoint all they like but Nintendo funded this new ip, like the funded Lego city undercover which is pretty much a new ip, like they funded bayonetta2 which appeals to the wider hardcore gamer and like they are making X, which is either a sequel to another gamer-gamer new ip they've created fairly recently or something completely new... And this is what we know about. I would also say Nintendoland is something completely new in way.

[Agent Gibbs]

I guess the gameplay is good enough to stand on it's own even had it been released under the Mario umbrella, but I'd much rather have it as it is, with it's own identity and universe. I love Pikmin.

 

 

 

I don't care for motion controls. Not that I think they're bad (not at all), but to me they're just a gimmick, as is 3D. I've never felt any game was better because of them. That said, gameplay isn't the problem here at all. The games are stale conceptually and narratively. By the way, I thought SS was everything it should've been. It's a great Zelda game!

 

I think you're missing my point, here though... I want Skyward Sword. But instead of 4 Zeldas and 4 Marios, I'd much rather have 1 (or 2) per gen and some new IPs instead of just more Zeldas/Marios. Add some variety, for god's sake! This model is completely unsustainable and quite frankly it's getting increasingly unappealing.

 

360 was a big wet fart when it comes to games... the only exclusives it produced were Forza, Gears Of War, Halo and Fable. It's quite a challenging task choosing the most boring one... the 360 just wasn't pushing any new ground, to be honest.

 

The PS3, however, did deliver... Demon's Souls, 3D Dot Heroes, Journey, Flower, Catherine (which I didn't like), Sound Shapes, Unfinished Swan, Little Big Planet (which I didn't really like that much, either), Heavy Rain (which was also a disappointment) and to some extent even The Last Of Us were all much fresher concepts than anything Nintendo tackled. We need more games that think outside the box on our side of the fence, too.

 

I won't even get into PC gaming, otherwise I'd be up all night... indie gaming has completely revitalized the industry, creatively. You get more good stuff in 1 year than any of this gen's consoles did in their entire lifetime.

 

 

this is where i want nintendo to be, I love some of the Core IP's, i'm nuts over Zelda, but right now its oversaturated with the same ip's compared to their hey day of the SNES, it had 1 Mario game (5 if you count the up-port of All Stars) a new ip in the same universe (Yoshi's Island) and a single Zelda, and it made the wait for more excrusiating but also very good at the same time, the anticipation for more! i don't want them to become like COD where i'm burnt out on the series and wait a few games before rebuying

 

you are spot on with the 360, its why i left MS and migrated back to Sony.

 

I don't think nintendo are doing anything wrong as such, but they best not do another mario game on WiiU for about 4 years, in that time they could revisit old IP's and generate some new ones.....and god damn it money hat some third party support, and advertise more!

 

 

oh and give me a Metroid, first person, creepy atmosphere real solitary experience, let it have some story, make it epic

[Ganepark32]

What's a bit frustrating is the more risky/that-something-abit-different new IP do seem to be there within Nintendo... they just keep cancelling them...

 

 

 

Yes these games don't look much from these video's but the concepts could all be developed.

 

And how about Nintendo take on Eternal Darkness themselves? Actually Retro Studios could be fantastic at developing a sequel to that game, no one does atmosphere better than them!

 

Ah man, I remember seeing that sizzle reel for Wii games when they showed that clip of Cosmic Walker and always wished/hoped they'd do something with it. Even if it turned out to be a sort of Endless Ocean in space type game it would have been an interesting title to add to their repertoire.

 

And Raven Blade. I understand why it was cancelled at the time (because Retro Studios had too many projects on the go and they needed some direction) but I think now that they've proven themselves they should be allowed to go back to some of those games or even start a new IP based on some of the original stuff they were putting together. It's like with mentioning in the other thread that I'd love to see Nintendo give us a big action adventure Kid Icarus game that was more like a Greek tragedy, give that to Retro Studios and they could build off of Raven Blade or something. Wouldn't even need to be based on Kid Icarus.

 

I'm genuinly curious what the development and philosophy was behind this game:

 

 

Was it NINTENDO's attempt to get a piece o' that 'gritty, narrative lovin' Sony/Xbox crowd'?

 

Urgh... Disaster (quite literally in my opinion). It could have been a great game but just felt like a 'Jack-of-all-trades, master of none' which is such a shame as there was promise there. Don't quite understand how it went so wrong as Monolith Soft are a great studio but perhaps at the time weren't best placed to try their hand at this kind of game.

