Growing apathetic about once loved series

[Glen-i]

Last night, I was lying in bed, thinking to myself about something incredibly out of character for myself.

@markderoos hit me up on Discord, asking if I'd like to help him catch a Cinderace in Pokémon Scarlet/Violet. For the sake of context, it's a fight that goes a lot smoother if you have friends with adequetely trained Pokémon to help out.

Unfortunately, I had to tell him that I couldn't help, not because I wasn't available or anything, but because I hadn't finished the game yet.
It really hit home that me, the kind of nutjob who would get to the credits of a remake of a Pokémon game in less then 2 days and then write a nerdy post about all the small little mechanic changes I noticed, can't even muster up the effort to finish the last quarter of this game.

The game has been out for more then a month at this point.

Before Scarlet and Violet were released, @Hero-of-Time asked me this...

Quote

With you arguably being the biggest Pokemon fan left on here, what would actually make you give up on the mainline franchise? I know you've not been happy with a lot of decisions made with recent entries and I was curious what would be your tipping point.

To shorten the answer I gave, I said it was the battle system. I love mainline Pokémon's battle system and how much freedom there is in strategies. After being incredibly disappointed by Legends: Arceus, I concluded that the one two punch of boring overworlds and a mangled battle system was what made me hate the game. Theoretically, going back to the more standard battles should help to mitigate my dislike of open worlds.

Safe to say, it's not enough.

I know I've half joked about how much I think Pokémon is going the wrong direction, but for the first time ever, I'm seriously entertaining the notion of not even bothering with the next generation.
Sure, my Pokédex completion rate will be completely ruined, but it's not worth it if I have to trudge through another boring, vapid, empty, open world that goes out of it's way to not have the player engage in what I think makes Pokémon fun. And with how successful Sca/Vi are, Game Freak will almost certainly double down on that structure.

I've become one of those old curmudgeons who doesn't like modern Pokémon, ironically, it's because the series is changing too much, other then the usual reason. It's still upsetting.

Anyway, any similar stories out there?

[Hero-of-Time]

It's sad but it happens and not just with gaming. Things change over time and you have to either adapt with them or simply move on and remember the good times you had. Easier said than done when you've followed a franchise for so long but you have to be honest with yourself and know when it's time to walk away from something that is no longer bringing you joy.

[Aperson]

Series change, adapt and evolve. It doesn't mean that everyone is going to like it. Sometimes you wind up missing a certain kind of gameplay.

 

That being said, the indie market does a fantastic job with being able to fill the niches of gameplay styles that have been abandoned by developers. Pokemon is unsurprisingly no exception there, there are games like Temtem, Coromon and Nexomon that are doing their own thing with the Pokemon formula. I think it becomes natural as you get older that you get attatched to certain gameplay styles and become more of a retro gamer, less willing to try something new out.

[Glen-i]

1 hour ago, Hero-of-Time said:

It's sad but it happens and not just with gaming. Things change over time and you have to either adapt with them or simply move on and remember the good times you had. Easier said than done when you've followed a franchise for so long but you have to be honest with yourself and know when it's time to walk away from something that is no longer bringing you joy.

Doesn't help that the same thing happened to me with Zelda in this same generation for the exact same reason. Two of my favourite Nintendo IP's going from "Guaranteed good time" to "It's not for me anymore".
Still, it's not all hopeless, the inevitable remake of Pokémon Black/White will draw me back, and PMD still does what I like about it.

41 minutes ago, Aperson said:

That being said, the indie market does a fantastic job with being able to fill the niches of gameplay styles that have been abandoned by developers. Pokemon is unsurprisingly no exception there, there are games like Temtem, Coromon and Nexomon that are doing their own thing with the Pokemon formula. I think it becomes natural as you get older that you get attatched to certain gameplay styles and become more of a retro gamer, less willing to try something new out.

A fair point, and I've played quite a few of them, but no matter how many different takes I've played, there's always something off about it, and I'm not just talking about the monsters themselves. Nexomon Extinction was a good time, but the battle system felt quite shallow in comparison. It makes a great complimentary game to Pokémon, but it doesn't hit the highs of most of them.

Thank god for indies, but it's like playing one of the many Smash clones out there, they never quite nail the casual fun / competitive seriousness balance.

