Serebii Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 But surely there has to be a balance? When that existing franchise becomes overused and stale, what next? New IPs are an investment. Of course there is a balance. As shown before, Nintendo have done numerous new IPs. How easy could Pullblox have been a new Mario puzzle game. They just went the other route. However, that doesn't mean that all new ideas should be new IPs.
Sheikah Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 I think they chuck all their money and people at their sequels though. If you look at most of their new IP, most of it ain't Xenoblades. Pullblox? Ca'maan. Let's see a new character with a new kind of awesome game.
Grazza Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 This place has become a bit of a parody lately how everything turns back to the same conversations... it's like an even shitter version of waiting for godot!! But waiting for game-o!! LMAO! Brilliant.
Daft Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 In anticipation of a rebuttal, here's the new IPs since 2006. These are financed by Nintendo, and often co-developed Endless Ocean Captain Rainbow Disaster: Day of Crisis FlingSmash Zangeki no Reginleiv Xenoblade Chronicles The Last Story Kiki Trick Pandora's Tower Maboshi's Arcade Eco Shooter: Plant 530 Fluidity Line Attack Heroes Sing Party The Wonderful 101 Art Academy Hotel Dusk Master of Illusion Fossil Fighters Style Savvy Nintendo presents: Style Boutique Tomodachi Collection Steel Diver Freakyforms Sakura Samurai: Art of the Sword Dillon's Rolling Western Pullblox Ketzal's Corridors HarmoKnight Kersploosh Tokyo Crash Mobs Rusty's Real Deal Baseball Nintendo Pocket Football Club Among countless other spin-off series of existing IPs. I think I must have missed a dozen or so, too. Yes, some may be download only, but why does that matter? Plus, like I said, some were successful while others not so much. The overwhelming majority of these games are incredibly Japanese. There's no cultural variety. Personally, that might be my other big issue with Nintendo - the other one being the Mario/Zelda/Pokemon IP fatigue - they're very ethnocentric and for a global industry that's really not acceptable. Also, 'Nintendo presents: Style Boutique' is hilarious icantbelievethatactuallyexists.
Jonnas Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 While I can't fault the effort you've put into sourcing that, it makes me very sad that if you were to do a similar thing over the Cube or N64 periods, the list would be perhaps a million times more appetising. Even before Serebii brought up that list, I knew this argument would fall flat, mainly because the N64 is perhaps the console that benefits the most from rose-tinted nostalgia glasses. Its library really was that small. And handheld-wise, Pokémon was the only thing coming out on the Gameboy. The Gamecube? Sure, you can see three or four Top 10 lists that look pretty differently. Meanwhile, any N64 Top 10 will usually feature the same games in different orders. Upon retrospect, the N64 wasn't that different from the Wii U so far. Main difference is, Nintendo Land and Wonderful 101 didn't get as popular as Mario64&OoT. Quality games on quality home consoles that has been marketed well enough to make it hotly sought after. I've just named three key areas above that will help them do that: Quality software, quality hardware and intelligent marketing... Get back to basics. Nintendo still has plenty of reputation. Remember when Skyward Sword came out, people kept comparing it to Skyrim and other major releases, despite the fact that SS wasn't anything mindblowing? Remember when Mario 3D got notoriety when it was released because it was that damn good, despite the media effort to downplay its existence? Nintendo has both incredible games that gain notoriety on merit, as well as overrated releases. Main problem is, most people only look at major releases, which is pretty sad. And thus, truly amazing, new, games like Elite Beat Agents fell into obscurity despite their quality. Gotta agree that their marketing department needs a major revamp, though. I think they chuck all their money and people at their sequels though. If you look at most of their new IP, most of it ain't Xenoblades. Pullblox? Ca'maan. Let's see a new character with a new kind of awesome game. If you don't like such games, it's your loss Mole Mania and Donkey Kong '94 were some of my favourites back in the late 90s, and an IP like Pullblox (it does have a main character) is very much in the same vein as those. Not every genre is going to be a blockbuster (except for Tetris *ba-dum-tsh*), even if I'd love to see franchises like Elite Beat Agents, or Rock of Ages, or Recettear get more popular. But don't go dissin' perfectly acceptable games, now. That's racist. You're right about Nintendo chucking money at sequels. Every company does that. That's why Uncharted 3 exists. There's something to be said about that, really, other companies milk their franchises until they get dry and tired, while Nintendo keeps those franchises alive and relevant across several years, despite all the criticism they get about "tired old franchises". I think we could get a new thread out of this topic, I should ponder on this.
