The Mario Epidemic

[Zechs Merquise]

I think it's hilarious the way people talk about there being 'too many Mario games'. The fact is Mario is a mascot, so yes he does appear in a lot of games, maybe 4 or 5 a year. But they are all completely different games.

 

On home consoles Mario has only stared in 7 2D platformers and 4 3D platformers over 6 generations. When you factor in that there have been 7 Halo FPS titles (including the remake of the first and I include this as it had new maps and wasn't simply a remake) in two generations you can see just how hard MS goes for it with Halo.

 

What's more, there will be 4 Gears of War titles and 3 Uncharted titles during just one generation.

 

Mario isn't 'milked', it's not like his main outings are yearly updates. In fact over 6 generations there has been only 7 2D platformers, that's just over 1 per generation. Similarly with the 3D games there has been 4 in 3 generations.

 

There's also only one Mario Kart per generation. Believe me, if Nintendo wanted to milk things Mario Kart Wii 2 would have been the ideal 'milking' title. If it did just half of Mario Kart Wii's sales it would have sold 17 million units.

 

Just look at franchises like NFS, FIFA and of course COD. All of these games produce a yearly update and in the case of FIFA it's justified mainly for a stat and team sheet change.

 

Let's face it, you can't lump all Mario games together. Claiming that Mario Golf, Mario Kart and NSMB are all the same is nonsense.

 

What's more, if people didn't like Mario games they would stop buying them. In the same way that people complain about COD games selling well year on year, but the fact is - they sell well.

[Daft]

I dunno, movie trilogies are pretty standard. Why can't game trilogies be? We've had 4 GoW games in 7 years and 3 Uncharted games in 6 years (4 if you count the Vita version). We've also had 3 Nolan Batman films in 8 years. I think it's perfectly acceptable. If Mario Galaxy 3 was coming out, I don't think that would be a problem - the issue is his 'big' games are supplemented by an utter tundra of other schlock. There must have been over 200 games featuring Mario in the past 25 years.

 

You also have to consider that both Gears of War and Uncharted were new IPs this generation. New major IPs that have become synonymous with their respective platforms. Something Nintendo have not bothered to attempt. There was just more Mario.

 

Like I said, for a company that is an apparent herald for innovation, they sure are unimaginative.

[Cube]

(including the remake of the first and I include this as it had new maps and wasn't simply a remake)

 

It was such an exact remake that you could instantly swap between "old" and "new" versions with the press of one button. The "new maps" were just DLC maps for Halo Reach.

[Jonnas]

I dunno, movie trilogies are pretty standard. Why can't game trilogies be? We've had 4 GoW games in 7 years and 3 Uncharted games in 6 years (4 if you count the Vita version). We've also had 3 Nolan Batman films in 8 years. I think it's perfectly acceptable. If Mario Galaxy 3 was coming out, I don't think that would be a problem - the issue is his 'big' games are supplemented by an utter tundra of other schlock. There must have been over 200 games featuring Mario in the past 25 years.

 

Because films and games are two completely different mediums? With the time it takes to watch a movie trilogy, you're still in the middle of the first game of a trilogy (maybe the second one, if we're talking about LotR ), and this is if you're rushing through the games, instead of experimenting with what you can do.

 

By comparison, a greater amount of games in a shorter period of time is much more saturating (you did just compare 3 films in 8 years to 4 games in 6 years). Also, I thought you were talking about God of War (you were probably talking about Gears), so I went to check and... 5 games in 7 years (all of them quite similar, no less). That's insane.

 

(I also disagree that all Mario games can be considered equal. A similar coating does not mean similar content, but I already know you disagree with me on this.

But I think it's great that you mentioned Batman. Another brand being used due to recognisability, appearing in games, movies and more even though it technically didn't need to be him.)

[Zechs Merquise]

It was such an exact remake that you could instantly swap between "old" and "new" versions with the press of one button. The "new maps" were just DLC maps for Halo Reach.

 

In that case, my mistake. I thought they designed a new set of multi-player maps.

 

However, even without the remake it's still 6 Halo games in 2 generations. The fact is that people love to claim certain games are being 'milked' whilst giving a pass to others. Four Gears of War titles is another perfect example.

 

People will no doubt be groaning all over the internet when the new Mario Kart for Wii U is shown - despite the fact it will be the only Mario Kart title on the Wii U. However I'm that when MS announce their new machine Halo 5 will be at the forefront and will receive rapturous applause - as will the next COD and Battlefield titles.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking anyone for enjoying all those Halo or Gears of War titles. Just don't come on gaming forums pissing your pants in anticipation for the 7th Halo shooter in two generations then look down your nose and claim Mario is being milked because he's on his 7th 2D platformer in 6 generations or a single iteration of Mario Kart is being released per generation.

