New IP's - Nintendo vs. Nintendon't do enough? [Th'rip]

[Goron_3]

Yeah I'm aware of the whole fur thing, Retro have bigged it up since the game was announced, but Nintendo did something similar in Galaxy

 

 

You can't tell me that's where all the Wii U's extra power is all being diverted to!

 

Fur aside, you can't tell me the games don't look very similar.

 

Believe me I'm not putting the game down, I'm really excited for it!... I just think more could be done with it to really showcase the Wii U. Put the same effort they're putting into the fur into the rest of the game.

 

EDIT: Plus this IS Retro Studio's we're talking about here!! They get the most out of a console don't they?!

 

And you've literally highlighted Nintendo's problem with this generation. They have no idea what to do other than churn out sequels to whatever sold on the Wii.

 

Donkey Kong sales will be interesting come Feb or whenever it is.

[Serebii]

And you've literally highlighted Nintendo's problem with this generation. They have no idea what to do other than churn out sequels to whatever sold on the Wii.

 

Donkey Kong sales will be interesting come Feb or whenever it is.

Yeah that's it exactly. I remember playing new Pikmin and Wonderful 101 on the Wii. Nintendo are clearly also the only company who release new iterations of their old IPs too.

 

Please refrain from exaggeration.

[Goron_3]

Yeah that's it exactly. I remember playing new Pikmin and Wonderful 101 on the Wii. Nintendo are clearly also the only company who release new iterations of their old IPs too.

 

Please refrain from exaggeration.

 

You've lost me.

 

I've gone back and played Pikmin 1 and 2 on the GC since Pikmin 3 came out and Pikmin 3 really is just more of the same (but with a map on the controller!). The Wonderful 101 is great but let's be honest, it's for a niche. NSMB, Wii Sports Club, Donkey Kong, a Wind Waker port…Come on, you think that's the best a company can come up with when they've had 7 years to adapt to the fact that the industry has moved to the west? They haven't made any investments and have no idea who their market is anymore.

 

Also, I never said there's anything wrong with releasing new iterations of old IPs, but Nintendo's problem is that they rely solely on them to sell systems. I say this as a huge Nintendo fan but when you have Sony investing in games like Puppeteer, The Last of Us and Beyond in the year they are release a new system, you know who's leading the industry in terms of innovation.

 

You're in denial as much as Nintendo are. And if you reply this time, please refrain from exaggeration.

[Jamba]

@Goron_3 as much as I agree with a lot of what you're saying, you seems to be ignoring both Mario 3D World and Nintendoland in that assessment which would counter your argument. But you have a good point, the mix is wrong and I'm wondering how much both Mario Kart and Smash are going to highlight the iterative nature of those franchises.

 

I'm starting to think that Nintendo are concentrating more of their development force on the 3DS, which would make a lot of strategic sense. Customers in the west do show a tendency to spend predictably on Nintendo consoles so I can understand why they are putting those franchises on the Wii U. I'm just wondering what they are going to do once they have run out? Will they leave the console to die like the Wii and just let it turn into a box that people only play Mario Kart, Smash, NSMB and M3DW on?

[Andyliini]

Going by this thread, Nintendo's biggest problem are it's own undemanding fans...

 

A new IP by EAD. I don't care what as long as it's good. Enough of the same old names, it's about damn time they went new places. It's been 12 years since Pikmin.

 

I find it amusing people are still murmuring this same mantra, especially since it's not true. But of course, people ignore new IP's if THEY didn't personally consider it then new coming of a christ.

[Oxigen_Waste]

I find it amusing people are still murmuring this same mantra, especially since it's not true. But of course, people ignore new IP's if THEY didn't personally consider it then new coming of a christ.

 

Show me EAD's new IPs, then. 'cause that's what I said.

 

(If you're happy with Steel Diver and the Wii "something" line of products, kudos to you, but they're not what the fans want, by any stretch of the imagination, pretending otherwise will get you nowhere in this discussion).

Edited December 15, 2013 by Oxigen_Waste

[Andyliini]

Show me EAD's new IPs, then. 'cause that's what I said.

 

(If you're happy with Steel Diver and the Wii "something" line of products, kudos to you, but they're not what the fans want, by any stretch of the imagination, pretending otherwise will get you nowhere in this discussion).

 

New IP's nevertheless, that's all that matters. You said there where nothing, which was just bullshit, however you twist it.

[Pestneb]

Going by this thread, Nintendo's biggest problem are it's own undemanding fans...

 

A new IP by EAD. I don't care what as long as it's good. Enough of the same old names, it's about damn time they went new places. It's been 12 years since Pikmin.

 

I don't actually understand your problem here.

A new IP = instantly good?