Sheikah Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) Even before Serebii brought up that list, I knew this argument would fall flat, mainly because the N64 is perhaps the console that benefits the most from rose-tinted nostalgia glasses. Its library really was that small. And handheld-wise, Pokémon was the only thing coming out on the Gameboy. The Gamecube? Sure, you can see three or four Top 10 lists that look pretty differently. Meanwhile, any N64 Top 10 will usually feature the same games in different orders. Upon retrospect, the N64 wasn't that different from the Wii U so far. Main difference is, Nintendo Land and Wonderful 101 didn't get as popular as Mario64&OoT. Nintendo still has plenty of reputation. Remember when Skyward Sword came out, people kept comparing it to Skyrim and other major releases, despite the fact that SS wasn't anything mindblowing? Remember when Mario 3D got notoriety when it was released because it was that damn good, despite the media effort to downplay its existence? Nintendo has both incredible games that gain notoriety on merit, as well as overrated releases. Main problem is, most people only look at major releases, which is pretty sad. And thus, truly amazing, new, games like Elite Beat Agents fell into obscurity despite their quality. Gotta agree that their marketing department needs a major revamp, though. If you don't like such games, it's your loss Mole Mania and Donkey Kong '94 were some of my favourites back in the late 90s, and an IP like Pullblox (it does have a main character) is very much in the same vein as those. Not every genre is going to be a blockbuster (except for Tetris *ba-dum-tsh*), even if I'd love to see franchises like Elite Beat Agents, or Rock of Ages, or Recettear get more popular. But don't go dissin' perfectly acceptable games, now. That's racist. You're right about Nintendo chucking money at sequels. Every company does that. That's why Uncharted 3 exists. There's something to be said about that, really, other companies milk their franchises until they get dry and tired, while Nintendo keeps those franchises alive and relevant across several years, despite all the criticism they get about "tired old franchises". I think we could get a new thread out of this topic, I should ponder on this. I don't think the N64 library was that small at all; Serebii's list focuses on a very niche set of rules (Nintendo not even making the games or even doing much at all counting for the most recent list). I also meant in my post 'any IP' (not just Nintendo). Finally, I think it's not just numbers but also quality. Pokemon, Zelda OoT (I am counting this on account of how much new it did), Smash and Banjo Kazooie. Hell yeah. You can't deny how amazing they were back then given how quite a few of these games form the basis of the many conserved sequels which have now come our way. Also while not every game will be a blockbuster, often the ones that have considerable talent/funds behind them have a chance of being truly special. Xenoblade and Mario Galaxy didn't happen by chance, they had such incredible backing. What I meant was, I'd like to see more of that might thrown at new characters/games (like Xenoblade), even by Nintendo themself. And by that, yeah, I mean not Pullblox. People do indeed pay more attention to sequels but that's understandable, really. They know it's a sequel to a game they enjoyed, whereas an unknown game may not be amazing (realistically, most games aren't). But developers play to this in order for a safe income. Ultimately they've got go risk it for a biscuit. Carry on channelling most of your funds and talent into sequels for safe profit, or try make some amazing new games that may fail or may breathe much needed life into the brand. Edited March 18, 2014 by Sheikah
Jonnas Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 The overwhelming majority of these games are incredibly Japanese. There's no cultural variety. Personally, that might be my other big issue with Nintendo - the other one being the Mario/Zelda/Pokemon IP fatigue - they're very ethnocentric and for a global industry that's really not acceptable. Also, 'Nintendo presents: Style Boutique' is hilarious icantbelievethatactuallyexists. Gotta love you accusing them of being ethnocentric while making fun of one of their more European-sounding titles ("Style Boutique" sounds like the sort of thing Ubisoft would come up with) On a more serious note, I think Mario, Zelda and Pokémon are as Japanese as Lion King and Finding Nemo are American, that is, not that much. I think the problems that arise from this ethnocentricity are few and far