pratty Posted June 25, 2016 Posted June 25, 2016 No probs mate, clearly i must have issues expressing myself because I wasn't trying to say living under the EU is the same under bloody colonialism.
Rummy Posted June 25, 2016 Posted June 25, 2016 The idiocy of people in this county... Boundless (if this is true) - this is not me being spiteful to the part of the population who feels they want 'control of their Britain' - it's just fucking stupid to vote against something you have no idea about and on its implications. Why aren't we asking ourselves how or why we let our society get to this in the first place? Whilst I can't deny I didn't think we should be given the power of the vote, I can't deny it was truly and fully democratic. Hearing people regretting it could be a reason to argue against that - but that's to suggest I'm more right in having a say in my country than one of these other people, and I'm not so sure about that. I'm currently(tho subject to change) with @kav82 on not wanting to pledge to a further referendum just because it didn't go the way I believe is right - because I am willing to accept I could both be wrong, but also that a majority spoke in a democracy. I'm not keen to say Brexit is inherently bad or wrong even though I believe it, I feel it is just mostly unknown. Back to your post though King_V - I'm glad it's making people think. Shame it may be a bit too little too late, but they ARE thinking now. As Cube says also - can we use it as a jumping off point to consider again moving forward to making other election processes more democratic, especially given the irony of some of the arguments made around exactly that and the EU? Of course, these are mostly rhetorical questions. I know the arguments coming both for and against them, and it will start to take us off topic getting into them.
Eenuh Posted June 25, 2016 Posted June 25, 2016 This referendum seems to have given some people the illusion that it's okay now to be openly racist and (verbally) attack foreigners living here. One of my Dutch friends posted this on Facebook today: A post-Brexit day at work today involved a number of customers giving me crap about how I am a foreigner stealing jobs that belong to British people. I am a student, responsible for my own tuition fees, and have a part time job to get me through uni. Before I went to uni I had a full time job in a call center, supporting Dutch, English, French AND German language speaking countries. I dare you to find a British person that could take my place there.
Nicktendo Posted June 25, 2016 Posted June 25, 2016 Newcastle city centre today [ATTACH]3847[/ATTACH]
Ashley Posted June 25, 2016 Posted June 25, 2016 This referendum seems to have given some people the illusion that it's okay now to be openly racist and (verbally) attack foreigners living here. One of my Dutch friends posted this on Facebook today: I do wonder what's best to happen here. I'm inclined to say report it but I'd completely understand any desire to just shrink away and hide because it must be tough. Employers should stand up, but who knows which side they agree with.
sumo73 Posted June 25, 2016 Posted June 25, 2016 Newcastle city centre today /I'm not reposting that image however/ Stupid idiots all four of them.
Esequiel Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 There is always going to be that idiotic minority no matter where we go. I have never had an issue with people coming to the UK who pay their own way and are here to learn/work. It's good for the country! I think the main issue with immigration has been that anyone who manages to get into the country can immediately start claiming benefits because of the EU laws about duty of care. If you get a family of 5 come to the UK with no jobs or money they can claim a council house because we have a duty of care to the kids, they get family tax credits and child benefit. They can claim upto I think £18,000 a year after arriving to the country. This was my main issue and hopefully it will change now. Time will tell.
ipaul Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 Newcastle city centre today To be fair they're just talking about sending back mackems who've moved here from Sunderland. Quite right too.
Blade Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/lib-dems-pledge-british-return-eu-next-general-election This is not surprising. The Lib Dems have traditionally been very pro-European and consistently call for further intergration. Are the Commons recalled tomorrow? I expect a heated discussion tomorrow. It will be interesting to see if the Commons vote to defy the referendum result. I expect not. What I do expect is that the UK will end up negotiating some half arsed trade deal which will then be put to the country in a referendum with a choice with remaining part of the EU or accepting the trade deal. If Art 50 is invoked there is no way going back, not without the consent of the other 27 member states anyway.
bob Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 Interesting stat I heard yesterday. Apparently, 4% of UKIP voters voted to remain.... You guys had one job!
