The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild Wii U / Switch

[Sheikah]

20 hours ago, Glen-i said:

The Wii U release schedule was great, it was let down by the unappealing hardware. Wii U's first party library runs rings around the Switch's.

 

3 hours ago, Glen-i said:

When it comes to Nintendo, you are ignoring one thing, their handheld library.

Feels like you're moving the goalposts here. You said that that the Wii U's first party library runs rings around the Switch's, then when people started reeling off game after game that the Switch had that the Wii U didn't you're then more or less saying "you're forgetting they've combined their handheld library into it". It is a fair discussion that they've combined their outputs and arguably we're seeing less from them overall, but that doesn't change the situation that there was more of significance released on Switch than Wii U (and the Switch is still live and kicking).

We're also seeing discussions here about reusing game engines and whether games were built on previous Wii U games. That's not really the point, is it? If a Nintendo game came out on Switch that wasn't released at an earlier date on a previous console then it counts. Nobody really cares if they saved time and money by building on a previous engine, that's geek stuff!

Edited January 7, 2021 by Sheikah

[RedShell]

5 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

Nobody really cares if they saved time and money by building on a previous engine, that's geek stuff!

You’re aware this is a video game forum, right?

[Julius]

2 minutes ago, RedShell said:

You’re aware this is a video game forum, right?

Wait, that's what everyone's been talking about? 

Spoiler

 

[Sheikah]

1 hour ago, RedShell said:

You’re aware this is a video game forum, right?

Fair enough, there are geeks on this forum.

But honestly, if we discounted every game because it used the same engine or assets then there'd be a whoooole lot of games we couldn't could because of Unreal Engine 4.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Sheikah

[Dcubed]

The problem isn’t that they’re reusing engines and assets.  The problem is that their internal production output has plummeted, despite the reuse of engines and assets.

Take away the Wii/Wii U derived games and there is almost nothing to play on the damn thing!

Switch doesn’t have much to offer if you’ve played all of these ports/remakes to death before.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Dcubed

[Goron_3]

The Wii U's output was fine if you enjoyed those medium budget, AA titles. It's complete lack of system sellers was the issue, especially with the high price. The software strategy was abysmal, not helped by the fact that the target audience had moved on. My first year on Switch had BOTW2 and Mario Odyssey, which quite frankly was better than the entire Wii U's lifespan (and funnily enough, better than any subsequent Switch year).

Getting this back on topic, I really hope this sequel has more 'inside' areas. As much as I loved exploring BOTW, my favourite area of the games was easily Hyrule Castle. A couple of area's like that before the end of the game would be most welcome. I'm also intrigued to see if they can add underwater traversal.

[bob]

So I only found out recently that you can cut the legs off Guardians.

I had previously avoided them, because the first one i killed took me about 30 mins to chip away at while hiding on top of a cliff, and every other one since then had destroyed me.

 

I found out about the leg chopping, and took down two of the fuckers in about 5 mins! 

[Cube]

43 minutes ago, bob said:

So I only found out recently that you can cut the legs off Guardians.

I had previously avoided them, because the first one i killed took me about 30 mins to chip away at while hiding on top of a cliff, and every other one since then had destroyed me.

 

I found out about the leg chopping, and took down two of the fuckers in about 5 mins! 

If you time a shield parry correctly, you can kill them in a few seconds. 

[bob]

If you time a shield parry correctly, you can kill them in a few seconds. 

*furiously Googles what a shield parry is*

[Ronnie]

I don't think I chopped off any Guardian legs once in nearly 200 hours! Shield parry is the way, but the timing can be tricky at first, don't use wooden shields they'll just burn up with each attempt.

[BowserBasher]

 This is what I have loved about this game. There’s are near limitless ways to play it and some people don’t even realise of others ways people have played. Shrines are a prime example on how they are completed differently and people just think the way they did it was the way it was supposed to be done. 

[Ronnie]

1 hour ago, BowserBasher said:

 This is what I have loved about this game. There’s are near limitless ways to play it and some people don’t even realise of others ways people have played. Shrines are a prime example on how they are completed differently and people just think the way they did it was the way it was supposed to be done. 

The systems-driven sandbox is easily the standout aspect of the game. "Open-air adventure" as Nintendo calls it is spot on. They've got a great thing going, and with refinements the sequel could be even more special. Maybe that's why it seems to be taking a while.

