Tomodachi Life

[Dcubed]

The overall point is still invalid (that it would be a mature rated game if they included LGBTQ relationships). The Sims 3 allows for homosexual relationships and it's rated 12 in the UK and Teen (13+) in the USA.

 

Nintendo may typically like U-rated games, but it's not like all of their games are.

 

Gay couples don't make a game M rated, they make it T rated AFAIK (and yes I agree that it's terrible).

 

Oh and the "gay badgers" was a typo (DAMN YOU IPHONE AUTOCORRECT!!!) I meant to say "gay bashers" (who shouldn't be given the time of day by anyone).

 

But the point about them having to give into other groups isn't a matter of sociopolitical or humanitarian matters, but rather artistic integrity. People demanding Nintendo to implement gay marriage into the game (which is not a trivial thing to do for reasons I have stated before) are no better than those who demanded Bioware to alter the ending of Mass Effect 3 after release. It's effectively the same thing (for different reasons but the effect is essentially the same. People are demanding the developers to alter their vision of their game to fit the demands of a vocal minority).

 

It's a slippery slope that they no doubt don't want to be dragged down, so while it might be a good gesture for them to make (that would of course win them some PR brownie points now), it will damage them significantly in the long run. That's why I don't think it's worth them doing it.

 

It's not a matter of them not caring (and there are LGBT characters in Nintendo games to prove it - along with characters who are welcome to cross dressers and the like - especially in Animal Crossing) but it's just not the right thing for them to do in this case. For their own sake it's better to keep out of it as it would damage them in the long run.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Dcubed

[Ashley]

Gay couples don't make a game M rated, they make it T rated AFAIK (and yes I agree that it's terrible).

 

Oh and the "gay badgers" was a typo (DAMN YOU IPHONE AUTOCORRECT!!!) I meant to say "gay bashers" (who shouldn't be given the time of day by anyone).

 

But the point about them having to give into other groups isn't a matter of sociopolitical or humanitarian matters, but rather artistic integrity. People demanding Nintendo to implement gay marriage into the game (which is not a trivial thing to do for reasons I have stated before) are no better than those who demanded Bioware to alter the ending of Mass Effect 3 after release. It's effectively the same thing (for different reasons but the effect is essentially the same).

 

It's a slippery slope that they no doubt don't want to be dragged down, so while it might be a good gesture for them to make (that would of course win them some PR brownie points now), it will damage them significantly in the long run. That's why I don't think it's worth them doing it.

 

It's not a matter of them not caring (and there are plenty of LGBT characters in Nintendo games to prove it) but it's just not the right thing for them to do in this case. For their own sake it's better to keep out of it as it would damage them in the long run.

 

I imagine it's more that there is sexuality (of any sort) that causes a teen rating.

 

And it is absolutely different from ME3. The latter is a case of being dissatisfied with an ending in the same way people were with HIMYM. The former is part of society being excluded from a game that is based on society. It is in no shape the same thing and while I'm sure it wasn't intentional, suggesting that it is the same is somewhat insulting.

 

Who are these LGBT characters in Nintendo games? Birdo's gender identity was retconned in Captain Rainbow (he proved she was biologically female) and the star, while drowning in camp iconography, was never explicitly stated as homosexual as far as I'm aware but forgive me if I'm wrong.

[Ronnie]

People demanding Nintendo to implement gay marriage into the game (which is not a trivial thing to do for reasons I have stated before) are no better than those who demanded Bioware to alter the ending of Mass Effect 3 after release. It's effectively the same thing (for different reasons but the effect is essentially the same. People are demanding the developers to alter their vision of their game to fit the demands of a vocal minority).

 

What a cringe worthy, ignorant thing to say. You're honestly equating demanding changes to a poor ending with not excluding a sizeable proportion of the population from a game that is based on society?

[Dcubed]

I imagine it's more that there is sexuality (of any sort) that causes a teen rating.