between, like their strong push on things like Streetpass. Or Microsoft's mega-push on Netflix. I don't think the N64 library was that small at all; Serebii's list focuses on a very niche set of rules (Nintendo not even making the games or even doing much at all counting for the most recent list). I also meant in my post 'any IP' (not just Nintendo). Finally, I think it's not just numbers but also quality. Pokemon, Zelda OoT (I am counting this on account of how much new it did), Smash and Banjo Kazooie. Hell yeah. The niche set of rules was going to make a small list smaller, is my point. It's still a small number. (Also, Pokémon in the N64 list? It wasn't that good. Unless you meant the GB games)
Daft Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Gotta love you accusing them of being ethnocentric while making fun of one of their more European-sounding titles ("Style Boutique" sounds like the sort of thing Ubisoft would come up with) On a more serious note, I think Mario, Zelda and Pokémon are as Japanese as Lion King and Finding Nemo are American, that is, not that much. I think the problems that arise from this ethnocentricity are few and far between, like their strong push on things like Streetpass. Or Microsoft's mega-push on Netflix. But Lion King and Finding Nemo are incredibly American (both their narrative and art style). How on earth is Pokemon not that Japanese? Even if you could somehow argue that they superficially aren't that Japanese, their gameplay and structure is definitely much more in line with the Japanese games industry. Anyway, I said the overwhelming majority (at the very least their tent pole games are) and yeah, I was trying to put my finger on it and that game does sound like a crappy UbiSoft game. I don't really think the Netflix example really works since I'm talking about games. On the 360 Microsoft had some pretty solid attempts at creating games beyond their region; Blue Dragon, the got FFXIII and made allowances for FFXI to work on their console. Lost Odyssey was meant to be pretty good, too. Even EDF 2017, another brilliant Japanese game only came out on 360.
Clownferret Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Oh god, what have I done. I just wanted to figure out whether I could justify getting a Wii U... Mario Kart League, need I say more.
Ashley Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I don't think Style Boutique is too un-Japanese, considering how popular fashion is over there. The name is a bit Ubisoftian though.
Cube Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 That big list is actually why I'd rather Nintendo stick to sequels - I don't care about a single one of those. Sure, they are some decent games, and some good JRPGs (a genre I don't like), but they don't really appeal to me at all. Nintendo have some franchises that, while Japanese, do suit the western market really well: Metroid, Star Fox and F-Zero. New takes on these would be great (if WipeOut can be hugely popular, why can't F-Zero?), or even letting Retro Studios make a new IP on their own - they're the only western development team that Nintendo own (which is really bad).
Zechs Merquise Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 So essentially we have reached a situation where people complain over a lack of new IPs from Nintendo. They release Xenoblade, one of the very best games of the last generation, but people ignore it. So they release sequels they know will sell, and then people complain that there isn't a new IP. It's a tired and circular argument where again, Nintendo are damned if they do and damned if they don't. People who own a Wii and complain about a lack of new IPs and a lack of 'hardcore' games really do lose credibility though if they haven't purchased the likes of Xenoblade and The Last Story as they are incredible games. What's more with Xenoblade it is a game that is beautiful and presents a very unique universe that is full of colour, life and a vibrant fully developed ecosystem. People talk about great new IPs like The Last of Us, but seriously how derivative is that game? A third person shooter with a gruff male protagonist set in a post apocalyptic Western setting and the enemies are zombies/mutants created by a plague. The graphics are great, but the colour palette and visual style is nothing to write home about. Xenoblade is far more inventive than that, but it is ignored by gamers who turn their noses up at it because it's different! State of the industry.
RedShell Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 The name is a bit Ubisoftian though.But that's not the case for the quality of the game, is it?