Agent Gibbs Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 Interesting stat I heard yesterday. Apparently, 4% of UKIP voters voted to remain.... You guys had one job! so "I'm a member of the UK independence party not for leaving Europe but for their other policies............" well okay then
sumo73 Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) Interesting stat I heard yesterday. Apparently, 4% of UKIP voters voted to remain.... You guys had one job! I remember some interesting stats coming from the Scottish referendum in 2014 that people went against their parties wishes and voted the opposite way. Some SNP voters voting to stay in the UK and some Scottish Conservatives voting for independence. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/lib-dems-pledge-british-return-eu-next-general-election This is not surprising. The Lib Dems have traditionally been very pro-European and consistently call for further intergration. Are the Commons recalled tomorrow? I expect a heated discussion tomorrow. It will be interesting to see if the Commons vote to defy the referendum result. I expect not. What I do expect is that the UK will end up negotiating some half arsed trade deal which will then be put to the country in a referendum with a choice with remaining part of the EU or accepting the trade deal. If Art 50 is invoked there is no way going back, not without the consent of the other 27 member states anyway. Before the results came out ask yourself how popular were the Lib Dems? A party with just 8 MPs. I say this as now an ex long term Lib Dem voter. I'm sure the Lib Dems will see their member base increase now because of their new stance on getting back into the EU by invoking Article 49 and also their membership will increase because this online petition about getting a second referendum will almost certainly fail. If the Lib Dems just want to get back into exactly the same EU that we have now that would be a mistake. There needs reform. Regardless of the results of this vote the EU themselves need to ask why did this all happen? They need to do some soul searching themselves. As I see it the UK can decide when to start Article 50 and not when the EU pushes us to start. These discussions have to be in the best interests on not only the UK but the EU as well. There can be a win-win for both now rather than some upsetting and very public divorce. Edited June 26, 2016 by sumo73
Eddage Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 Found this rather humorous, the second referendum petition was started by a leave voter.
Ashley Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 Found this rather humorous, the second referendum petition was started by a leave voter. I'm surprised nobody (seemed to) realise that petitions run for six months and this one ends in November so it must have been started pre-result. Completely passed us all by! People are pointing out you don't have to be a UK national to sign it, and that is true but looking at the JSON data there's still 2,978,962 (site currently lists 3,173,885) UK signatories. Obviously those could be duplicates though and we're assuming everyone that is voting from abroad isn't an expat (or just simply on holiday). But as I said before, I don't think it's going to amount to anything. Just kind of interesting to watch it play out and see if its addressed.
Ashley Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 Yeah I think that's the thing. It's not like suddenly on Friday half the country woke up racist, but rather the racists are now feeling vindicated and like they can say whatever the fuck they want. I've actually just written to my MP after seeing Jess Phillips (Birmingham) intends to raise it asking for her to support Jess and pointed her in the direction of the Twitter account/hashtag postrefracism and this depressing as fuck album: https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3&pnref=story I can't believe in 2016 I'm writing to my MP to express my concerns about racism on such a scale (or such openness I guess is the better way to put it).
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 Why aren't we asking ourselves how or why we let our society get to this in the first place? Like @Choze says the issues we face are global, but I would expect generally better from an old superpower that had a multinational empire. I feel we have very big issues with our education system and classism. People are becoming ignorant and falling for that old timeless trick of blaiming immigrants as the root of the problems in their country. I think people have been greatly mis-sold to in thinking that with less immigrants there will be more opportunities for British people - For example, when I was studying for a degree the government could only fund me for 4 years (standard degree length), whereas in Norway the government funds their citizens for 8 years (degree and masters) even while overseas. In that scenario, the foreigner with the Masters will most likely still be the skilled employee of choice for the job. The average Brit from a poor family background is less likely to have progressed towards Masters level without government backing. I know for certain having less immigrants was the rhetoric that pushed a lot of people to vote leave and it does paint a picture of us being a less than tolerant society - and again its deeper than four skinheads with a banner on the high street - People are being sold lies (again) and regressing socially.
bob Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 I put some of the blame on The Sun and The Daily Mail, who were allowed to post lies and propaganda purely to sell more copies and make profit.
