Ike Posted October 6, 2019 Posted October 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Aneres11 said: This Eagle dungeon is literally making me hate this game with a passion. Typical Zelda for me. This is why I can’t hold the series in such high regard like everyone else seems to. It goes from fun / challenging to just plain annoying. What exactly are you having trouble with?
Aneres11 Posted October 6, 2019 Posted October 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Ike said: What exactly are you having trouble with? The stupid ball and the pillars. Done it now. Basically started it from scratch and watched a YT video. As I have to do with all Zelda games. I’m aware, I suck at Zelda games. But for the most part I enjoy them until something becomes painful.
BowserBasher Posted October 6, 2019 Posted October 6, 2019 Started this up now, love the style, love the presentation. Breezed through the first three dungeons and got a few heart pieces too. It’s amazing what I remember from the original and have been able to just recall that. Gonna slow my pace down though I don’t think it matters as by today’s standards the game isn’t a long one. Comparing the map in this to Breath of the Wild shows how far we’ve come. 1
Glen-i Posted October 7, 2019 Posted October 7, 2019 Yeah, Eagle's Tower is my favourite Link's Awakening Dungeon. The complexity is welcome to me at that point. That said, the improved map screen in the Switch version was very welcome in planning my route. I used the pins to mark where the Red/Blue crystals were, as well as any parts that might have been blocked due to those. @Aneres11, for the 8th dungeon, I recommend using those pins to mark which staircases connect to each other. There's a lot of them and it can be easy to get lost there. 1 1
Aneres11 Posted October 7, 2019 Posted October 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Glen-i said: Yeah, Eagle's Tower is my favourite Link's Awakening Dungeon. Well of course it is. i think if I had like all the time in the world to sit and play it like when I was a kid with no job and commitments I’d have figured it out. Thats what I’m telling myself anyway. But CBA with that when Yooka Laylee is waiting to be played.
Glen-i Posted October 7, 2019 Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Aneres11 said: i think if I had like all the time in the world to sit and play it like when I was a kid with no job and commitments I’d have figured it out. Thats what I’m telling myself anyway. A dungeon that changed it's layout after you solve its puzzle was pretty revolutionary for Zelda at the time, and from the Game Boy, no less. These days, it's nothing special, but that key gimmick was very memorable for those 90's Nintendo kids. You just didn't see that kind of thing these days. Ah yes, the interminable "Money or time" conundrum. That annoying truth that when you have the time, you don't have the money, and when you grow up and get the money, you no longer have the time. Edited October 7, 2019 by Glen-i 1 1
Dcubed Posted October 7, 2019 Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, BowserBasher said: Started this up now, love the style, love the presentation. Breezed through the first three dungeons and got a few heart pieces too. It’s amazing what I remember from the original and have been able to just recall that. Gonna slow my pace down though I don’t think it matters as by today’s standards the game isn’t a long one. Comparing the map in this to Breath of the Wild shows how far we’ve come. More like it shows how far we've gone backwards... Breath of the Wild wishes it had an overworld that was even an eighth as interesting, well crafted and intricately designed as Link's Awakening's... 9 hours ago, Aneres11 said: Well of course it is. i think if I had like all the time in the world to sit and play it like when I was a kid with no job and commitments I’d have figured it out. Thats what I’m telling myself anyway. But CBA with that when Yooka Laylee is waiting to be played. ... but comments like this are unfortunately why we can't have nice things anymore... People just don't appreciate level design anymore. They don't even understand why a game like Zelda is designed the way it is. They want something brainless and huge; something they can gawk at and run around aimlessly in and to make stupid Youtube videos about; people don't want to even think anymore Edited October 7, 2019 by Dcubed 1
Ronnie Posted October 7, 2019 Posted October 7, 2019 14 minutes ago, Dcubed said: People just don't appreciate level design anymore I appreciate level design a lot. I adore Link's Awakening and countless other Zelda games for that very reason. I also appreciate incredible openworlds that make you feel like a kid going on an adventure again. It's ok to like two different styles of Zelda game. Not every one in a 16+ entry series needs to play identically. We all have opinions, and that's what yours is on BOTW, and that's great, but there's no need to belittle the vast majority of people who played BOTW just because it didn't give you the experience you were looking for. 1
Aneres11 Posted October 7, 2019 Posted October 7, 2019 19 minutes ago, Dcubed said: More like it shows how far we've gone backwards... Breath of the Wild wishes it had an overworld that was even an eighth as interesting, well crafted and intricately designed as Link's Awakening's... ... but comments like this are unfortunately why we can't have nice things anymore... People just don't appreciate level design anymore. They don't even understand why a game like Zelda is designed the way it is. They want something brainless and huge; something they can gawk at and run around aimlessly in and to make stupid Youtube videos about; people don't want to even think anymore Well, hardly. I wouldn’t say I’m the standard with my approach. I’m just lazy. I give up too easily with Zelda games. Often when I find the solution I kick myself. But like I say, Zelda games and I are hardly a match made in heaven even though I do get enjoyment out of them for the most part. Like the last dungeon I did allllll by myself! Well, the last before the egg, which I now need to YT for as I’m just going in and out of those same 4 entrances and I have no clue. See what I mean. Have I missed something? Will going to a phone box tell me? DEAR GOD ITS DIFFICULT!! Etc.