 

But that is definitely the kind of thing Nintendo should be trying again, regardless of whether it sold or not. We see new ideas being put out by Nintendo on the eShop, which is a great testing ground, but even things like Dillon's Rolling Western could have been a much bigger title; a cartoon Spaghetti Western of sorts full of humour and what not.

 

I think the desire is there from some of Nintendo's studios/partners to make these new IPs but I firmly believe Nintendo are shying away from attempting to release them/go for them as big releases because of instances in the past and that is why there is an over reliance on established franchises; because they know the likes of Mario and Zelda will sell. But investing and pushing forward with some of these new ideas and IPs with a good marketing push, whether these games be more mature in their narrative or something like my idea for how Dillon's Rolling Western should have been, can get the results. And Nintendo really should be investing there as one of the companies at the forefront of gaming, as a manufacturer of consoles and cherished IPs.

[Goron_3]

Captain rainbow was a Wii game.

 

We're only a year in and people are complaining about new ip, give them chance. They been pretty good in this regard on the 3ds and Wii. But also with regards to new ip and games that may appeal to a wider gaming audience - well one I'd say how anyone who claims to love video games wouldn't want pikmjn 3 and mario blows my mind. But ultimately wonderful 101 is a new ip. Now people can throw caveats at it because that doesn't support their viewpoint all they like but Nintendo funded this new ip, like the funded Lego city undercover which is pretty much a new ip, like they funded bayonetta2 which appeals to the wider hardcore gamer and like they are making X, which is either a sequel to another gamer-gamer new ip they've created fairly recently or something completely new... And this is what we know about. I would also say Nintendoland is something completely new in way.

 

Of course those games are new but the problem Nintendo have is that those games do not appeal hugely to western games who buy xbox's and Playstation's. Like I mentioned above, Nintendo need to get an equivalent of 'Goldeneye' back on their system; an exclusive game with huge mass appeal particularly to western gamers. It's clear they haven't invested in western studios over the last few years and that's what is hurting them in those markets.

[liger05]

Of course those games are new but the problem Nintendo have is that those games do not appeal hugely to western games who buy xbox's and Playstation's. Like I mentioned above, Nintendo need to get an equivalent of 'Goldeneye' back on their system; an exclusive game with huge mass appeal particularly to western gamers. It's clear they haven't invested in western studios over the last few years and that's what is hurting them in those markets.

 

It's all about looking at market trends and catering for that market. People may not like the fact that the same titles like COD, BF4, Fifa, GTA etc etc dominate the sales charts but thats the reality and to ignore that market to me doesnt make sense.

[RedShell]

RedShell, I really like your post and you make a good point, however it's worth remembering that unless Nintendo find lightning in a bottle once again, if they don't widen their output they will not sell consoles. The only audience that is always going to buy games and consoles are gamers, not necessarily the casual audience. I'm not saying Nintendo themselves need to make mature titles, but they need to invest money and talent into getting those games onto their systems exclusively. If not, they will just be known as the kiddy console to play Mario on, which doesn't work in the long run.

But Nintendo have traditionally made profit from their hardware, admittedly Wii U is the first console that they're selling at a loss, but it's apparently nothing major as it only takes a single software sale to turn that around:

 

Selling hardware at a loss is a decidedly un-Nintendo-like practice. Iwata made headlines last October when he first revealed the company would be losing money on each Wii U sold. However, the following month Nintendo of America president Reggie Fils-Aime downplayed the significance of the profit shortfall, saying "as soon as we get the consumer to buy one piece of software, then that entire transaction becomes profit positive."

So with that in mind, once/if they start making profit on the hardware again, plus making profit on their software and if there are enough Nintendo fans out there to keep buying their games, surely that's all Nintendo need.

 

Obviously they won't reach the same levels of success as they did with the Wii like that, not by a looooooong way, but it's not like they're going to go out of business or anything either.

 

The thing is though, Nintendo were doing change and new IPs back on the 64 and Cube really rather well, all while keeping that Nintendo magic.

 

No matter how light hearted and fun Nintendo strives to make its games, if you keep reusing the same formula that came off the back of 64/Cube games then people are eventually going to get a bit fed up of it.

I guess anyone that gets fed up will just have to move on to something else then. Like I mentioned before, there are many alternatives, more than ever!

Also, for every individual that does get fed up, there are bound to be people that are playing Nintendo games for the first time. So I really don't think Nintendo need to become something they're not and struggle just to try and keep hold of a few customers that only appreciate a small portion of their output anyway, when they can continue to produce the kind of games that they are comfortable making and hopefully continue to attract their existing fans plus newcomers.

