UK rail fares up 6+% - Ridiculous or fair?

[jayseven]

Two facets to this.

 

1. This is ridiculous. I can't remember any of my economics a-level, so I'm asking for help to understand this.

 

RPI is Retail Prices Index. My understanding is this is a comparison of how much items cost now compared to last year. The RPI comprises of a bunch of commonly purchased items to try and reflect the reality of how inflation affects the individual. So why is it at all sensible for the government (and associated private rail companies) to use that percentage figure as the basis of their price increase, let alone decide that an extra 3% on top is a 'good' idea? I need help to get my head around this concept, because at the moment it just seems like a greedy "well if everyone else is putting their prices up, then so we will too." It is a move that means many people who commute are looking at the cost of simply getting to and from work taking up to 15% of their earnings.

 

The government Transport Secretary Theresa Villiers said "In the longer term we are determined to get rid of these above-inflation fare rises all together," which just means that eventually the fare increase may just simply fall in line with inflation. We won't say when, and we can't say for sure that inflation in the future will be any more affordable than it is now.

 

2. Is there any cause for complaint?

 

I earn an average wage. Not great, but not minimal, yet I pay 8.5% of my pre-tax wage on train travel alone. That is £1,784 a year.

 

"Put on top of that the cost of childcare - nearly £600 per month - and my bills are nearly £1,600 per month. To some, not much - to me, a lot. I can't even afford to get on the property ladder, so I have to rent.

 

"I don't actually think I could afford to get to work if this keeps going on

 

"Ultimately I will be forced to move to a closer location. The cost of driving to work and parking all day makes it even more expensive to get to work.

 

"Personally, I think people who do travel distances to work should be able to claim it back or get tax breaks if they can prove the expenditure.

 

His argument may be sound (see parentheses after this mini-rant) but he is perhaps a bit entitled. He is essentially saying "I want a house and a wife and kids, and I have to do this thing called work in order to pay for these things, but that's not enough! I want more!"

 

Is it fair to have an above average boat on the river of life and yet still feel like you deserve a bigger engine? The price increase will not put anyone out of their homes. People who are commuting to london will be earning higher wages, in general, so it is a price hike that is affecting those who are more affluent. The price breakdown means that it's not every journey everywhere that is going up that much.

 

(I tried to work out the maths - he earns 21k yet his rent and bills are 19.2k, his childcare is over 7k... so either he's running on a defecit or he's talking about his shared costs as if they're his own. If his partner is earning full-time minimum wage then she'll be getting, what, 13k, leaving around 4k a year for fun and games, minus trains? I don't know!)

 

I'm flailing a bit at the concept of what I'm trying to say, here.

 

All spun from the BBC article "Rail hike of 6.2% sparks angry reaction.

[nightwolf]

I think its disgraceful to rise it further! We already have one of the most expensive public transportation in the world!

 

So, let's break this down, currently to get from my new house (which is a little distance off the train station) it would cost me £20.10 for a round trip journey. Each way takes over an hour. This would also include the cost of parking my car, because, yes, they also charge for this too. So it would be more than £20 at present for a day.

 

Park and ride is £11 a week, this includes a cctv covered parking and a bus to and from the area to right outside my work.

 

Let's also put this into comparison that I top up my car at £20 a week, so even if you take into the cost of £11 and £20 a week, it still doesn't compare to £20 every day for 5 days.

 

It's not a good way to go about things, I know things cost and in the end its going to happen anyway, but its a rising cost people just don't need right now.

 

Here in NYC the flat fee for single fares is 2.50$, it works amazingly well, no matter how far you travel on the subway, it's 2.50$. I love it. Prague, system was based on time, you paid so little for about 3 hours travel. Why we don't have a system like that I don't understand...off-peak, on-peak, oh wait, your ticket won't let you take this route. Its absolute crap. I used to hate taking trains before I got my car (I used to travel to liverpool/manchester/sheffield a lot, mostly every weekend). Bleh. Just no.

 

/ramble

 

Sorry.