 

So if say in pikmin we had mario... and the pikmin were infact toads... but the mechanic otherwise remained identical, the game would have been utter shite, whereas, because we had a unknown guy "olimar" and coloured onions, the game rocked your world??

 

Or would you count mario world, new smb and mario kart as 3 separate IPs, despite obviously gravitating around one character?

[Jonnas]

Show me EAD's new IPs, then. 'cause that's what I said.

 

(If you're happy with Steel Diver and the Wii "something" line of products, kudos to you, but they're not what the fans want, by any stretch of the imagination, pretending otherwise will get you nowhere in this discussion).

 

You did say the new IP had to be "good"... But surely we're talking subjective "good"?

 

Mind you, I know the Wii series, Nintendogs, Brain Training, Face Raiders, etc. attracted a different sort of fans than Pikmin or Starfox, but still, that's kind of what new IPs do

 

Or would you count mario world, new smb and mario kart as 3 separate IPs, despite obviously gravitating around one character?

 

I definitely count Super Mario World and NSMB as the same IP, it's the same kind of 2D platforming. Or did you mean 3D World?

[RedShell]

If you're happy with Steel Diver and the Wii "something" line of products, kudos to you, but they're not what the fans want, by any stretch of the imagination

You clearly don't know any real Nintendo fans.

[Jonnas]

I've gone back and played Pikmin 1 and 2 on the GC since Pikmin 3 came out and Pikmin 3 really is just more of the same (but with a map on the controller!). The Wonderful 101 is great but let's be honest, it's for a niche.

 

I think Serebii's point is that Pikmin 1&2 weren't Wii games, they're games almost 10 years old, now.

 

Also, your point about W101 sums up why Nintendo puts more emphasis on sequels: anything that deviates from the norm is apparently "niche". Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem are niche too, I take it.

 

Truth be told, on one moment you say Nintendo doesn't innovate much, and in the same breath you say the more original Wii U title is "niche", as if to dismiss it. I am honestly not seeing your point. If it is about selling the console, then surely you're answering your own question when you say their lesser known titles are niche.

[Goron_3]

I think Serebii's point is that Pikmin 1&2 weren't Wii games, they're games almost 10 years old, now.

 

Also, your point about W101 sums up why Nintendo puts more emphasis on sequels: anything that deviates from the norm is apparently "niche". Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem are niche too, I take it.

 

Truth be told, on one moment you say Nintendo doesn't innovate much, and in the same breath you say the more original Wii U title is "niche", as if to dismiss it. I am honestly not seeing your point. If it is about selling the console, then surely you're answering your own question when you say their lesser known titles are niche.

 

I think you missed my point so sorry for not being clear. In the case of W101 though, it is not the type of game, regardless of what console it is released on, that will drive an install base, because the genre and art style that the game has does not have mass appeal, particularly in the west. Don't get me wrong, I adore the game and put it alongside Bayonetta in terms of PG's output but in the west, given the way the industry has moved in the last few years, it's not the type of game Nintendo need.

 

They've had years to invest in studios and they need to take a page out of Sony's book and say 'Look, gamers want these types of games, let's throw our hat in the ring and show them we can do it better'. I'm not saying they shouldn't put out niche games that appeal to the most hardcore of hardcore gamers; heck, the Gamecube is my favourite console ever because they served gamers like us well, but they lost the 'Goldeneye' audience to Microsoft and never tried to get them back.

 

I'm not saying that they should focus only on Western tastes and exclusively develop more 'epic' games like TLOU or whatever, but a few of those games, exclusive to the Nintendo platform, would really help to not only drive a more 'mature' userbase but also get Nintendo less of a 'kiddy' reputation. Most of my friends who grew up on Playstation didn't really view it as a kiddy console because of its FPS's, but once the Gamecube came out (and then the Wii), their view of Nintendo as a company is one that makes consoles that are almost exclusively for kids.

 

Back on topic, I'm replaying Bayonetta and I'm so hyped for the sequel. If they can nail a stable frame rate….

[Oxigen_Waste]

New IP's nevertheless, that's all that matters. You said there where nothing, which was just bullshit, however you twist it.

 

You knew exactly what I meant from the very start. Don't play coy.

 

I don't actually understand your problem here.

A new IP = instantly good?

 

So if say in pikmin we had mario... and the pikmin were infact toads... but the mechanic otherwise remained identical, the game would have been utter shite, whereas, because we had a unknown guy "olimar" and coloured onions, the game rocked your world??

 

Or would you count mario world, new smb and mario kart as 3 separate IPs, despite obviously gravitating around one character?