[Ike]

What annoys me with SV is that they made it harder to breed competitive Pokémon. Synchronise no longer works outside of battle and I can't be bothered with the picnic stuff to breed (unless I'm wrong and it's faster, but I can't be bothered with the sandwich stuff either).

I like having Pokémon with the correct nature, not using the mints unless I have to.

They've nerfed Protean and Libero but there's new Pokémon running around that are broken.

More on topic, and not just bashing Pokémon. This was me with Sonic games. Still buy them sometimes but with lower expectations.

 

[Glen-i]

5 minutes ago, Ike said:

They've needed Protean and Libero but there's new Pokémon running around that are broken.

I just looked this up. Once per switch in, huh? Ouch. My Greninja gets nerfed and it's not even in the game yet!

[Ike]

I meant nerfed but seems you understood 

They've done the same with Zacian and Zamazenta, their ability activates once. Arguably, Zacian should be nerfed though.

[Dcubed]

Zelda has done this for me.  Literally my favourite gaming series and I can't muster anything other than an indignant shrug when it comes to Tears of the Kingdom.  Everything about BOTW and what it has done to not only the Zelda series, but Nintendo as a whole, makes me very very sad.

At least the re-releases have been great.  Links Awakening Switch was a delight, and Skyward Sword HD is an excellent remaster (at least when the Joycons are working properly), but as far as new entries in the series go? Couldn't give less of a shit.

Outside of Nintendo? Plenty of other series have done this for me.  God of War, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy? The list goes on and on; but Zelda? That one really hurts.

Thank God for Metroid Samus Returns and (especially!) Metroid Dread though! Dread was so utterly amazing, I couldn't believe that it actually managed to live up to the 15 year-long wait!  So it's not just me getting old and cranky kong, it's series specific; and especially Zelda specific.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

It's sort of interesting that the two series that desperately needed a shakeup (Pokémon and Zelda) have alienated the relatively small diehard community, or at least going by this thread.

 

I would say whatever Zelda lost (I'm thinking the linear full size dungeons) was completely dwarfed by the sense of exploration and freedom gained in BOTW. We've also only had one game so we can't draw conclusions that they won't return to a standard dungeon format. And Pokémon was probably the most conserved series of all time, to the point I didn't bother to play them any more. Still won't, because the new games look like crap, but they definitely needed to shake things up (and still do, really). Or at least hire some people capable of making a decent 3D game.

[darksnowman]

23 hours ago, Glen-i said:

I know I've half joked about how much I think Pokémon is going the wrong direction, but for the first time ever, I'm seriously entertaining the notion of not even bothering with the next generation.

For me, the wrong direction Pokémon has been going is towards mediocrity and beyond. Somehow, probably because it was the early days when it was still fresh and new, I was able to cut them slack for Ruby when they dropped features because they "needed to learn 16-bit." But when they wanted the same concession for Diamond, I couldn't finish it and never went back until Shield... which unfortunately was garbage.  Then you think, well, they know the Switch now, just wait til you see the next one... and it's shambolic. It seems like they're always making games that are lacking rather than taking the previous generation and building on it. 

So as much as I'd like to battle through and fill up a Pokédex again, until they can get the finger out and make a good game, I can cope without.

I think you should embrace being free of it. It might feel hard but it's good to be able to take a step back and get some perspective. There's no need to be a slave to these things. We can only hope that some year they'll fluke it and make a good one again.  

2 hours ago, Sheikah said:

It's sort of interesting that the two series that desperately needed a shakeup (Pokémon and Zelda) have alienated the relatively small diehard community, or at least going by this thread.

Funny. Nothing was jumping to mind but yeah, you're right, Zelda meets the criteria for me. Just it's fallen so far from my mind I didn't even think of it.   I was chomping at the bit for a shake-up after Skyward Sword as much as anyone and it's such a pity that BotW isn't for me.  I don't deny that they put a great game together or anything. They did a tremendous job with it, crazy to think how much they bucked the trend and I applaud them for it... just open-world doesn't seem to be for me. I think I like to be able to learn the worlds and areas and secret nooks and there's just no way I can hold BotW in my head. It's one massive non-descript area after another, and it's aimless and boring and far too long, imo. 

Right now I'm looking forward to a new file in LttP, OoT and MM (not really up for WW or TP Switch remasters tbh) far more than the new game which I'll just get out of obligation and hope that it clicks with me.  It's always the hope that gets you! I think there's a happy medium they could strike that'd be somewhere between Skyward Sword and BotW so hopefully they shorten it down and bring things back in that direction a bit... but I can't see it. Games are just ballooning beyond all belief nowadays.

