Charlie Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 "Should Scotland be an independent country?" This is the question that all residents of Scotland will be asked on 18th September 2014. In a big blow to the Yes party the UK Government and major parties are due to announce today that there will be no currency union should Scotland vote to be independent. Nicola Sturgeon has called this "bullying" and that if they say this Scotland will not take their share of the debt should they become fully independent. The SNP currently have not shared what their plan B is if they can't get the Pound. Residents of Scotland, rUK and the world, what are your thoughts on both the issue above and the rest of the debate?
DuD Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 I'm English currently living in Scotland and to quote one of my Scottish mates.. "Those that think independence is a good idea are the types that go home and watch Braveheart every night." My personal opinion is that Mr Salmon is intent on creating a Legacy for himself and is either blinkered or does not care as to what consequences could arise from the split. I think that Currently Scotland should not become independent. FREEEEEEEEDOMMM
MoogleViper Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 I can absolutely understand the frustration that people in Scotland (and elsewhere) feel with the UK government. However I do wish they'd recognise the distinction between England and Westminster. If you don't live around London, then Westminster is just as disconnected from your area as it is from Scotland/Wales. At least you have your own parliament/assembly, the North of England doesn't. That asside, I still think Scottish independence would be disastrous for Scotland, and a blow for the rest of the UK. Personally I would like to see more of a decentralisation (or de-metrocentalisation) of government. However there's not a referendum for that. Question: Should the rest of the UK get to vote on Scottish independence? If Scotland get to vote on whether they can leave, that affects people in the rest of the UK, so should we get a say as well? Scottish people get to vote on what happens in Westminster. I get no say on what happens in Edinburgh. Obviously if you did let the rest vote, I don't think it would be fair to do it by population. Scotland only have ~5% of the votes just wouldn't make sense.
Charlie Posted February 13, 2014 Author Posted February 13, 2014 Question: Should the rest of the UK get to vote on Scottish independence? If Scotland get to vote on whether they can leave, that affects people in the rest of the UK, so should we get a say as well? Scottish people get to vote on what happens in Westminster. I get no say on what happens in Edinburgh. This is actually a big problem. Scots who live down south or abroad will have to change their passports if Scotland become independent but they will get no say on the matter themselves. Yet a student who is in the country for Uni for the year will get to vote on the matter. It should be noted that this does not affect military personnel who are posted abroad.
Cube Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Can someone give me a quick run-down on some aspects of this, and how thing would go if Scotland did become independent: Currency: Would they still be able to use the Pound or would they have to use the Euro? Speaking of the Euro, would they have to apply and wait to be accepted? What currency would they have to use in that period? Public Services: Police, fire service and the NHS. Would the Scottish government need to "purchase" all this stuff form the UK, would they demand for it to be included with their independence or would they need to set it up (presumably using the same buildings and staff, but they'd need to sort out head offices and communication between everything. Royal Mail: Royal Mail love increasing prices. Scotland becoming its own country would be the perfect excuse to either create a new post format for Scotland, or go all the way and say that you need to send via "Airmail". Tourism: Would everyone in the UK who wants to go on holiday to Scotland need a passport (or vice-versa)? On a similar subject, I really don't know how this stuff works in other countries (I've never really looked into land borders), but would we have to go through border checkpoints to go there? From what I can tell, there seems to be a lot of "ifs" and possible solutions to some problems here and there, but there seems to be no detailed plan detailing everything that Scotland would need to sort out. This plan needs to exist and needs to be made public before any kind of vote should happen. You can't make decisions like this based on unclear and conflicting information. Edited February 13, 2014 by Cube