Ashley Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 I put some of the blame on The Sun and The Daily Mail, who were allowed to post lies and propaganda purely to sell more copies and make profit. And that's from this year alone. Which has resulted in stuff like this: [tweet]746705379136921601[/tweet] Which would be funny if it wasn't so fucking tragic.
Serebii Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 We need a common extra-terrestrial enemy so that we can all unite together as the human race because this bullshit is ridiculous. We're all human. Doesn't matter where you're from or how much melanin you have, we're all the same deep down and should unite based on what's the same, not what is different.
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 We need a common extra-terrestrial enemy so that we can all unite together as the human race because this bullshit is ridiculous. We're all human. Doesn't matter where you're from or how much melanin you have, we're all the same deep down and should unite based on what's the same, not what is different. Even if that happened I have little faith that humans won't find other reasons to discriminate amongst themselves. Someone said here they don't believe anyone isn't a little bit racist... That's the sort of mentality that condones racism as a fact of life - which I can never agree it is. Racism is largely the result of fear, fears I feel stem from cowardice and the inability to want to confront these fears - choosing instead to opt into the easier choice of a 'us against them' mentality.
arab_freak Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 As someone who's developed a deep interest in this issue all of a sudden I have two questions: 1.Has anyone on this forum who is also a minority faced any discrimination before and/or after the vote? I'll admit I haven't read the entire thread though--just the previous page. But I'd love to know any details. 2. What do you make of this:
Pestneb Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 1. Define a minority.... regardless if you mean being discriminated due to your heritage, sure, on one occasion, I think about 4 years ago. 2. I agree, I didn't dwell on it that much, but I was discussing it with someone just yesterday, about Boris becoming PM, I think it's a bad place for him, the next pm has a super challenging position to hold. And yes, Boris clearly had ambitions for the leadership role, now his carefully planned path is perilous. The one hope I see for them is that meaningful reforms take place (a few leaders in the EU have alluded to that) in which case they may be able to to do a new referendum 1. invoke article 50 or 2. continue working towards a reformed EU. They have heard the majority have no interest in the EU as it was - but they've changed now... so do we want to pack it all in, or do we want to work with our partners to iron out these issues... I know for myself I did hesitate, my pencil hovered over both boxes, if a third had been present (reformed EU) I wouldn't have hesitated. Problem is that the reformed EU option wasn't there, because the top dogs in the EU said there was no further reform available. Anyway... I hope that is the outcome, that the EU is able to make a move to address the most addressable issues so that we can make a considered decision. As the referendum stands, what did leave mean? remain meant something, but the possibilities were too broad for leave. I think it would be fair to have another referendum setting out options to decide what exactly leave means...
Blade Posted June 27, 2016 Posted June 27, 2016 Article 50 will not be triggered. It doesn't make sense to do so when it is now clear there is no Brexit plan. The Government was reckless for not devising a plan that will pull us out of the EU in the event of a Leave vote. If Art 50 is invoked now then the UK will be taken outside of the EU in two years with the EU having all the cards. The Leave case that was portrayed to the media namely the £350m claim and immigration is tearing apart. In fact it was never true. The fact is that the UK is unlikely to obtain a favourable trade deal from the EU without accepting free movement of peoples. What I think is likely to happen is that a General Election will be called with parties campaigning on the issue of whether Art 50 should be invoked.
EEVILMURRAY Posted June 27, 2016 Posted June 27, 2016 The other countries that are feeling a referendum need to get their skates on to show that they mean business
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