[Daft]

Because films and games are two completely different mediums? With the time it takes to watch a movie trilogy, you're still in the middle of the first game of a trilogy (maybe the second one, if we're talking about LotR ), and this is if you're rushing through the games, instead of experimenting with what you can do.

 

Personally, I don't find that relevant. I enjoy films in one period of time and I enjoy games in a more extended period of time. It comes down to franchise pacing not the details of the consumption.

 

By comparison, a greater amount of games in a shorter period of time is much more saturating (you did just compare 3 films in 8 years to 4 games in 6 years). Also, I thought you were talking about God of War (you were probably talking about Gears), so I went to check and... 5 games in 7 years (all of them quite similar, no less). That's insane.

 

Was talking about Gears of War, which is 4 games. Also, I do think 4 games is too much - Judgment is pretty much made for the core Gears fans. I guess it comes down to the fact that this is still an IP that is new this generation. It hasn't been around for almost three decades. It is actually a pretty niche game. Similar to Uncharted it has very narrow parameters within which the gameplay works. If Sony for example want to make a karting game they come up with a new IP...and then awkwardly make a second game with Sackboy...essentially they pull a Nintendo and by Lord that was not a decision I was happy with. ModNation just needed to be a better game in the first place, not bloody reskinned.

 

(I also disagree that all Mario games can be considered equal. A similar coating does not mean similar content, but I already know you disagree with me on this.

But I think it's great that you mentioned Batman. Another brand being used due to recognisability, appearing in games, movies and more even though it technically didn't need to be him.)

 

I definitely agree Batman is overused. It's a joke. I am the biggest Batman fan, his ongoing comic is amazing, but I am tired of him in any other context.

 

What it comes down to is Mario is a double-edged sword. He hogs the limelight so I don't expect new and exciting IPs from Nintendo, I do expect it from Sony...and Microsoft to a lesser extent. Although God knows they whore out their core franchises - Say hello Fable and Forza.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Daft

[Jonnas]

Personally, I don't find that relevant. I enjoy films in one period of time and I enjoy games in a more extended period of time. It comes down to franchise pacing not the details of the consumption.

 

Still, the way a movie is enjoyed and the way a game is enjoyed are two different things. I can easily watch three films of a franchise, but even something like 3 Megaman games is harder to stomach, since the gameplay is almost always reset (you're essentially back at square one from the previous games), even thought the core game varies little. Unless each game also feels different and distinct in some way, I think game trilogies really aren't the kind of thing that should be standard.

 

I suppose Mass Effect is an exception where a lot of stuff matters and carries over (I think. I didn't really play them), making the entire plot cohesive, but not many genres lend themselves to this kind of storytelling.

[Retro_Link]

I don't think there's anything wrong in releasing 3 Quality titles spread out over a consoles lifecycle.

 

It's when a franchise is milked every year like Call of Duty it gets tiresome.

 

I don't think many would have complained about a 3rd Mario Galaxy if the console had lasted for another 2 years.

However, it may have got some complaints... and I think this is because, coming back to the subject... of Mario appearing in so many games.

 

You can't get particularly tired of seeing Master Chief or Nathan Drake when those 3 AAA games are their only outings on a console, but you could get tired of seeing Mario's face yet again, INSTEAD OF/AT THE EXPENSE OF some of Nintendo's other franchises continuing to get neglected.

 

The Uncharted games don't seem to be appearing at the expense of any of Sony's other franchises, which is not the case with Nintendo and Mario. And that's when it feels like we need a break from Mario's face.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Retro_Link

[Daft]

Nintendo: We need to give Mario a break. Lets use Link.

[Aneres11]

Lol.

 

I personally welcome the Mario games / franchises onto my Nintendo systems.

 

There is never really a bad Mario game to be fair. Sure, people may not enjoy a certain series due to the genre. I don't get the Mario and Luigi games as I do not like that style of gameplay, but they're still great games.

 

It's funny really as it reminds me of the Wii U launch and the outcry of NSMBU. The 'lazy' title that in actual fact was a very good game. It pissed all over NSMB Wii and was miles better than NSMB2, yet a lot of people dismissed it because it looked the same as the others. Which it's kinda gonna... bein a 2d Mario... and a NSMB game...

Nintendo admitted that the 3DS launch stalled slightly for various reasons, one of them being no major Nintendo title for consumers to pick up with their new console. Sure, the Wii U launch was less than good, but my guess is that it probably would have been worse if that Mario game wasn't there too.

 

Anywho, I buy Nintendo systems for games like this. There' nothing else like it.

No 3d Mario game has ever been beaten by anything else like it, aside from Banjo and Kazooie which is an arguable point. Or the game that comes after it.

Their 2d games, again, nothing really matches them for me (and I own all 3 consoles), and I welcome the spin offs that come using the Mario kingdom / universe.