Charlie Posted February 13, 2014 Author Posted February 13, 2014 Currency: Would they still be able to use the Pound or would they have to use the Euro? Speaking of the Euro, would they have to apply and wait to be accepted? What currency would they have to use in that period? Public Services: Police, fire service and the NHS. Would the Scottish government need to "purchase" all this stuff form the UK, would they demand for it to be included with their independence or would they need to set it up (presumably using the same buildings and staff, but they'd need to sort out head offices and communication between everything. Royal Mail: Royal Mail love increasing prices. Scotland becoming its own country would be the perfect excuse to either create a new post format for Scotland, or go all the way and say that you need to send via "Airmail". Tourism: Would everyone in the UK who wants to go on holiday to Scotland need a passport (or vice-versa)? On a similar subject, I really don't know how this stuff works in other countries (I've never really looked into land borders), but would we have to go through border checkpoints to go there? From what I can tell, there seems to be a lot of "ifs" and possible solutions to some problems here and there, but there seems to be no detailed plan detailing everything that Scotland would need to sort out. This plan needs to exist and needs to be made public before any kind of vote should happen. You can't make decisions like this based on unclear and conflicting information. Currency: The UK Government announced today that an independent Scotland would not be able to use the pound. The SNP have failed to outline a plan B for this event. In all likelihood it would be the Euro. Public Services: Scotland already has it's own public services; police force, fire. We control our own NHS budget and this would be kept. Royal Mail: The SNP want to renationalise the Royal Mail if Scotland become independent. Tourism: I believe that you would be able to travel freely from Scotland to England and vice-versa with no passport checks or controls on the border. Scottish citizens would be issued with a new passport but I think can keep their existing UK passport. Scotland will remain part of the Common Travel Area. The SNP released their blue print for independence which covered the vast majority of the issues back in November. I think the major point right now is that is the currency issue as there is no Plan B. Nicola Sturgeon keeps claiming that the UK are 'bullying' Scotland and that if Scotland can't keep the pound then they will refuse to take on their share of the debt. This is a terrible idea as our borrowing rates will go through the roof if we refuse to pay back existing debts.
EEVILMURRAY Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Currency: The UK Government announced today that an independent Scotland would not be able to use the pound. The SNP have failed to outline a plan B for this event. In all likelihood it would be the Euro. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say they would not be able to use the "British Pound"? they could have their own Pound currency like Egypt, Sudan, Lebanon etc. but it would be mighty confusing should a weird exchange rate occur so close to another Pound currency nation.
MoogleViper Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 A point on the EU/Euro. Salmond has stated that Scotland will become part of the Euro; however current legislation doesn't allow that. If they went independent then they would have to apply, and member states would have to vote. All of that takes time.
Charlie Posted February 13, 2014 Author Posted February 13, 2014 Wouldn't it be more accurate to say they would not be able to use the "British Pound"? they could have their own Pound currency like Egypt, Sudan, Lebanon etc. but it would be mighty confusing should a weird exchange rate occur so close to another Pound currency nation. Yes, it would be more accurate but for the sake of my argument I don't think anyone thought I was referring to anything other than the British Pound. A point on the EU/Euro. Salmond has stated that Scotland will become part of the Euro; however current legislation doesn't allow that. If they went independent then they would have to apply, and member states would have to vote. All of that takes time. Do you mean that Scotland would become part of the EU? Salmond has stated that he thinks Scotland would automatically become part of the EU if Scotland left the Union. Last month he also said that after the referendum the country would start negotiating to remain a part of the EU. He went onto say that there is no prospect of an independent Scotland becoming a member of the Euro (currency). This is all up in the air as senior people within the EU have said that Scotland would have to reapply for the EU as a new country which means that they would have to adopt the Euro.