Also I feel like very few big name developers would have the balls of putting a game out where you can run to the final boss from the very beginning lol.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Ronnie

[Julius]

13 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

The systems-driven sandbox is easily the standout aspect of the game. "Open-air adventure" as Nintendo calls it is spot on. They've got a great thing going, and with refinements the sequel could be even more special. Maybe that's why it seems to be taking a while.

Also I feel like very few big name developers would have the balls of putting a game out where you can run to the final boss from the very beginning lol.

Yeah, they've got the systems down for sure (kind of reminds me of MGS V in that way - even though from what I hear the narrative is a mess, those missions I found fun when I spent a few hours with it years ago before playing the earlier games).

It's easily my favourite game when it comes to exploration, I can't really think of any game that comes close in that regard. I imagine some might argue the first Zelda? 

I've mentioned before that I think it has some issues, but I will be very surprised if the sequel doesn't go some way to mending some of those.

I'm fine with weapon durability, but the rate at which weapons degrade felt much faster than what I came across in Demon's Souls (of all games, right?), and not having a way to repair weapons (let alone regularly) was an odd choice. Yes, it pushes you to use a wider range of weapons, but it means you can come away not really feeling like a master of any of them. Upgrading weapons would also be interesting in this world I think. 

I think my biggest issue is probably the lack of narrative direction. I love getting lost and going exploring, and the world itself actually does a great job in how it's designed in putting you on the path towards finding something interesting time and time again, but I came away from Breath of the Wild thinking it's probably as minimalistic a plot as you could get, which felt like such a waste given how many hints there were of this world having a great history - it felt like everything had happened before you woke up. Granted, yeah, it's basically a post-apocalyptic Zelda, and not every open world game nails quest lines and recurring characters particularly well (I liked Horizon, but I can't tell you the names of many characters outside of the ones you'd find in a story synopsis), but now that Hyrule is supposedly being/has been rebuilt, I think it's a good chance to fill the world up with more meaningful characters and quests. I mean, imagine coming across a village under attack, and having a short quest line where you go full on Seven Samurai, train the villagers, and go to battle with them at your side (heck, you could make that a longer quest line and a mini game with the Blood Moons). There's a solid foundation that I really hope they flesh out. 

@Goron_3, definitely agree with you when it comes to Hyrule Castle, one of my favourite locations in BotW for sure. The music, the scale, it's one of the few locations in the game which sets the tone and let's it sit (not saying that's a bad thing, but it's definitely a thing which makes it more memorable). Hopefully dungeons make a return in a more traditional manner in the sequel to help have more places like this. 

Actually, speaking of dungeons, I know a lot of people have spoken about having a playable Zelda and having Link tackle the underground and dungeons. I really like this idea, I mean, you did basically master Link in the first game - I feel like some areas could become a bit repetitive if you come across them with him again, at least at the start. Have Link stuck underground for a fair chunk, clearing a dungeon perhaps to change something happening in the world to make it safer for Zelda to travel to whatever is above ground, or to learn something, and then have Zelda above ground (for a fair bit) actually travelling across Hyrule for the first time, visiting towns and villages which are being rebuilt, and heck, let us gain some mastery of her magic, too. She could still use light weapons, but having her use magic would give her a different moveset to tackle enemies which might return from the first game, and I think that would be a really interesting way to have her progress throughout the game. 

I mean, further than that - LET US TRANSFER OUR SAVE OVER (one of my favourite things which took few games actually do)! Get our hearts and stamina carried over, have Link be a beast from the start (have a healthy amount to start with for those who don't have a save to carry over), because he should be - this is a sequel, and he's already grown in this world. I really think that seeing Zelda grow, and learn about her kingdom, would be the ideal way - narratively and in terms of exploration too - to revisit the locales from the first game, because it keeps it fresh.

Oh, and if it wasn't for Hyrule Castle seemingly doing it's best impression of a space shuttle in the trailer, I'd be saying that and/or Castle Town could be this game's Tarrey Town. 

The Breath of the Wild sequel is easily my most anticipated Nintendo game right now, and it's probably on par with Final Fantasy XVI (in terms of actually announced titles, anyways) for my most anticipated games on any console. 

Do you guys expect it to release this year? I feel like that would have been the aim before COVID, but we should at least see it if it didn't release this year (what with it being the 35th anniversary and all), right? 

[Goron_3]

Some other points...

Combat can be broken too easily because:

1. Link has an extraordinary appetite and can just eat constantly, which makes a lot of combat encounters too easy. One of my favourite things about Dark Souls is that you have to heal in real time; a similar system would be great. Additionally, give Link a hunger meter so you can only stuff his face when he's hungry. 