 

Take Mario Golf on the 3DS. It looks great. Mainly because the courses are full of Mushroom Kingdom goodness. If Nintendo threw out a 'Nintendo Golf' game, set on standard golf courses with bland characters who meant nothing to Nintendo, or who weren't identifiable with the company, I don't think many would be interested.

 

Therefore I don't blame Nintendo for using what sells. If they were using Mario in a derogatory sense, e.g. making shite games with his face on to sell systems / titles, then I'd be a little put out. But generally they don't. They put a whole load of love and care into their Mario games and they set the bar.

 

As for them being unimaginative, I totally disagree. Some may think their software lacks it, but their hardware says otherwise.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Aneres11

[Rummy]

Finally read through the thread! A very interesting debate. Most points have been made though.

 

-Re: Paper Mario vs M&L - this is guilty of the exact thing we're criticising. However, I love that style and want as much as I can get. I don't want the games bundled into one - they have very distinct aspects. M&L for me(haven't played all btw) seemed to focus more on writing and characters, particularly the interplay of the two brothers. Paper Mario has had some fantastic writing too, but the lack of luigi seems to make it quite different for me. Also I really enjoyed what they did with Sticker Star, despite the complaints - it was innovation and a step in a new direction which likely wouldn't happen if both RPG titles were the same, essentially. Btw @Agent Gibbs, have you actually played Sticker Star?

 

-I think the main criminal in question is the 'New' series, as has also been said. They're all too similar, and too often. Most other Marios have differed a bit more, this seems to refuse to do so - that frustrates because it looks like not enough effort is being made. @Fused King hit it well quite early by saying that they should craft more world around, and do some more new things with it. I'd love if they could do again what they did with SM64. I felt like that was really different and new(though the 3d jump helped a lot).

 

-Spinoffs I don't mind. I feel Mario has a certain vibe of allness to it. Like in Mario Kart, the racing ability is balanced out by the items - so sometimes even when you're crap you can still win. I don't play many of the spinoff titles, but I enjoyed Strikers Charged quite a bit with its item usage and not so serious nature(despite getting quite hard later, though). Mario Party can be fun, though I've only played a couple of the many titles in it. Mario Kart is now going like 'New' and needs a good shakeup or a generation's break or something.

[Cube]

You can't get particularly tired of seeing Master Chief or Nathan Drake when those 3 AAA games are their only outings on a console

 

I also think it's harder to tire of Master Chief because he's hardly a character - he's just a design. ODST is my favourite because the characters are so much better than the rest of the franchise.

 

No 3d Mario game has ever been beaten by anything else like it

 

I'd say that could be argued, with games like Donkey Kong 64, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Rayman 2, Sly Cooper and Ratchet & Clank.

 

SM64 is second only to Banjo-Kazooie, but for the rest of them I feel it could be debated (especially Sunshine).

[Aneres11]

I also think it's harder to tire of Master Chief because he's hardly a character - he's just a design. ODST is my favourite because the characters are so much better than the rest of the franchise.

 

 

 

I'd say that could be argued, with games like Donkey Kong 64, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Rayman 2, Sly Cooper and Ratchet & Clank.

 

SM64 is second only to Banjo-Kazooie, but for the rest of them I feel it could be debated (especially Sunshine).

 

Yeah those games you mentioned are definitely great games.

 

But in my opinion the 3d Mario games are head and shoulders above them all. As mentioned Banjo and Kazooie is the only one that can rival in terms of gameplay - imo of course.

[Dcubed]

I also think it's harder to tire of Master Chief because he's hardly a character - he's just a design. ODST is my favourite because the characters are so much better than the rest of the franchise.

 

 

 

I'd say that could be argued, with games like Donkey Kong 64, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Rayman 2, Sly Cooper and Ratchet & Clank.

 

SM64 is second only to Banjo-Kazooie, but for the rest of them I feel it could be debated (especially Sunshine).

 

I wouldn't say that this is Mario 64 alike at all. In many ways, it's the anti-3D Platformer as it completely flies in the face of the typical Mario 64 structure, abandons the concept of object collection and even goes into full on 3rd person shooter for a whole 2 chapters! (it invented the over-the-shoulder view that defined RE4 and its spawn - it even included the same laser sight as RE4!)

[Rummy]

I dunno, I think DK64 was pretty well crafted - possibly a better game than Mario64. However that's the problem, most of the games mentioned that could match/beat(B&K, DK, Conker) are/were Rare properties. Rare propped the N64 up well, since Nintendo lost them there's been a void that hasn't quite been filled - they need to get someone like that back.

[Agent Gibbs]

@Agent Gibbs, have you actually played Sticker Star?