This is a sad thread. 

Pour one out for Duke Nukem.

[Ashley]

Curious reading through this thread about an alternative universe where Nintendo created a new open world IP rather than use Zelda. I get why (known franchise = print money) but I'm curious to imagine what Nintendo might have come up with if they had a blank slate rather than using Zelda. 

[Ronnie]

Personally after 16 or so Zelda games doing things a certain way, I was happy to experience something a bit different for (so far) one solitary iteration. Those old games aren't going anywhere and I can replay them anytime. Variety is good imo. But yeah, people handle change differently. It's why I think they're missing a trick not releasing a more typical 2D Zelda game since 2017, but after the incredible success and overall critical acclaim of BOTW, the whole Zelda team's probably been at work on Tears of the Kingdom.

[Jonnas]

Usually, when I grow disillusioned with a series, I come to find that it's usually just the most recent entry (as it once happened with Twilight Princess, Metroid Prime 3, or Fire Emblem Fates)... but there have been cases of a series entirely falling off my interest:

Final Fantasy - I mean, I'm just not a fan of the look and aesthetic of the mainline series since... maybe 10. Thankfully, spinoffs and rereleases keep its classic charm alive, but the only mainline entries to ever grab my interest have been FF14 (which is a genre I dislike) and FF16 (tentative. The game isn't out yet)

Tales series - Symphonia is excellent, and I enjoyed exploring the rest of the series at the time... but the sheer apathy that the series has for the West pissed me off. Furthermore, Abyss turned out to be a vapid game, and from what I've seen, the series has doubled down on being Abyss-like ever since. Not only have they moved away from so many things that made Symphonia great, they barely understand them, judging from how they routinely mooch off Symphonia without doing something interesting with it.

Soul Calibur - Kinda. I thought the series was diminishing its quality ever since II (and the ever-changing movesets didn't exactly help), so this would qualify if it had stopped at V... but then VI came around and revitalised it with a much-needed shot in the arm by a passionate team. If they ever release a VII that keeps the momentum going, I can cross this one off the list.

Kirby - Mostly because this should be a light, relatively cheap series, and it rarely is. The games aren't bad, it's just that they aren't as accessible as I'd like them to be

Pokémon - Since Ruby&Sapphire that my friend group hasn't cared for Pokémon. I still like the spin-offs, but the main series is pretty unattractive for me outside of the social aspect.

Sonic - *siiigh* I just don't like 3D Sonic (even if I liked Unleashed, and might like Colours and Generations as well). 2D Sonic is great, but the company isn't interested in exploring that.

On 31/12/2022 at 10:26 PM, Glen-i said:

A fair point, and I've played quite a few of them, but no matter how many different takes I've played, there's always something off about it, and I'm not just talking about the monsters themselves. Nexomon Extinction was a good time, but the battle system felt quite shallow in comparison. It makes a great complimentary game to Pokémon, but it doesn't hit the highs of most of them.

There is currently an interesting Pokémon-like in development called Cassette Beasts. They had a temporary demo on Steam a few months ago, and I was quite impressed with what I played. The release is planned for 2023, though I'm not totally sure which platforms they're aiming for. I recommend you keep an eye on it, at any rate.

Good luck on finding a monster-collecting RPG that scratches the itch you're missing.

[Dcubed]

10 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Personally after 16 or so Zelda games doing things a certain way, I was happy to experience something a bit different for (so far) one solitary iteration. Those old games aren't going anywhere and I can replay them anytime. Variety is good imo. But yeah, people handle change differently. It's why I think they're missing a trick not releasing a more typical 2D Zelda game since 2017, but after the incredible success and overall critical acclaim of BOTW, the whole Zelda team's probably been at work on Tears of the Kingdom.

That's bullshit.  Every Zelda game plays vastly differently.  You act as if Zelda games are like COD, where every game is basically interchangable.

[Ronnie]

17 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

That's bullshit.  Every Zelda game plays vastly differently.  You act as if Zelda games are like COD, where every game is basically interchangable.

How do you in one post claim that BOTW is an outlier that "did things different to the rest of the series", and then in another criticise me saying the series was a certain way, before BOTW?