Jonnas Posted October 7, 2019 Posted October 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Dcubed said: People just don't appreciate level design anymore. Hey, I'm a people, and I feel slandered by this statement! 1
Glen-i Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 12 hours ago, Aneres11 said: Like the last dungeon I did allllll by myself! Well, the last before the egg, which I now need to YT for as I’m just going in and out of those same 4 entrances and I have no clue. See what I mean. Have I missed something? Will going to a phone box tell me? DEAR GOD ITS DIFFICULT!! I find that the library is more useful than any old video. 1
MindFreak Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) Yeah, the library. But only after you've found some random item that you don't know that you have to find... or even exists! Edited October 8, 2019 by MindFreak 1
Dcubed Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, MindFreak said: Yeah, the library. But only after you've found some random item that you don't know that you have to find... or even exists! The game literally tells you that you need something to be able to read the tiny text in that book... The trading quest is also mandatory. You must have at least gotten the Pineapple by the time you reach the end of the game (You need it to be able to get Marin to come with you to wake up the walrus). Are you really telling me that you wouldn't even think to complete the trading quest that you've already started? The quest that you have already been doing throughout the entire game and have needed to do to get up to that point? (Whelp! Guess this pineapple is completely useless! Better give up and look up Youtube then...) Come on! Even as a five year old I figured that one out! And people complain about over-tutorialising in modern games... It's because of this Why-Can't-Metroid-Crawl attitude that we have to suffer braindead game design now. Edited October 8, 2019 by Dcubed 2
MindFreak Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) I don't necessarily complete side-quests before completing a game, no. But yes, I did end up completing this one before reaching the end of the game but I had never noticed that small, black book in the library and thus, never got that hint. I only found the trading quest because of a guide telling me that I should do it), I had seen the Yoshi-doll, didn't catch it in a couple of attempts and moved on, forgetting about it. It was the same with the Ocarina, I didn't know it was in the game before accidentally finding it. I found some place speaking of an Ocarina afterwards and it is needed for waking up that darn whale but I found no reference as to where it actually was. You just had to remember that there was that house in early stages of the game. I don't like too much hand-holding in games, I want to experiment and get better at the mechanics of the game but games should at least tell you in some way how to complete the main quest. Several people have complained about this game having moments where you are utterly lost and the game doesn't help you in any way - thus needing to resort to guides. This game has some design flaws that make you wander about aimlessly which a lot of people dislike because games should not waste your time. To most of us, time is precious as it's the only resource we haven't got enough of by now (contrary to when we were kids and could spend days doing nothing in a game, accidentally solving side-quests or something like that) so if a game makes you feel like it wants you to get lost, people complain, because it's not fun. And this game does that several times, especially in the latter half of it. And that's what made me not really enjoy or like the game. Others like that aspect, that's fine. Btw. I have a feeling that without any changes, the first Zelda-game would definitely also have these issues. It's just that Zelda and modern games have changed a lot and some things are just expected from them. So remaking a 26 year old GameBoy-game 1:1 with only some GUI QoL improvement is going to be hit and miss for some people. The GameBoy mechanics and restraints of this game were just too obvious. Also, I don't really do retro gaming. I don't enjoy older games that much. Maybe that's also a part of it? Edited October 8, 2019 by MindFreak 1 1
Aneres11 Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 Great above post and echoes my thoughts. There are a number of instances in the game where it doesn’t make sense what you need to do. Like I say, it’s still very enjoyable overall, but these parts that have me aimlessly wandering around do kill it a bit.