 

Yes, i got bored at world three, too little story, useless annoying guide person who made Navi look like Steven Fry, and little to no memorable characters, unless the game got better by a country mile at world 4 or beyond it might be one of the games i never finish. its like the worst of super paper mario mixed with a reasonable RPG battle system, then as an after thought a story akin to FF1/LOZ levels (a cover note in a manual)

[Retro_Link]

... DK64 was a great game?

[nekunando]

There probably aren't many better experiences in gaming than a great Mario game. Despite there probably being several exceptions, a game featuring the plumber used to all but guarantee its quality, particularly during the sublime SNES and N64 eras

 

Since then, however, he has appeared in so many games of varying quality that his appeal and reputation has certainly been diluted over the years

[Rummy]

Yes, i got bored at world three, too little story, useless annoying guide person who made Navi look like Steven Fry, and little to no memorable characters, unless the game got better by a country mile at world 4 or beyond it might be one of the games i never finish. its like the worst of super paper mario mixed with a reasonable RPG battle system, then as an after thought a story akin to FF1/LOZ levels (a cover note in a manual)

 

Ah, all fair points(I hadn't meant to imply you hadn't played it, but was curious for exactly this/what you didn't like). Personally I loved it, though no, it doesn't mix up much beyond what you've said and I do actually have to still finish it too. I never played SPM, so I can't comment on that. I would say StickerStar played more like it was a mixup of regular mario style with paper aspects thrown in, but I really liked that.

[Fused King]

I think we already finished the next Roundtable @Mokong X\-C

[Agent Gibbs]

Ah, all fair points(I hadn't meant to imply you hadn't played it, but was curious for exactly this/what you didn't like). Personally I loved it, though no, it doesn't mix up much beyond what you've said and I do actually have to still finish it too. I never played SPM, so I can't comment on that. I would say StickerStar played more like it was a mixup of regular mario style with paper aspects thrown in, but I really liked that.

 

no thats okay i never thought you were implying that....(although now i do:laughing:)

 

SPM playes like a regular mario game but in a paper mario style and had no turn based battles, it was litterally a platform game.

[Retro_Link]

I think we already finished the next Roundtable @Mokong X\-C

Seriously @Mokong X\-C this thread could go up on the main site in an edited/concise form as the next one.

 

This is what we need to get into doing on this board. Very enjoyable.

[tapedeck]

Like I said, for a company that is an apparent herald for innovation, they sure are unimaginative.

 

I would argue the toss here and state that just because the protagonist exists in another title, that doesn't add up to a lack of imagination. Mario isnt just a character per se. Mario adventures stand for memorable, fun, somehwat tactile experiences. This is Nintendo's ethos with all of their core characters.

 

As we saw with Mario Sunshine and (literally) Mario Galaxy, it seems that Nintendo is willing to take Mario and co. far away from the Mushroom kingdom in order to implement new gameplay ideas and mechanics. The mechanics and gameplay aspects - and how they fit around the game like a giant puzzle piece are the imaginative facets here. (And is what keeps players coming back and talking about their favourite Mario game - they usually differ!)

 

I can see where some may argue they may be playing it 'safe' using the same character but if they can use Mario as an extension of the player to just let them experience new forms of play - that's a clear imaginative innovation. From day 1 Mario was invented as a relatable character (kinda like how Link/Samus start of weaker and grow with the player). This unspoken story aspect allows all kinds of subconscious relationship and mastery building to take place. If Mario was stronger, faster and cooler than the player he wouldn't appeal to as many players as he does.

 

The amount of gameplay concepts seen in the Mario Galaxy 'double pack' was (as a collective) infinitely more varied than another jaunt through the eyes of the Killzone/CoD/Halo/Uncharted/Assassins Creed crew which started to suffer from franchise fatigue by the end of their trilogies.

Edited February 19, 2013 by tapedeck

[Retro_Link]

... Although I know I'm in an extremely small minority, but Galaxy 2 did bore me.

 

---

 

I think I might like to see a very 'Super Mario World' theme for a future 3D Mario...

 

 

This cartoon did a lot for my imagination as a kid, and of course having a love of dinosaurs anyway! :p

 

When I say I think there's a lot more Nintendo could do with Mario in terms of cutscenes or story, you only have to look at how fun these episodes were; ok they were somewhat naff, but they brought the characters out so much more, instead of Mario just being a vessel to get from A to B as he is in the Galaxy games.

 

I loved the personality of the Koopa Kids, Kamek, and even how generic enemies like mecha koopa's, or Blargg's had character and humour.

 

I don't feel that's been done in a 3D Mario yet... and I imagine it's why people love the Mario RPG games so much.

 

There's also ALOT of potential in terms of a graphical style... I don't know, I really think Nintendo could do a great Pixar/Ratchet & Clank esque adventure if they wanted too.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Retro_Link