Pestneb Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 "Should Scotland be an independent country?" This is the question that all residents of Scotland will be asked on 18th September 2014. In a big blow to the Yes party the UK Government and major parties are due to announce today that there will be no currency union should Scotland vote to be independent. Nicola Sturgeon has called this "bullying" and that if they say this Scotland will not take their share of the debt should they become fully independent. The SNP currently have not shared what their plan B is if they can't get the Pound. Residents of Scotland, rUK and the world, what are your thoughts on both the issue above and the rest of the debate? If Scotland is 100% independent from the UK, then they will have complete control on a number of factors that will have an effect on the value of the pound. Essentially they could cause significant damage to the UK. Far simpler for the UK to withhold the currency, and scotland to create their own from scratch, or, if they choose to stay in the EU, adopt the euro. Of course the yes vote are well aware that adopting the euro they will become a small voice (The EU's population being somewhat larger than the UK's) and will increasingly lose the very control they are aiming to gain. Therefore it is them who are the party trying to bully the UK, by stating they won't pay their debts. That's fine. Great way to show they are a mature, stable and reliable state, certainly one worth lending money to at a reasonable interest rate. As for the UK, I think it is preferable, if Scotland do vote for independence, that we take on Scottish debt (a known quantity) then open ourselves up to potential disaster due to conflicting policies Scotland are likely to adopt. I am aware the euro zone is far more complex than the situation between the UK and Scotland, but I still think it is a good example of how independent states pulling/pushing in different directions can have a negative effect on each other when they are tied by a single currency. The Euro crisis actually is prompting moves to unify policies, so if seems ludicrous that Scotland seem to think it is sensible to reduce unification with the UK yet retain our currency? Or perhaps it's actually an elaborate plan to regain their Royal family and move the UK's government up to Scotland? Yes, it would be more accurate but for the sake of my argument I don't think anyone thought I was referring to anything other than the British Pound. Do you mean that Scotland would become part of the EU? Salmond has stated that he thinks Scotland would automatically become part of the EU if Scotland left the Union.Last mont he also said that after the referendum the country would start negotiating to remain a part of the EU. He went onto say that there is no prospect of an independent Scotland becoming a member of the Euro (currency). This is all up in the air as senior people within the EU have said that Scotland would have to reapply for the EU as a new country which means that they would have to adopt the Euro. An independent Scotland would need to be part of the EU. They COULD be automatically accepted. But I believe the only way that could be negotiated would be if he adopted the Euro. If he declines that, the EU will tell him he needs to reapply. The EU are big on the Euro, because it's a big step towards the United states of Europe. There is no way they would pass up on the chance to get a new member state to adopt it. The only shot independent Scotland had, really, was the pound. Now, having to adopt a new currency, it will be good as impossible to argue to remain in the EU AND decline the Euro.
gaggle64 Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 As an Englishman who used to live in Scotland I think it should. I think it could do very well as a small European nation and I think the Yes campaign has been able to deliver a cogent long term strategy while the No campaign has barely been coherent. All Scotland's got to look forward to with further Union is increased isolation and ignorance from Westminster politics without even further autonomy to look forward to.
MoogleViper Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Do you mean that Scotland would become part of the EU? Salmond has stated that he thinks Scotland would automatically become part of the EU if Scotland left the Union. Last month he also said that after the referendum the country would start negotiating to remain a part of the EU. He went onto say that there is no prospect of an independent Scotland becoming a member of the Euro (currency). This is all up in the air as senior people within the EU have said that Scotland would have to reapply for the EU as a new country which means that they would have to adopt the Euro. Yes, sorry, I meant EU. Salmond keeps claiming that Scotland will become part of it, but there's no precedent for that, they would have to reapply, and other member states would have to vote on them joining.
yesteryeargames Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Would we loose sporting talent ? For team gb?
Agent Gibbs Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 No its an absolutely terrible idea put forward by Salmond and his ilk, out of a purely racial/nationalist bias! Westminsters is Scotland AND Wales,Northern Ireland and England's problem, If Salmond's perspective expanded beyond the scottish border he'd see that, and if he was forward thinking enough he'd reform his party into a UK wide one, as despite my belief its all down to his own personal feelings towards the English, he is still doing a better job at listening to his people than all three UK parties combined Has he commented on BP's comments that they may also pull out of Scottland if it becomes independant, given his reliance on Oil as an income source for an independant Scotland? And Moogle is right on the EU, he keeps saying they'll get in, but the EU has not confirmed this and there is no precedent for it. Tl: DR the UK is better as a whole, politicians in London are the whole UK's problem, not just Scottlands, we'd be better with a united front against mad politicians than fracturing off into our own internal sestpools
Jonnas Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 I don't know much about Scotland, but Spain is going through something similar as well (with Cataluña, a.k.a. the region with Barcelona). EU representatives have already said Cataluña would not be part of the EU right away, should it happen. They would have to apply, shortly after independence. However, seeing as non-EU countries can use the Euro under certain circumstances (Montengro springs to mind. Also Croatia a while back), I suppose keeping the Euro as the currency would be more than feasible for Cataluña. For Scotland, using the Euro shouldn't be hard, either (the EU would probably thank them for finally adopting it ), but they could also create a Scottish Pound. However, it would require them printing a lot of new money, and I think it would hurt their EU application. Being next to the UK wouldn't be confusing, though. Francophone countries have been using different Francs for decades before the Euro. Anyway, just my 2 eurocents on the subject. I have very little to give regarding UK-only matters, though.