Cube Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) So essentially we have reached a situation where people complain over a lack of new IPs from Nintendo. They release Xenoblade, one of the very best games of the last generation, but people ignore it. Oddly, if people find JRPGs boring, then they don't pay much attention to games that look like another generic JRPG. If you don't pay much attention to the game, you miss what makes it different. It's like talking about The Last of Us and failing to mention Ellie from either a gamepalay, story or emotional standpoint. Edited March 18, 2014 by Cube
Rummy Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 So essentially we have reached a situation where people complain over a lack of new IPs from Nintendo. They release Xenoblade, one of the very best games of the last generation, but people ignore it. Who, exactly, are these people? I've seen many people here, myself included, laud and praise Xenoblade. I'd hazard a guess that for most Wii U owners here on the forum, X is one of the more universally anticipated games. No doubt it was a heavy sell for me on the system, as well as others. That right there is the power of a new IP. Had it been FF or something would I have cared as much? Possibly, but I've never been big on FF and that might have hurt it for me(as well as the game itself). Of course - I know it's very different to FF; my JRPG knowledge is limited and it's difficult to find a comparison. In fact, Xenoblade was unlike anything else I've ever played. I've said it before and would again - I'd haved called it the game of the generation, but in all reality it felt like it was almost heralding from the generation before. In that sense, as great as I think Xenoblade is - I think it's equally derivative but just done in all the best ways.
Sheikah Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) The niche set of rules was going to make a small list smaller, is my point. It's still a small number. Eh, I'd say that his criteria artificially padded the latter list while probably doing nothing at all for the earlier list. So essentially we have reached a situation where people complain over a lack of new IPs from Nintendo. They release Xenoblade, one of the very best games of the last generation, but people ignore it. Who has ignored it? Who has worn the My Little Pony T-shirt? It's as if you're inventing people in order to have an argument. Xenoblade is without doubt a fine game, easily one of the best of the last generation. But it was one game; they needed more of that calibre, really. Last Story and Pandora's Tower were probably their best runner up IP, but they weren't even close to awesome. Xenoblade and Mario Galaxy are the two 'new and awesome' games of the Wii for me, which is really not enough when I look at past/other consoles. And of those, technically only one was actually made by Nintendo. The majority of Monolith's staff actually derive from Squaresoft. Edited March 18, 2014 by Sheikah
Daft Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 People talk about great new IPs like The Last of Us, but seriously how derivative is that game? A third person shooter with a gruff male protagonist set in a post apocalyptic Western setting and the enemies are zombies/mutants created by a plague. The graphics are great, but the colour palette and visual style is nothing to write home about. Xenoblade is far more inventive than that, but it is ignored by gamers who turn their noses up at it because it's different! State of the industry. As opposed to Xenoblade which has a typically androgynous character with an overly large sword running round a typical Japanese 'high-fantasy' world taking large numbers of health off wild monsters? ...Yeah, everything is a derivative if you want it to be.
Dcubed Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Eh, I'd say that his criteria artificially padded the latter list while probably doing nothing at all for the earlier list. Who has ignored it? Who has worn the My Little Pony T-shirt? It's as if you're inventing people in order to have an argument. Xenoblade is without doubt a fine game, easily one of the best of the last generation. But it was one game; they needed more of that calibre, really. Last Story and Pandora's Tower were probably their best runner up IP, but they weren't even close to awesome. Xenoblade and Mario Galaxy are the two 'new and awesome' games of the Wii for me, which is really not enough when I look at past/other consoles. And of those, technically only one was actually made by Nintendo. The majority of Monolith's staff actually derive from Squaresoft. And yet, Monolith Soft is a 100% owned 1st party studio. Just like Retro Studios or Intelligent Systems... All new staff have to come from somewhere. People aren't just born as a Nintendo developer you know!