bob Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 Sometimes certain things just fall through the gaps - I remember when I played Wind Waker, I didn't realise you could actually talk to that fish that chases your boat around in the sea. I thought it was an enemy, so I just ran away from it each time, and then never got the advice that it gives you (can't remember what it says, but I know I spent ages sailing around trying to work out where to go next).
Dcubed Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, bob said: Sometimes certain things just fall through the gaps - I remember when I played Wind Waker, I didn't realise you could actually talk to that fish that chases your boat around in the sea. I thought it was an enemy, so I just ran away from it each time, and then never got the advice that it gives you (can't remember what it says, but I know I spent ages sailing around trying to work out where to go next). Hang on! That's actually impossible to miss! As soon as you finish Dragon Roost Cavern (the first dungeon) and you set sail for The Forest Haven, you are forced to encounter one of those fish! (and no, you cannot avoid it). He even fills in the first portion of the map for you! He even tells you to use the bait to talk to them to fill in your map! That's not the game's fault, that's YOUR fault Edited October 8, 2019 by Dcubed 1
bob Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 Hang on! That's actually impossible to miss! As soon as you finish Dragon Roost Cavern (the first dungeon) and you set sail for The Forest Haven, you are forced to encounter one of those fish! (and no, you cannot avoid it). He even fills in the first portion of the map for you! He even tells you to use the bait to talk to them to fill in your map! That's not the game's fault, that's YOUR fault [emoji14] Yeah, but I didn't realise that the thing that was chasing me after that was the same fish! 1
Jonnas Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 23 minutes ago, Dcubed said: Hang on! That's actually impossible to miss! Bob was playing WW in small bursts over the course of months. That's why he forgot. As for the issue at hand, I remember when I was replaying LA last year for the monthly N-E game club, I was rushing through the game, and totally forgot that I needed part of the trading sequence to reach the castle. Indeed, the game doesn't really nudge you to do the sequence until that part. I consider it a small design hiccup (not nearly as bad as LttP's last couple of dungeons, but still). But the funny thing is, the game doesn't nudge you to do the dungeons, either. We, who are familiar with dungeon/level design, know that there's a checklist to fulfill, so we think we ought to "beat the game" first. Someone who jumps into it totally blind about Zelda conventions is likely going to try all the things that this adventure game offers, whether it looks optional or not, and is unlikely to ever get stuck as a result. In an ironic way, being savvy about level design is exactly why Mindfreak felt stuck so often. 1 1
MindFreak Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 51 minutes ago, Jonnas said: But the funny thing is, the game doesn't nudge you to do the dungeons, either. We, who are familiar with dungeon/level design, know that there's a checklist to fulfill, so we think we ought to "beat the game" first. Someone who jumps into it totally blind about Zelda conventions is likely going to try all the things that this adventure game offers, whether it looks optional or not, and is unlikely to ever get stuck as a result. Doesn't it tell you to go here and get the instrument that is located around here?
Jonnas Posted October 8, 2019 Posted October 8, 2019 50 minutes ago, MindFreak said: Doesn't it tell you to go here and get the instrument that is located around here? For the first one, definitely. For the remaining ones, I don't recall them being so blatant. It's usually just a new area that opens up thanks to an item or an event flag.