 

Bolded part - When I say I want a new IP it means something completely new, both in universe and gameplay. And no, it doesn't mean instantly good, but it hopefully means "different". And wether that turns out to be good or bad, the important part is to keep pushing themselves as developers. Which Nintendo has stopped doing quite a long time ago.

 

As for the rest of your post, don't be daft. :P

 

 

You did say the new IP had to be "good"... But surely we're talking subjective "good"?

 

Mind you, I know the Wii series, Nintendogs, Brain Training, Face Raiders, etc. attracted a different sort of fans than Pikmin or Starfox, but still, that's kind of what new IPs do

 

The problem with those games is that they were meant to appeal to a specific crowd which has since moved on. The 100M Wii audience is gone and they're never coming back, it's about time Nintendo stopped catering to them.

 

You clearly don't know any real Nintendo fans.

 

How do you guys not see this is why the Wii U is failing so hard? The hardcore crowd has been completely alienated by and lost hope in Nintendo. And now that the casuals have moved on, all that's left is us, the Nintendo fans. We alone are not enough to keep the Wii U afloat, and the same old 3 or 4 big names aren't enough to convince anyone else to jump in anymore. Nintendo are alone with the Wii U, it's success or failure depends only on them changing their stubborn ways, 3rd party games aren't going to save it, so they better step up their game.

 

I'm not saying there isn't room for some lighter IPs (hell, I fucking love Pushmo), but we (or at least I) need more than that.

[Goron_3]

You knew exactly what I meant from the very start. Don't play coy.

 

 

 

Bolded part - When I say I want a new IP it means something completely new, both in universe and gameplay. And no, it doesn't mean instantly good, but it hopefully means "different". And wether that turns out to be good or bad, the important part is to keep pushing themselves as developers. Which Nintendo has stopped doing quite a long time ago.

 

As for the rest of your post, don't be daft. :P

 

 

 

 

The problem with those games is that they were meant to appeal to a specific crowd which has since moved on. The 100M Wii audience is gone and they're never coming back, it's about time Nintendo stopped catering to them.

 

 

 

How do you guys not see this is why the Wii U is failing so hard? The hardcore crowd has been completely alienated by and lost hope in Nintendo. And now that the casuals have moved on, all that's left is us, the Nintendo fans. We alone are not enough to keep the Wii U afloat, and the same old 3 or 4 big names aren't enough to convince anyone else to jump in anymore. Nintendo are alone with the Wii U, it's success or failure depends only on them changing their stubborn ways, 3rd party games aren't going to save it, so they better step up their game.

 

I'm not saying there isn't room for some lighter IPs (hell, I fucking love Pushmo), but we (or at least I) need more than that.

 

Yup. You nailed it. Stubborn is the perfect way to sum up their problems. The Wii audience moved on years ago and they haven't realised who and where their market are.

[Kav]

Just because Nintendo release the same franchises repeatedly (not overly so) it doesn't mean that they aren't pushing themselves.

 

The last 3 3D Mario titles are testament to this, such brilliant design in each one, each bringing up new and fresh ideas and having absolutely dazzling gameplay! In these games alone it's evident that Nintendo are pushing themselves. To say so otherwise is silly.

[Pestneb]

 

 

Bolded part - When I say I want a new IP it means something completely new, both in universe and gameplay. And no, it doesn't mean instantly good, but it hopefully means "different". And wether that turns out to be good or bad, the important part is to keep pushing themselves as developers. Which Nintendo has stopped doing quite a long time ago.

 

As for the rest of your post, don't be daft. :P

 

 

 

 

I agree it's daft, but you just said "both in universe" which actually implies the remainder of my post was broadly accurate, if exaggerated - if it had been mario and the toads you would have been dissatisfied with exactly the same game?

 

Still, for gamers I agree with you. For Nintendo, I actually think they are doing very well.

[bob]

Guys, can we stick to the right topic please. I want to masturbate at the thought of that Pokemon game, not listen to pointless squabbling about what is an IP or not.

[Oxigen_Waste]

I agree it's daft, but you just said "both in universe" which actually implies the remainder of my post was broadly accurate, if exaggerated - if it had been mario and the toads you would have been dissatisfied with exactly the same game?

 

Still, for gamers I agree with you. For Nintendo, I actually think they are doing very well.

 

Both in universe AND gameplay. Meaning, no, I wouldn't want a game like you described, as it'd essentially be Pikmin and what I crave are new experiences.

 

Just because Nintendo release the same franchises repeatedly (not overly so) it doesn't mean that they aren't pushing themselves.

 

The last 3 3D Mario titles are testament to this, such brilliant design in each one, each bringing up new and fresh ideas and having absolutely dazzling gameplay! In these games alone it's evident that Nintendo are pushing themselves. To say so otherwise is silly.