Sheikah Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) And yet, Monolith Soft is a 100% owned 1st party studio. Just like Retro Studios or Intelligent Systems... I know that they bought them. But Nintendo themselves didn't make it. Which was the point I was getting at - Nintendo themselves made some awesome new IP back in the day, but now seem to be more of a sequel maker. All new staff have to come from somewhere. People aren't just born as a Nintendo developer you know! I know they do, but it was an already formed studio prior to its acquisition. To me, it's the same as saying that Pixar films are actually Disney films because Disney acquired them. If they replaced staff with existing Nintendo employees (which in time, I guess does happen), and showed them how to make games to a 'Nintendo feel' then I could totally get behind that. To me though, it feels like a company doing what they do already but under Nintendo's banner. Edited March 18, 2014 by Sheikah
Ashley Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 But that's not the case for the quality of the game, is it? It's actually a surprisingly deep game (for what it is).
RedShell Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 It's actually a surprisingly deep game (for what it is).I know, was quite surprised by my playtime for it on the Activity Log.
Ganepark32 Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 People talk about great new IPs like The Last of Us, but seriously how derivative is that game? A third person shooter with a gruff male protagonist set in a post apocalyptic Western setting and the enemies are zombies/mutants created by a plague. The graphics are great, but the colour palette and visual style is nothing to write home about. Xenoblade is far more inventive than that, but it is ignored by gamers who turn their noses up at it because it's different! State of the industry. I love Xenoblade (definitely agree that it's one of the best RPGs of the previous generation) but to say it was inventive is really a stretch. It pretty much took mechanics from both Japanese RPGs (such as FF XII) and Western MMOs and brought them together. It really didn't do anything new in the gameplay department. The reason it is so revered is because it was so cohesive and while it streamlined somethings it still very much tapped into the nostalgia of the bigger PS2 era JRPGs where the majority of other JRPGs last gen streamlined everything and lost a lot of what made them good. And I hate to bang on about The Last of Us again but say what you will about the gameplay but what it did that was innovative was in the storytelling and narrative; a moving story that didn't feel forced and was emotionally evocative from start to finish. More than any other game, TLoU really pushed forward the envelope of compelling narrative in standalone games (the likes of Mass Effect have done the same over the span of several games regardless of how you feel about the overall trilogy ending). So yes, while you may laud the gameplay, the step forward in terms of narrative was/is hugely impressive within the industry and something Nintendo themselves were good at but aren't so much any more and it stands as an example from which Nintendo really should take considerable notes of.
Dcubed Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I know that they bought them. But Nintendo themselves didn't make it. Which was the point I was getting at - Nintendo themselves made some awesome new IP back in the day, but now seem to be more of a sequel maker. I know they do, but it was an already formed studio prior to its acquisition. To me, it's the same as saying that Pixar films are actually Disney films because Disney acquired them. If they replaced staff with existing Nintendo employees (which in time, I guess does happen), and showed them how to make games to a 'Nintendo feel' then I could totally get behind that. To me though, it feels like a company doing what they do already but under Nintendo's banner. So Retro Studios and Intelligent Systems don't make "Nintendo" games then? Gotcha... Not to mention that Nintendo SPD (which is actually Nintendo's oldest development studio, not EAD) actually co-developed the game alongside Monolith Soft anyway...
Agent Gibbs Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 zelda is far more european; hello castles, wizzards, dragons, the villain being an obvious racist joke - very european, hell all they'd need to do is have the hero and perhaps damsel be blond hair and blue eyed and it would be positively airian....oh wait Mario....is odd, it seems to draw from lots of various elements, but rpedominantly its Japanesse (strange animal like gods, the hero turning into animals) Pokemon, could only be more japanesse if it had lesbian school girls and tentacle rape I'm not really wanting to get involved with the debate just want to put forward my two cents on the ethnicity of things. I don't have a problem with any Nintendo IP's perhaps some franchise fatigue with Mario, when there are other Ip's people would prefer first thereby giving a longer wait for mario game so its more well recieved Nintendo's everlasting problem is arrogance when it comes to courting 3rd parties, which is a catch 22 as it turns off 3rd parties and starts that cycle again
Sheikah Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 What, you mean Metroid and DK games, which are already Nintendo property? :p To me, it feels like Nintendo were quite heavily there from the off! From what I can find out, Monolith did nearly all of it, and I wasn't making a huge point anyway. Just that whatever Nintendo themselves were doing in the past, they're mostly doing sequels now.
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