 

And it is absolutely different from ME3. The latter is a case of being dissatisfied with an ending in the same way people were with HIMYM. The former is part of society being excluded from a game that is based on society. It is in no shape the same thing and while I'm sure it wasn't intentional, suggesting that it is the same is somewhat insulting.

 

Who are these LGBT characters in Nintendo games? Birdo's gender identity was retconned in Captain Rainbow (he proved she was biologically female) and the star, while drowning in camp iconography, was never explicitly stated as homosexual as far as I'm aware but forgive me if I'm wrong.

 

Several Fire Emblem characters are openly gay or lesbian (I forget which ones though) and Birdo's gender gets retconned in almost every game (he's male in Mario Golf WT I believe), it's a long running gag at this point.

 

A lot of Nintendo's characters are also genderless (Kirby, Yoshi - who should really be biologically female but whatever, most Mario enemies etc). Several gay characters also appear in Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland too.

 

Oh and I never said that the reasoning for these two groups' actions were the same but rather that the methodology involved and the result are the same. These groups are asking the developers to change their game to fit their demands, regardless of whatever vision the developer had for it originally. In both cases there is that same question of artistic integrity (intentional or otherwise).

 

What a cringe worthy, ignorant thing to say. You're honestly equating demanding changes to a poor ending with not excluding a sizeable proportion of the population from a game that is based on society?

 

It doesn't matter what they're arguing for here or who is asking, but rather WHAT they are asking from the developer here. In both cases, they are asking their respective developers to go back and alter their games to fit their demands. Same thing, regardless of the reasoning why (and likewise, Nintendo implementing gay marriage into Tomodachi Life would instigate the same precedent that changing Mass Effect 3's ending has done to Bioware)

Edited May 9, 2014 by Dcubed

[Ronnie]

So if a developer writes a blatantly racist bit of dialogue in a game, people shouldn't demand that it's changed? Of course the reasoning behind the request matters.

[Dcubed]

So if a developer writes a blatantly racist bit of dialogue in a game, people shouldn't demand that it's changed? Of course the reasoning behind the request matters.

 

So games can't have racist characters now? Only movies and books are allowed to feature characters who are racist now? Ok...

 

Hell might as well wipe out Punchout from existence then...

[Serebii]

Nintendo just posted this

 

We apologize for disappointing many people by failing to include same-sex relationships in Tomodachi Life. Unfortunately, it is not possible for us to change this game’s design, and such a significant development change can’t be accomplished with a post-ship patch. At Nintendo, dedication has always meant going beyond the games to promote a sense of community, and to share a spirit of fun and joy. We are committed to advancing our longtime company values of fun and entertainment for everyone. We pledge that if we create a next installment in the Tomodachi series, we will strive to design a game-play experience from the ground up that is more inclusive, and better represents all players.

http://www.nintendo.com/whatsnew/detail/c4FWbi-Uave2T9R1h7SFzX0aoa-d4pgx

[Cube]

(and likewise, Nintendo implementing gay marriage into Tomodachi Life would instigate the same precedent that changing Mass Effect 3's ending has done to Bioware)

 

So...they'll be a much more respectable company because they're willing to say "you're right, we messed this up. Here is a new version which still fits entirely with our vision while fixing as many problems as possible"?

[dazzybee]

Yeah just saw it. I bet they can't believe how much shit this has threw up.... I didn't even know relationships and babies were a part of the game... But at least they've acknowledged and responded to it positively.

[Dcubed]

So...they'll be a much more respectable company because they're willing to say "you're right, we messed this up. Here is a new version which still fits entirely with our vision while fixing as many problems as possible"?

 

Funnily enough, that's more or less what they just literally said now...

 

I still think it's not a good idea to make a promise like that as it binds the development team to a demand for a specific feature (no way could they get away without including it now!). But on the other hand it does give them a starting point for a potential sequel I guess...

 

At least it means that they're not gonna alter the game they're currently releasing against their will

 

Also on the plus side, going by the fact that they mentioned the possibility of a sequel, it implies that they'll have a localisation in mind from the outset!