Jon Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Alex Salmond isn't fit to run a chip shop, let alone a country. The Yes campaign has been a joke from the start, whenever a serious question is asked, it's rarely answered, they simply decide to point fingers at the current setup to divert attention from themselves.
Charlie Posted February 13, 2014 Author Posted February 13, 2014 Alex Salmond isn't fit to run a chip shop, let alone a country. The Yes campaign has been a joke from the start, whenever a serious question is asked, it's rarely answered, they simply decide to point fingers at the current setup to divert attention from themselves. I'm loving their new stance of whenever something doesn't go their way they claim Scotland is being bullied.
Blade Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 No. Im a unionist and do not wish to see Scotland go. I also believe in devloution and do think that Scotland would benefit with their parliament to have an increase in powers and responsibility. Seeing that this is a potential significant constitutional change I would have preferred to see a UK wide referendum. I feel disconnected with Westminster. Northern England is often forgotten about. Also could northern England join Scotland if independance does happen? Without Scotland's seats I dread to think what a permanent Tory UK would be like. Re EU I believe that an independent Scotland would have to apply for membership and it is currently mandatory for new members to adopt the Euro. Scotland could of course try and negotiate an opt out. The UK would not as that would be termed as the "successor state" and would retain its international obligatons. I am also hating the term "independence". Independence from what? Scotland forms part of Great Britain which is a country. You can't have independence from your own country! Breaking away from Britain would be more appropriate I think. This is not a colonial matter.
Ramar Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Would we loose sporting talent ? For team gb? We'd lose the Caber tossers, apart from that we'll be fine.
jayseven Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 I wouldn't be against it if it were to happen. As pestneb said, the situation with the pound is quite obvious - and I've been rolling my eyes and facepalming at the MPs up in scotland who have claimed that this is the government "bullying" scotland into staying in. It just makes them sound like spoilt children.
Rummy Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 I'm not educated enough on the whole issue to really make a choice and give an answer to this question so I'll give what I feel right now: I don't feel as if it's my place to say. If the people of Scotland want it, then so be it. I'm not Scottish and feel that they should be allowed their rights to a voice and decision on independent government - yes there'll probably be implications for the rest of the 'U'K but I don't think that overrides the importance of the wishes of people who live there(even if the decisions and information of those voting are as poor as my own). To answer Moogle's question - should the UK have a say? Hmm. Maybe, maybe not. If we did, I'd abstain from that vote personally, unless there was some clear 'lol don't care!' option - would be interesting to see the results of such though.
Iun Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 I'm loving their new stance of whenever something doesn't go their way they claim Scotland is being bullied. This is a technique that I hear from China the whole time -it's a psychological trick used to put people on the defensive. The person using it well-knows that intelligent people will automatically begin to question their own beliefs, which will cause them to backtrack and force them into a weaker position in the power dynamic of the debate/conversation. The most effective way of countering it is to ignore it. Or make it into a complete joke, thereby rendering it useless as a future rhetorical tool. Another way is to turn it around: Something like this: "If you think I'm capable of bullying Scotland, the country so masculine that they invented a skirt for men, then you hold Scottish people in low esteem" On the note of this debate: It's up to the people of the nation. Let them do as tbhey please but they should be responsible for taking their share of the debt, as there has been benefit from it. It would set a poor precedent otherwise.
Mokong Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Would we loose sporting talent ? For team gb? If Scotland did go independant they would form their own team for any sports that are under the "Team GB" banner, so any Olympic events and any other sports where ye compete as GB. But I'd say what would happen is similar to athletes from Northern Ireland is each Athlete would be allowed to choose which they want to represent. So long as they still hold a British Passport (and my undertstanding is anyone with one would be allowed to keep it and get a new Scottish passport if there was a yes vote) they will be allowed they choice, so it is all up to the athletes preference but nobody would be forced to represent Scotland over GB if they wanted to stay on Team GB. How this effects sporting set ups is all I'm interested in haha. And I think it would be kinda cool to see a Team Scotland at Rio 2016 Oh and what would happen to the Union Jack if Scotland voted yes? Would they have to change it and remove the blue bits that represent scotland?
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