2  The combat system is easily broken because the last minute dodge -> Flurry attack (is that what it's called?) is triggered by a dodge in any direction when the enemy is in an attacking state, even if their attack is nowhere near Link. The moment I realised this is the moment became too easy (despite quite hard before that!).

As Ronnie states above, the foundations of the game are excellent

[Cube]

On a similar note, it is kind of a shame that there's so much effort put into the cooking mechanics....but at the end of a day just cooking a single Hearty radish/truffle/bass is by far the best use of it. 

[bob]

Some other points...
Combat can be broken too easily because:
1. Link has an extraordinary appetite and can just eat constantly, which makes a lot of combat encounters too easy. One of my favourite things about Dark Souls is that you have to heal in real time; a similar system would be great. Additionally, give Link a hunger meter so you can only stuff his face when he's hungry. 
2  The combat system is easily broken because the last minute dodge -> Flurry attack (is that what it's called?) is triggered by a dodge in any direction when the enemy is in an attacking state, even if their attack is nowhere near Link. The moment I realised this is the moment became too easy (despite quite hard before that!).
As Ronnie states above, the foundations of the game are excellent [emoji4]

*Furiously Googles Flurry attack*

[LazyBoy]

It’s a generational game. The further on in time I get from my first play through the more that is evident. Universal systems, the likes of which make BotW so flexible, so open to creativity, were far more present in older games I feel. As games became bigger and more complicated it became easier just to create big games with many systems - think GTA where between the driving and shooting you almost have 2 different games. Eventually we got Ubisoft style games where you have a sneaking game, a platforming game, a management sim and a combat emulator all existing in one package but all requiring the user to stick to that system at any one time. BotW feels like the first in a long while to reset and say “here’s the challenge, here are your tools, go nuts”. Leave out your shite wannabe moviemaker plot lines and your ‘cinematic gameplay’, empower the player and they will create their own art.

[Julius]

21 minutes ago, LazyBoy said:

It’s a generational game. The further on in time I get from my first play through the more that is evident. Universal systems, the likes of which make BotW so flexible, so open to creativity, were far more present in older games I feel. As games became bigger and more complicated it became easier just to create big games with many systems - think GTA where between the driving and shooting you almost have 2 different games. Eventually we got Ubisoft style games where you have a sneaking game, a platforming game, a management sim and a combat emulator all existing in one package but all requiring the user to stick to that system at any one time. BotW feels like the first in a long while to reset and say “here’s the challenge, here are your tools, go nuts”.

Yeah, for sure.

I definitely feel a pang to return to BotW sometimes, just being away from that level of freedom (especially being cooped up due to lockdown) really makes me want more. Even with me having some issues with the game, I think it's a really strong foundation. 

Quote

Leave out your shite wannabe moviemaker plot lines and your ‘cinematic gameplay’, empower the player and they will create their own art.

I know we've discussed this elsewhere in other threads before, and I don't want to derail this one too much, but I've been thinking about this a whole lot lately, pretty much exclusively because of my experience with Demon's Souls. I think my perspective on this has shifted slightly because of that game alone, and I feel I have a much more refined idea of what I do and don't like about cinematic storytelling in video games. 

I do think storytelling is important in games, and I still think it's the best medium by far and away to convey the very thing many in the world seem to lack today: empathy. It's also, at it's best, the very best way to immerse yourself in a world, explore, and learn about it, simply because it has a level of interactivity which film and books do not. Don't get me wrong: a game does not have to have a good story to be a good game, but I do think good stories have and will continue to be told in games. 

But to highlight your "movie maker plot lines" comment, I think that this is the issue with some video game stories. I think back to playing Mafia: Definitive Edition and Mafia II last year, and I can tell you for a fact that those games would be better served as a TV series or a couple of films. It's a movie script made a video game. There is a clear A to B in terms of narrative which is heavily dependent on telling you a story rather than you experiencing it (case in point: a time skip scene where it is explained to you that an entire mob war goes down, the part where there should logically be the most gameplay, and the entire thing takes up a footnote in a cutscene), the entire world feels like set dressing, and it being a game does not serve the narrative, it's characters, or the purpose of being a game rather than a film. 