[Goafer]

Meh. People will piss and moan, then they'll continue using the service as they always have done and nothing will change.

 

I also don't agree with the whole "I can't afford to travel" nonsense. There are cheaper ways to travel, for example a moped or small bike. Or cycle if you're in a big city/close enough to work. What people are really saying is "I can't afford to travel in the comfort I am accustomed to".

 

Me personally, I don't care. I have a car. When I can't afford to run that every day, I'll cycle to work.

[Mr-Paul]

To me, there is no such thing as public transport in this country any more. Thanks Maggie.

 

The train fare rises are ridiculous. The goverment say it is to fund improvements in the rail network - something they should be paying for anyway in my opinion.

 

A public transport system should be affordable for all, and cheaper than other methods such as driving. The reality is, you pay a premium to sit on a packed, stinky train.

 

Even worse for me though are buses. In my area most the buses which run through where I live have been cut, leaving people stranded, and cost a fortune - since when has £6.50 represented good value for two 15 minute journeys?

 

The only place where the authorities have got transport pricing right in this country is London. Same price for any length bus journey, and the tube is nice and cheap. Public transport that is actually used by the people as it is cheap and convenient. If you start charging six quid a bus journey, people will stop using it, and then they use the fact people aren't using it enough to justify a price rise.

[Cube]

Public transport will still be extremely cheap. Especially compared to driving lessons, a car, tax, insurance, petrol and maintenance.

[Ramar]

I wouldn't mind as much if we had a great train service, however they're always late, cramped and dirty. They know people need the service so they milk the shit out of them. It's a disgrace.

 

In fact that's a lie, I do mind. It's already far too much. When I get the train to football if I go on the weekend the same two stop journey costs £5 less than it does on a weekday. Same train, same network, same station, same amount of stops. Now we don't just have peak and off-peak, there's super off-peak a whole list of ticket restrictions just to complicate your journey.

 

I don't think the fares should increase with inflation either, why doesn't anywhere consider reducing prices anymore? Everything only goes one way, up. If I was running a shitty service I would think charging less for it to get more people to use it. Train companies are cunts.

 

That mess sounded more coherent in my head.

[Rummy]

I think it is pretty shoddy. Plus my area's covered by SouthEastern who, for a reason I forget, are able to increase fares more than most other companies(I think one or two others have the same privilege). I'm just going to be sad next year when my YP railcard finally expires beyond use

 

Related, I guess, I was having a similar conversation with people at the weekend. My friend was telling me to come back for the weekend from Durham he's looking at £30 each way; £60. I think that's quite a lot! For just under £100, he's just gone to Poland! That strikes me as weird. Admittedly it's probably closer to £110 with his airport travel, but that makes london cost 10% of his travel to Poland. It seems weird.

 

Thing is, as mr-paul said, apparently London isn't too badly priced. I don't know as I don't have anything to compare it to, but I guess I never understand quite how much the fares go up by each year.

 

(also jay, I tried the maths too and worked it out exactly similar to you, it doesn't add up to me)

 

I wouldn't mind as much if we had a great train service, however they're always late, cramped and dirty. They know people need the service so they milk the shit out of them. It's a disgrace.

 

This is true. The service can be truly shocking sometimes.

[bob]

I was told that if your train is more than 10 mins delayed, you can reclaim your money back. However, this is not stricly true. Firstly it depends on which compant is running the train. Virgin will give you your money back (i think), but for CrossCountry, it has to be 30 mins delayed, and you'll get 50% of your money back. It has to be 60 mins delayed or more to get the whole thing back. 60 mins! A whole hour delayed before they even consider giving you your money back! Ridiculous.

 

However, even if it is this bad, i would recommend everyone to attempt to claim, whatever their journey, if it is delayed. The more people who try might make them realise they need to do something about the late trains.

[Cube]

They've announced two price rises now (the initial 3.1% and the new 3%)...yet I can't seem to find when these prices come into effect.

[Ramar]

They've announced two price rises now (the initial 3.1% and the new 3%)...yet I can't seem to find when these prices come into effect.