 

I've never for a second doubted their technical abilities, but they've become increasingly stagnant, creatively. Other M was the only game to push any of their IPs in new directions, this gen. It failed miserably, but I still applaud the attempt. Otherwise, they've relied mostly on safe and harmless formulas with a few fresh ideas (as you mentioned) peppered throughout... crafted to perfection, yes, but increasingly stale. Much like Platinum, they are masters of game design... however they seem to have lost their thirst for the unexplored.

 

This doesn't make games like Galaxy or Skyward Sword are any less perfect, but it does make me sad that they never deviate from such standards.

[Kav]

I'd argue that the motion control in Skyward Sword made that game feel more fresh than almost anything the PS3 & 360 offered up.

[Goron_3]

I'd argue that the motion control in Skyward Sword made that game feel more fresh than almost anything the PS3 & 360 offered up.

 

It might have felt fresh but it's usage outside of everything apart from swordplay could have been done better with the analogue stick. I still have nightmares about having to use M+ to control that stupid beetle thing.

[Blade]

I applaud what Nintendo did with Skyward Sword. Everything about it felt fresh compared to other Zeldas. I get that a lot of people did not like the direction Nintendo took the series in this game but the whole experience felt new. It did not feel like I was playing a rehash of OoT.

[Pestneb]

Both in universe AND gameplay. Meaning, no, I wouldn't want a game like you described, as it'd essentially be Pikmin and what I crave are new experiences.

 

I'm not suggesting were they to do this today, I was talking about a hypothetical choice made prior to pikmins original release, to name olimar mario, and the pikmin as toads?

[Sheikah]

I agree it's daft, but you just said "both in universe" which actually implies the remainder of my post was broadly accurate, if exaggerated - if it had been mario and the toads you would have been dissatisfied with exactly the same game?

 

Still, for gamers I agree with you. For Nintendo, I actually think they are doing very well.

 

No, he said it had to be different gameplay too if you look back at his post.

[Oxigen_Waste]

I'm not suggesting were they to do this today, I was talking about a hypothetical choice made prior to pikmins original release, to name olimar mario, and the pikmin as toads?

 

I guess the gameplay is good enough to stand on it's own even had it been released under the Mario umbrella, but I'd much rather have it as it is, with it's own identity and universe. I love Pikmin.

 

I'd argue that the motion control in Skyward Sword made that game feel more fresh than almost anything the PS3 & 360 offered up.

 

I don't care for motion controls. Not that I think they're bad (not at all), but to me they're just a gimmick, as is 3D. I've never felt any game was better because of them. That said, gameplay isn't the problem here at all. The games are stale conceptually and narratively. By the way, I thought SS was everything it should've been. It's a great Zelda game!

 

I think you're missing my point, here though... I want Skyward Sword. But instead of 4 Zeldas and 4 Marios, I'd much rather have 1 (or 2) per gen and some new IPs instead of just more Zeldas/Marios. Add some variety, for god's sake! This model is completely unsustainable and quite frankly it's getting increasingly unappealing.

 

360 was a big wet fart when it comes to games... the only exclusives it produced were Forza, Gears Of War, Halo and Fable. It's quite a challenging task choosing the most boring one... the 360 just wasn't pushing any new ground, to be honest.

 

The PS3, however, did deliver... Demon's Souls, 3D Dot Heroes, Journey, Flower, Catherine (which I didn't like), Sound Shapes, Unfinished Swan, Little Big Planet (which I didn't really like that much, either), Heavy Rain (which was also a disappointment) and to some extent even The Last Of Us were all much fresher concepts than anything Nintendo tackled. We need more games that think outside the box on our side of the fence, too.

 

I won't even get into PC gaming, otherwise I'd be up all night... indie gaming has completely revitalized the industry, creatively. You get more good stuff in 1 year than any of this gen's consoles did in their entire lifetime.

 

______________

 

Sorry for the slight derail, but don't worry, I won't bother you further. Just about to go on vacation for a week. :P

[Sheikah]

Just because Nintendo release the same franchises repeatedly (not overly so) it doesn't mean that they aren't pushing themselves.

 

The last 3 3D Mario titles are testament to this, such brilliant design in each one, each bringing up new and fresh ideas and having absolutely dazzling gameplay! In these games alone it's evident that Nintendo are pushing themselves. To say so otherwise is silly.

 

I would say whether they do it 'overly so' would be defined not by the number of years between their releases but generally how much is conserved between each sequel, as well as whether there are a fair few games in the series that feel very samey

 

3D Mario isn't the worst offender, but there's no doubt they're guilty for quite a few of their series now. New Super Mario Bros would be the most guilty for me. Feels like pretty much the same game every time.