Of course every game plays differently, but structurally from a game design pov, the vast majority have a template. I'm not complaining, I've been playing and loving Zelda since the NES, but there was so much online discourse about that traditional formula getting stale after Skyward Sword's release it was obvious a shake-up was on the cards. 

[Sheikah]

That's bullshit.  Every Zelda game plays vastly differently.  You act as if Zelda games are like COD, where every game is basically interchangable.

I wouldn't say they 'play' vastly differently at all. Most 3D console Zelda games since Ocarina of Time have largely played out the same way, mechanistically. Certainly the whole shtick of how you progress through dungeons, get the keys and then boss key and then fight the boss using the weapon you found in it is very similar. And the way your character locks on and engages in combat is very conserved between 3D console titles. There's also many returning weapons and mechanics too like shooting eyes with arrows, hookshotting targets, etc.

 

There's also usually a requirement of getting a set number of medallions/trinkets as well before the end boss pops out, after you which you usually must twunt it with the master sword. Am I wrong?

[Jonnas]

Skyward Sword and the DS Zeldas have significantly different control schemes from the norm. One can also argue that Link Between Worlds significantly alters the usual structure just enough to feel different.

Outside of those cases, "Every Zelda game plays vastly different" feels like hyperbole.

[bob]

I think it's just growing apathetic with everything due to age.

Everything gets shitter as you get older. Nothing matches up to the greatest things of our youth. We can never go back to the best days of our lives.

[darksnowman]

17 hours ago, Sheikah said:

There's also usually a requirement of getting a set number of medallions/trinkets as well before the end boss pops out, after you which you usually must twunt it with the master sword. Am I wrong?

Kinda? Doesn't the end boss twuntage normally hinge on the light arrows?  

17 hours ago, Jonnas said:

Skyward Sword and the DS Zeldas have significantly different control schemes from the norm. One can also argue that Link Between Worlds significantly alters the usual structure just enough to feel different.

Outside of those cases, "Every Zelda game plays vastly different" feels like hyperbole.

A Link Between Worlds is a great shout. Being handed an opened-up familiar version of Hyrule was a top move. Perhaps if they'd worked up to BotW from there over a few games...

39 minutes ago, bob said:

I think it's just growing apathetic with everything due to age.

Everything gets shitter as you get older. Nothing matches up to the greatest things of our youth. We can never go back to the best days of our lives.

Always jumping to the defence of the game makers. Maybe they are older too, less inspired, resting on their laurels. Just look how unambitious they are with the Mario sports games. Again, they had a solid gameplay foundation to build on yet they opt to shoehorn gimmicks in (wrecking the foundation) and skimp on options and modes to play through.  

[Ashley]

I believe it is Al Jean (or at least someone that works on The Simpsons) who when asked how he feels about criticism that the show isn't as good as it used to be responded with something like "who of us is as good as we were twenty years ago?"

[Sheikah]

4 hours ago, darksnowman said:

Kinda? Doesn't the end boss twuntage normally hinge on the light arrows?  

I might be wrong but don't light arrows sort of stun Ganondorf/Ganon in some games, then you slay him with the Master Sword?

Either way we can all agree that the constant "sealing away" of Ganon is total bullshit.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Sheikah

[Sheikah]

5 hours ago, bob said:

I think it's just growing apathetic with everything due to age.

Everything gets shitter as you get older. Nothing matches up to the greatest things of our youth. We can never go back to the best days of our lives.
 

You're right. Then when Breath of the Wild comes along it's genuinely exciting because it feels fresh and different.

[Jonnas]

2 hours ago, Sheikah said:

Either way we can all agree that the constant "sealing away" of Ganon is total bullshit.

That only happened once, right? In Ocarina of Time? Every other instance, Ganon is getting killed in the final fight.

It's the revival rituals that keep bringing him back. There's also at least two other unrelated villains who turn into a suspiciously pig-shaped demon by the end.

[Sheikah]

That only happened once, right? In Ocarina of Time? Every other instance, Ganon is getting killed in the final fight.
It's the revival rituals that keep bringing him back. There's also at least two other unrelated villains who turn into a suspiciously pig-shaped demon by the end.

Sealed, revived. Whatever's going on they don't seem to be able to properly kill the bastard.

[Ike]

He was pretty dead at the the of Wind Waker and Twilight Princess.