 

It's not ideal, but at least they're not giving up their artistic integrity here (indeed it's pretty much the usual sequel process - ideas that don't make it into the current game get saved for the next one - but just made public in this case)

Edited May 9, 2014 by Dcubed

[tapedeck]

Damn. Nintendo can't catch a break at the moment. Even when they release the games they get hammered!

[Dcubed]

Damn. Nintendo can't catch a break at the moment. Even when they release the games they get hammered!

 

On the plus side this fiasco means more exposure for the game. More eyeballs = more potential sales!

[Ike]

I'm just glad we're getting the game at all.

[Serebii]

And comments like this are appearing

I thought you guys were more FAMILY oriented? Please don't succomb to "peer pressure."

https://www.facebook.com/NintendoHandheldGaming/posts/663782163693778

 

They can't win.

 

Also, people STILL believe Nintendo patched this out originally. Good god.

[Ashley]

What would have been a good move, in many regards, would be for them to pledge some of the game's profits towards something like Youth on Fire or the Albert Kenny Trust.

[Cube]

It's not ideal, but at least they're not giving up their artistic integrity here

 

They wouldn't be giving up their "artistic integrity" if they altered the game in this manner.

 

Unless it was an "artistic" decision to purposely exclude homosexual relationships (which it wasn't).

[Sheikah]

 

At least it means that they're not gonna alter the game they're currently releasing against their will

 

If it was against their will as opposed to it being too difficult then that's pretty bad, no? And we shouldn't really be happy about it.

 

I do think the whole situation has been blown up a bit though. Poor Nintendo.

[Daft]

Imagine what this says to LGBTQ kids, potentially quite fragile children and teens "no this playground is not for the likes of you".

 

And worse than that - their statement in response to all this says 'you are a social "issue" that it isn't appropriate to address in a non-political setting.'

 

This game didn't magically spring into being, it was coded. Someone wrote the code that meant their couldn't be same sex couples.

[Grazza]

This is about artistic freedom and freedom of conscience. Nintendo's right to not include something is more important than anyone's desire for it to be included. It doesn't matter to me whether it's about race, sexual orientation or whatever, the author of any fiction or software retains the right to design it how they want.

 

Secondly, this is a problem with globalisation. Just because gay marriage is sweeping the West, doesn't mean Japan is under any obligation to accept it. If gay marriage is not legal in Japan, then of course their games won't reflect it. The backlash about this just reinforces the idea that Westerners can't accept Japanese games as they are.

[Dcubed]

Imagine what this says to LGBTQ kids, potentially quite fragile children and teens "no this playground is not for the likes of you".

 

And worse than that - their statement in response to all this says 'you are a social "issue" that it isn't appropriate to address in a non-political setting.'

 

This game didn't magically spring into being, it was coded. Someone wrote the code that meant their couldn't be same sex couples.

 

Well rather it was a matter of it not being coded in to allow same sex couples since it would have to be specifically programmed in to work, but of course the player wouldn't see it from that perspective... so I see your point. Bit of a rock and a hard place here.

 

If it was against their will as opposed to it being too difficult then that's pretty bad, no? And we shouldn't really be happy about it.

 

I do think the whole situation has been blown up a bit though. Poor Nintendo.

 

You know what I mean here! :p (i.e not another Mass Effect type situation)

 

I wouldn't really say "Poor Nintendo" here though. With the whole issue resolved, it basically amounts to more exposure for the game and that's always a good thing

 

This is about artistic freedom and freedom of conscience. Nintendo's right to not include something is more important than anyone's desire for it to be included. It doesn't matter to me whether it's about race, sexual orientation or whatever, the author of any fiction or software retains the right to design it how they want.

 

Secondly, this is a problem with globalisation. Just because gay marriage is sweeping the West, doesn't mean Japan is under any obligation to accept it. If gay marriage is not legal in Japan, then of course their games won't reflect it. The backlash about this just reinforces the idea that Westerners can't accept Japanese games as they are.