I compare this to the final scene from The Last of Us, or the moments in Final Fantasy games where it manages to make a game out of the most mundane things to allow you to experience it (the opera scene in VI comes to mind), or any of the amazing moments in the first three MGS games, and it is crystal clear that even though these are narrative driven games with cinematic storytelling, at their best moments, they are a video game. You do not watch the ending of The Last of Us, you play it, and I feel like the entire game could have fallen flat had the decision been made to make that play out as a cutscene. You do not watch the blunders of the Final Fantasy VI cast as they're dragged into an opera, but you take part in it!

It's such a small yet enormous difference. And then, you know, those attempts at cinematic storytelling aside, you'll have games like Shadow of the Colossus, Inside, and Demon's Souls, where the entire game is you experiencing and learning about a world, its history and it's present, conveying so much through your interactions with and exploration of it. 

I think these examples manage to ride that fine line between empowering the player and achieving a high quality of video game storytelling. It's fundamentally why, while I enjoy the Uncharted games for what they are, for me they fall short of that greatness of the first Last of Us.

And of course, this is all subjective, but I think it's a really interesting topic. I think Breath of the Wild definitely falls into the latter category with your Shadow of the Colossus and Soulsborne games where the world you're experiencing is doing so much if the heavy lifting, but the way in which I think it can improve on its actual storytelling would be to give more of a sense of direction at times. I think about Wander raising his sword up to seek the next Colossi, or how Demon's Souls is weirdly like a Mario game in its level structure, and it's that sort of thing I'd like to see in the Breath of the Wild sequel I guess. 

It's difficult, but I do think there's a fine line it could straddle between having a great sense of adventure and exploration, and having a greater sense of direction in its narrative and character interactions. 

[Glen-i]

17 hours ago, Goron_3 said:

Some other points...

Combat can be broken too easily because:

1. Link has an extraordinary appetite and can just eat constantly, which makes a lot of combat encounters too easy. One of my favourite things about Dark Souls is that you have to heal in real time; a similar system would be great. Additionally, give Link a hunger meter so you can only stuff his face when he's hungry. 

2  The combat system is easily broken because the last minute dodge -> Flurry attack (is that what it's called?) is triggered by a dodge in any direction when the enemy is in an attacking state, even if their attack is nowhere near Link. The moment I realised this is the moment became too easy (despite quite hard before that!).

Funny that you point out these two things, because they both got addressed... In Age of Calamity.

Flurry Rush is so much more satisfying when it feels like you've earned it.

[LazyBoy]

@Julius you’re completely right - I tend towards hyperbole after a couple drinks. Of course there is not a ‘Correct’ type of game, and narrative lead games are just as valid as any others. As you reference - the Souls games are nothing without their world building, and though I criticise the lack of gameplay innovation in Last of Us 2, I thoroughly enjoyed the first one. 

I just love BotW.

[Goron_3]

On 09/01/2021 at 9:57 AM, Glen-i said:

Funny that you point out these two things, because they both got addressed... In Age of Calamity.

Flurry Rush is so much more satisfying when it feels like you've earned it.

Oh wow! I'm tempted to check that game out actually.

I've been playing through the Dark Souls games recently and the super tight timing of the parry is something that I'd love to see in Zelda. Glad to see AoC has addressed the issue.

[Glen-i]

3 hours ago, Goron_3 said:

Oh wow! I'm tempted to check that game out actually.

I've been playing through the Dark Souls games recently and the super tight timing of the parry is something that I'd love to see in Zelda. Glad to see AoC has addressed the issue.

Word of warning though, don't buy AoC because you like the exploration of BotW, you won't find it there, it's very much focused on the combat.

[Cube]

 

Standard tactics, really.

[Goron_3]

I've been doing some thinking around why I enjoyed Hyrule Castle so much (as mentioned in my post above) and whilst playing Dark Souls 3 yesterday it finally clicked.

You see, the Souls games do a really great job of creating environments that feel realistic in terms of the way they are designed. Exploring the castle at the end of Dark Souls 3 for example is great fun because the level is set up to feel like like you're exploring an actual castle, as opposed to a gamified environment (for example, a typical Zelda dungeon) where you have things like locks, keys, maps and other treasure chests hidden in areas which require a suspension of belief to understand why they are there.

With Hyrule Castle, from memory, they never introduced locks and keys and whatnot. Instead, it seemed like they just focused on building a castle so exploring it felt much more natural. Going through libraries or discovering a bedroom for example felt much more organic. 

[Cube]

I think that's partly why people liked the dungeons in Twilight Princess, a few of them felt like actual areas (like the Yeti's house) instead of just a set of random puzzle rooms put together.