 

They've always been about light-heated entertainment; playing cards, love hotels, cab services.

 

Although their inability to crack it in the love hotel industry should have been a sign that they aren't able to please adults

Edited December 17, 2013 by RedShell

[Sheikah]

So I really don't think Nintendo need to become something they're not and struggle just to try and keep hold of a few customers that only appreciate a small portion of their output anyway, when they can continue to produce the kind of games that they are comfortable making and hopefully continue to attract their existing fans plus newcomers.

 

 

I have a very hard time believing this. The Wii U is doing pretty badly right now; they definitely need to change dramatically in some areas because it's more than just a 'few customers' (or rather potential customers) that aren't happy with it.

[Goron_3]

But Nintendo have traditionally made profit from their hardware, admittedly Wii U is the first console that they're selling at a loss, but it's apparently nothing major as it only takes a single software sale to turn that around:

 

So with that in mind, once/if they start making profit on the hardware again, plus making profit on their software and if there are enough Nintendo fans out there to keep buying their games, surely that's all Nintendo need.

 

Obviously they won't reach the same levels of success as they did with the Wii like that, not by a looooooong way, but it's not like they're going to go out of business or anything either.

 

I'm not sure why you starting referring to making a profit on each unit sold? The gamecube and N64 were both power houses and Nintendo made a profit on each. Unfortunately their job as a company is not just to make a profit; it's to show growth.

 

'If there are enough Nintendo fans out there to keep buying their games, surely that's all Nintendo need'.

 

Iwata has stated numerous times that sales anywhere near the Gamecube (about 22mil LTD) would be considered a failure and the Wii U would be lucky to get there at this rate. If you take the N64 as the minimum amount of consoles that they would be happy with (around the mid-30 million mark), it's clear they have a LOT of work to do.

 

You also mentioned that Nintendo should stick to what they do and I think we're all agreeing with you! My point is that what helped the SNES and N64 (the latter actually tracked ahead of the PS in America for its first year despite all its problems and lack of games) is that they ensured they had a diverse library of games to meet the needs of all gamers. I'm not saying Nintendo themselves need to make their next 'goldeneye' equivalent as it's not their style but seriously, you don't think they can get someone like Retro or a new western studio to do it for them? Goldeneye changed the image of the N64 and Rare's loss basically forfeited that entire market to Microsoft; even the Gamecube with ALL of it's amazing titles couldn't appeal to the gamers they lost to Sony and Microsoft.

 

The Wii U is currently only aimed at the most hardcore Nintendo fans (Yarn Yoshi, Pikmin, W101, DKC) and the casual market (Wii Fit, WSC etc) and that's what they need to address.

 

At this point in its lifespan, I think its too late to get the attention of the majority of gamers, especially with the XBone and PS4 out. I hope they can just

focus on getting people who are 'on the fence' when it comes to getting another Nintendo console and maybe get the system to Gamecube numbers.

[Retro_Link]

I'd love Nintendo to stick to what they do and create some new character driven IP's... let's have some new Nintendo characters already!!

 

(I will settle for Nintendo releasing their existing IP's they keep ignoring)

Edited December 17, 2013 by Retro_Link

[Goron_3]

I'd love Nintendo to stick to what they do and create some new character driven IP's... lets' have some new Nintendo characters already!!

 

(I will settle for Nintendo releasing their existing IP's they keep ignoring)

 

Tbh if they made a new F-Zero, a Platinum games Starfox and a 2D metroid, I'd love them even more. Of course, I doubt that would do much in terms of sales other than get people off the fence :/

[RedShell]

Unfortunately their job as a company is not just to make a profit; it's to show growth.

It's got to be pretty damn difficult to show growth after the Wii though. Even if the Wii U had been more of a success, if was very unlikely to sell over 100 million.

What goes up...

 

I'm not saying Nintendo themselves need to make their next 'goldeneye' equivalent as it's not their style but seriously, you don't think they can get someone like Retro or a new western studio to do it for them?

I don't know, probably. But does it make a difference at this stage? I think it was easier to change the image of the N64, from what I recall, people wanted it but just thought it was too expensive. While the Wii U seems to have a problem with both price and desirability.

 

Anyway, let's see what today's Nintendo Direct brings.

[Pestneb]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/comment/editors-corner/hell-wrong-nintendo-194713007.html#aV06Smc

 

Just wondering what people think of this?