 

Exactly! Well said Thankfully though this is a scenario where Nintendo are not being forced to make changes to their game and the dev team aren't being asked to change their vision, but instead are given a starting point for a potential sequel (Yoshio Sakamoto is no stranger to including gay overtones in his games - the Wario Ware series alone is proof of that - so it's not like it's something that he wouldn't want to include in a potential sequel...). This statement would've been vetted through NCL before being put out (hence the delay) since it involves discussing a potential unnannounced sequel; which would also mean discussion with the original dev team, who would have to agree to this before such a statement could be put out

Edited May 9, 2014 by Dcubed

[Ronnie]

Secondly, this is a problem with globalisation. Just because gay marriage is sweeping the West, doesn't mean Japan is under any obligation to accept it. If gay marriage is not legal in Japan, then of course their games won't reflect it. The backlash about this just reinforces the idea that Westerners can't accept Japanese games as they are.

 

I assume gay relationships occur in Japan? Not in Tomodachi Life it seems. Forget the marriage can of worms, how hard would it have been for Nintendo to include same sex relationships, this isn't the same as not liking the way developers ended a three part saga, this is basic human interaction.

[Dcubed]

I assume gay relationships occur in Japan? Not in Tomodachi Life it seems. Forget the marriage can of worms, how hard would it have been for Nintendo to include same sex relationships, this isn't the same as not liking the way developers ended a three part saga, this is basic human interaction.

 

Much more than a simple flick of a switch. Like I mentioned earlier, adding in gay marriage would also instigate a need to include features like adoption, civil partnerships and everything that goes along with it (as well as another complete round of QA testing too).

 

It would be a significant investment of time that takes away from the development of Nintendo SPD's games they currently have in production too.

 

It's not really a cultural issue. It's not like there aren't loads of Japanese games with gay characters or target a gay subset (Cho Aniki immediately springs to mind), it just wasn't a priority throughout development and it's a non trivial thing to add in after the game has already been finished now.

[Ashley]

This is about artistic freedom and freedom of conscience. Nintendo's right to not include something is more important than anyone's desire for it to be included. It doesn't matter to me whether it's about race, sexual orientation or whatever, the author of any fiction or software retains the right to design it how they want.

 

Secondly, this is a problem with globalisation. Just because gay marriage is sweeping the West, doesn't mean Japan is under any obligation to accept it. If gay marriage is not legal in Japan, then of course their games won't reflect it. The backlash about this just reinforces the idea that Westerners can't accept Japanese games as they are.

 

Nintendo absolutely has a right to not include something in a game. However, when that game is a life (and by extension relationship) simulator their decision to not include it says far more than "there was no artistic justification for including it".

 

Gay marriage may not be legal in Japan, but gay relationships are not illegal. The positive responses from Japanese fans when it was thought gay relationships were included (apparently just female characters that 'looked like males') shows there is a desire for it, regardless of whether or not gay marriage is legal or not in Japan.

 

On the plus side this fiasco means more exposure for the game. More eyeballs = more potential sales!

 

I know this isn't what you meant, but please be aware that this could be read as "yay we can make money off of people feeling excluded!"

[Dcubed]

I know this isn't what you meant, but please be aware that this could be read as "yay we can make money off of people feeling excluded!"

 

You're right, that isn't what I meant at all. Sorry if I upset you. I just want to see the game do well (hell I just want to see Nintendo do well in general; especially right now when they need it the most) and I'm just trying to look at the bright side of things here.

 

Oh and just for the record, I'm fully supporting of anyone who is LGBTQA. Nothing against anyone who is (hell some people in my own family are openly bi!) and apologies to anyone who I may have upset the other day, that wasn't my intention at all.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Dcubed

[Fierce_LiNk]

Not sure how this sounds, but I didn't even expect Nintendo to include this within the game. It's incredibly naive of them and it's a "typical Nintendo mistake". Life must be very serene in that little bubble of theirs.