 

National increases always take place on the 1st of January.

[Charlie]

If I go into the centre of Glasgow from where I live in Partick (around 6km away) I have a few options.

 

1) Walk, will take 45-60 mins depend where I want to go

2) Cycle, 10-15 mins perhaps over very major roads? Run the (big) risk of getting something nicked from your bike

3) Bus, gotta admit, no idea. Buses are seen as a bit 'jakey' in Glasgow

4) Underground, takes about 10 minutes depending on how long you have to wait. £2.40 return

5) Train, without a rail card is £1.60 return for exactly the same journey as the Underground. Same start and finish point. With a young persons rail card it is £1.05 return.

 

I would say that is great value. Going to, say, Paisley, which is quite a bit out of the city will cost £3/4 return. Stirling, however, £11 return off-peak. Edinburgh £14.50 off-peak?

 

Stirling takes 45 mins on the express, Edinburgh takes 1hr 15 mins.

 

Shorter journeys trains are great value, as soon as you go out the city they are extortionate.

[Gizmo]

If I go into the centre of Glasgow from where I live in Partick (around 6km away) I have a few options.

 

1) Walk, will take 45-60 mins depend where I want to go

2) Cycle, 10-15 mins perhaps over very major roads? Run the (big) risk of getting something nicked from your bike

3) Bus, gotta admit, no idea. Buses are seen as a bit 'jakey' in Glasgow

4) Underground, takes about 10 minutes depending on how long you have to wait. £2.40 return

5) Train, without a rail card is £1.60 return for exactly the same journey as the Underground. Same start and finish point. With a young persons rail card it is £1.05 return.

 

I would say that is great value. Going to, say, Paisley, which is quite a bit out of the city will cost £3/4 return. Stirling, however, £11 return off-peak. Edinburgh £14.50 off-peak?

 

Stirling takes 45 mins on the express, Edinburgh takes 1hr 15 mins.

 

Shorter journeys trains are great value, as soon as you go out the city they are extortionate.

 

The bus I get (44) from Woodlands - Scotstoun is £1.85 for a 20minute single journey.

[Fierce_LiNk]

The rise is pretty shit. I've had quite a lot of experience with using trains, and it is just so pricey for what it actually is and what you get. I refuse to get the train going into London now and prefer to get the National Express, which the majority of the time is cheaper.

 

Wales is poooooor for trains. The majority of the carriages have not had any work done to them for decades, no modernisation. They are the same trains that were probably used when I was born, no exaggeration. The times (except going into Cardiff) are poor, there's never a guarantee of a seat, the prices are too high, meh. Plus, the routes that you have to take to get to certain places is laughable. To get to this one school I was working at for a week, I needed to get two trains, the first at 5:55 and then a taxi to get there for 8:30. It's nothing more than a 35 journey by car...

 

I feel sympathy for these people. It is expensive. It is a rip-off for the most part. There is no real advantage in getting the train.

[Cube]

The trains in North Wales are quite frequent. You can get on Arriva trains (which are decent) or fancy Virgin trains.

 

Although that's probably because there is only one line each way.

[MoogleViper]

Although that's probably because there is only one line each way.

 

 

From Aberystwyth there's one line all the way to Birmingham.

 

It costs £60 (on a cheao day/time) to go from Chesterfield to Aberystwyth. Frankly it shouldn't be both quicker and cheaper, for one person, to travel in a car than on a train. And that's before we get onto the practicalities.

[Cube]

I didn't even knew there were trains in mid Wales.

[Ramar]

Another thing, the other day I parked my car at the train station, it was after 10am so it cost me £3.00 all day parking. Fair price, you pay about that at a town centre or shopping centre. Had I parked before 10am, £7.00 for all day parking. A £4, 130% increase in price to park at the train station before 10am. How do they get away with that..

[bob]

I didn't even knew there were trains in mid Wales.

 

I didn't even know there were people in mid Wales.

[jayseven]

Oz = cheaper car shit. Plus most places (i.e. westfield, almost psuenemic with shopping centres around here) offer free parking for the first 90 mins or so.