Glen-i Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 15 hours ago, Jonnas said: For the first one, definitely. For the remaining ones, I don't recall them being so blatant. It's usually just a new area that opens up thanks to an item or an event flag. After collecting each instrument, there's a sequence where the game fades to white and you're given a hint of the area where the next instrument is. For example, one of them mentions a bay. Now of course, someone like me who has a creepy memory for games like this will go "OK, time for Martha's Bay, that's at the bottom and center of the map if I remember right. Better remember to carry on with the trading quest up until the Mermaid's Scale" Yes, I know. I'm sad. But what if you're playing for the first time and have never even been to Martha's Bay? Well, here's the clever bit. The library has a map that's completely filled in. If you went to check it out, you'd soon see where Martha's Bay is. This was the case even in the original GB version. So there was always some kind of navigation guide for those who needed it. As for the trading sequence and the path needed for the Wind Fish's Egg. It is a strange occurrence of the trading quest. Link's Awakening may have been the first Zelda to have one, but it's the only one where it's basically mandatory to complete the game. So it is very weird. But the Switch version has made attempts to make it more clear that the book with tiny text is important. I believe they changed Marin's opening dialogue to include a line where "the library is full of information" (It could be Tarin who says that) and upon entering that library, you'll quickly see that two books look different to the others. The Colour Dungeon cover being red was always the case, but if you went in there, saw that black book in the sea of identical green books and concluded "Well, that clearly means nothing" then I have to conclude that you're mostly to blame. Hell, the Switch version even added to that "This text is too small!" description to now include a segment explaining that you need a magnifying lens and you might be able to get one if you help lots of different people. (How Link knows that is beyond me) If a book entitled "Dark Secrets of Koholint" doesn't spark your curiosity, I can't help but question where your sense of wonder is. 1 1
MindFreak Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 58 minutes ago, Glen-i said: If a book entitled "Dark Secrets of Koholint" doesn't spark your curiosity, I can't help but question where your sense of wonder is. Well, I just went to the library, read the first book (top left, if I remember correctly), thought the books were just tutorials and tales and left again, never saw the black book. Or I could also have forgotten about it completely because 12-15 hours and several days passed from starting the game and getting to the point where I needed to find that books again. That's on me, I know. But I noticed the phone guy giving hints and I used that to progress as much as I could, never returning to the library. It's fair enough, I didn't know that the library held an important book that you needed to read in order to complete the very last puzzle, but I just gave up at that point and read a guide, the game was just frustrating me more than I wanted it to. I am sad that I didn't enjoy my playthrough as I had looked very much forward to the game, and I do love Zelda-games. The puzzles in them are mostly really good, I enjoyed the Shrines of BotW very much because of the quality of the puzzles (but I missed traditional temples in the game), so it made me sad when I found that especially the three or four last dungeons didn't have very interesting puzzles. I mostly recall them being "bomb the walls" or "move this block a little", along with "find the switches" and I found that both frustrating and boring.
Agent Gibbs Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 On 10/7/2019 at 7:19 AM, Glen-i said: Yeah, Eagle's Tower is my favourite Link's Awakening Dungeon. The complexity is welcome to me at that point. That said, the improved map screen in the Switch version was very welcome in planning my route. I used the pins to mark where the Red/Blue crystals were, as well as any parts that might have been blocked due to those. @Aneres11, for the 8th dungeon, I recommend using those pins to mark which staircases connect to each other. There's a lot of them and it can be easy to get lost there. Pins?........you can put pins on the map? :facepalm: why did i miss that
nekunando Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 My relationship with top-down Zelda games continues to be tested with Link's Awakening. While I own the GB version on 3DS, I've never played the game beyond a brief 5 minutes after downloading it several years ago. With that in mind, and the inviting visuals of the Switch remake, I anticipated that this game could well be my 'Game of the Year' given that, from a personal perspective at least, there's been little else for 2019 to make me feel genuine excitement. I'm in the middle of the 4th level right now so there's still a relatively long way to go but I haven't exactly been blown away so far. My unfortunate dislike of A Link to the Past meant there was always a little apprehension about Link's Awakening going in. Those fears seem to be being realised as I chip away at the game every night or two. I've already came across a few occasions where, despite some hints and rough directions, I've had to somewhat walk aimlessly around Koholint until I stumbled across a way forward. I'm not a fan of waypoints or of too much hand-holding but I also don't like wandering around feeling like I'm wasting time just waiting for that moment where I can finally find a way to continue. Don't get me wrong.. it's pretty good. Sadly, it just doesn't seem like it'll ever be as good as I want or maybe even need it to be. The framerate certainly isn't.. 1
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