[MoogleViper]

I didn't even know there were people in mid Wales.

 

There aren't any more...

 

 

...I moved back to England.

[Jimbob]

The journey i take daily to get to work varies on price on a daily basis. There is this thing some conductors call a "cheap" day, where train fares (well, a return from where i live to work on 2 trains) are £8 a return on a Tuesday and Thursday. Other days, at the same time the price is £10.10 for the same journey.

 

I did some research into this, and found the £10.10 price is for peaktimes between 7am and 8am. Not for the times i travel, i'm in the process of getting a refund (i kept all my tickets because i thought the prices were wrong). Now i get the cheaper rate because everytime one of these conductors tries to charge more and claims the price was a "cheap" day price, i show a Monday ticket and get the cheaper rate. Stupid conductors try to get more money out of you by changing the clock on the machines, keep an eye on that guys and gals.

 

I used to have a travel pass, but i lost it. Arriva want to charge £15 for a replacement, which they can kack off. For a weeks travel, it costs £35 with a pass.

 

These price rises are stupid, they rose the price in January with the promise of more reliable trains and more frequent trains. I've yet to see either happening. The train i get from Cardiff to Ty Glas (where i work) breaks down often. Recently, there has been a collapse by central which is stopping all trains from going from Central to Queen Street (both in Cardiff). Do they offer free transport for disabled persons, no. They expect you to walk to Queen Street to get on a train to another station to transfer to a different station to get the train you need to get to work. Which is now running once every 2 hours.

 

Reliable, no. Cost effective = No.

[Ganepark32]

The price increase isn't as high in Scotland apparently but it doesn't really matter. Apart from either the late night or early morning trains after going to the pub/having a night out with friends in Dundee, I've stopped getting the train completely as it's just far too expensive.

 

Used to take it to Uni every morning with my Young Person's railcard but when they told me I couldn't use it on a train at 9.45am as they couldn't do 'off-peak' tickets until after 10am (despite their passenger information on the walls of the station saying it could be used after 9.15am) and I had to pay £13 for a single ticket, with another £5 something to get a single back in the evening, I just stopped using them altogether. Even pointing out the person was wrong didn't change anything. Thankfully the bus is half the price anyway.

 

Really don't understand the need to keep increasing fares when its well established that the trains are often delayed/late and overcrowded. The government keep saying that the money is going to improving the network and the service but it doesn't seem to be the case from what people say. If I wasn't using the trains, these price increases would hardly make me want to from January.

[gaggle64]

To me, exorbitant ticket prices are an extension of the general mismanagement of the various franchises operating the railways, which continuously seems to produce a heady mix of short-sighted choices and moon logic economics. This morning I read FirstGroup won the bidding for the west coast line operation, by offering twice the cash Virgin was on top massive investment and improvements. Great if they can deliver, but this wouldn't be the first time things have been fouled up by a company who overbid itself to rail managers not asking enough questions.

[Platty]

SouthEastern trains are amazingly crap and I can't believe how they get away with putting up the prices as much as they do every year.

 

I live in London Zone 4 which means it currently costs me £160 a month in travel for a 5 minute bus ride and 30 minute train journey twice a day. It's not as bad as some who live further out for sure but to me that is still a big chunk out of my wage to get me to work across London. I have no other options on the table. Cycling would take far too long from South East London to Central and quite frankly I don't feel it's safe. Using the car is a no no. Again it would take far too long due to traffic and cost shed loads in congestion charge fees and parking fees.

 

I wouldn't mind the train fare going up if it actually IMPROVED the service of SouthEastern. But they haven't changed since it was connex. Fed up with the overcrowding and last minute cancellations and constant engineering works. I'm surprised they kept it together for the Olympics getting everyone to Greenwich and Woolwich. Bunch of cowboys.

 

/rant

[jayseven]

Stupid conductors try to get more money out of you by changing the clock on the machines, keep an eye on that guys and gals.

Dude. You need to highlight this to the company they work for. That's not legit practice.