Sexism

[Dante]

why in this day and age is sexism so hard to get rid of?

 

Two minor examples:

 

UbiSoft:

 

“Almost every single game in our lineup is a result of a ranking system that we put in front of these girls, (asking) ‘What’s interesting to you?’ These girls love customization, they love the creative aspects of ‘Fashion Designer,’ and the social aspects of showing your friends what you’ve created. Whereas boys are the opposite — they’re very interested in action. You can’t sell the same game to both of them, as a rule.” - Ubisoft senior vice president Tony Key

 

“Girls want this because they’re told to want this, because they think they should, and that’s what their friends are getting. We gender-label things,” she says. “I’m a girl so I should enjoy shopping and cooking and getting a manicure and there’s nothing wrong with that. There’s nothing wrong with a guy enjoying that, either.” - Karen Shanor, a neuropsychologist based in Washington D.C.

 

IGN: 9. STRONG FEMALE LEAD CHARACTER = EDGY, CLEVER AND DESIRABLE

 

Well, sometimes this is the case – Jade from Beyond Good & Evil, the old Lara Croft (from circa 1996 or thereabouts) and Samus Aran from Metroid all spring to mind; even your character from Portal – sometimes stoic, always tough and entertaining. But lately, there's been a resurgence in the 'strong female lead character' category, and we get the feeling that this isn't about sexual equality or women's lib. It's about boobs and ass and forced sexual equality. It's manipulative, in fact. She might be 'one of the boys', but she's still eye-candy and catwalk-perfect.

 

This is your fault.

 

Take Mirror's Edge's lead character, Faith; Asian to appeal to the Asian markets, female to soften up the lads and potentially sell to a female audience too. How about Elika from Prince of Persia? That's not clever design - that's clever marketing. There's a big difference. The Final Fantasy series has had its share of strong female characters, like Yuna in X-2 and now XIII. Again, it's a deliberate move (particularly X-2, which aimed at a female market with fashion-based equipment and magic-slotting).

 

Lara Croft still kicks around, as does Samus. But alongside those two comes Alyx Vance (Half-Life 2), Joanna Dark (Perfect Dark), Rayne (BloodRayne), The Boss (MGS), Zoe and April (Dreamfall: The Longest Journey), Jill, Claire and Ada (Resident Evil series), Elika (Prince of Persia) and the list goes on. It's not clever anymore; it's not special. It's become a bad cliché that is as predictable as it is ultimately degrading. Let's stop pretending that's it's still a unique feature.

 

Worst Recent Offenders:

Resident Evil 5

Mirror's Edge

Prince of Persia

[Letty]

Why is it sexist for a woman to be in a game?

 

'There's a woman in this ga-'

 

'FUCKING SEXIST!!! '

[nightwolf]

Why is it sexist for a woman to be in a game?

 

'There's a woman in this ga-'

 

'FUCKING SEXIST!!! '

 

Hear hear!

 

As soon as there's any form of leaning towards females being the dominant, there's outcries of sexism..

 

Give it a break. Let girls be in games already and not as half dressed sluts either..

[Ashley]

Even if its not 'perfect' its progress. These things take time. Strong and hot (as well as still existing in other media anyway) is a start. Like femme fetales of the 1940's. Its not perfect, but its a start.

 

Besides its all open to interpretation. While the (male) writers of IGN may see Lara as reinforcing negative stereotypes female audiences may see her as a positive example. Besides, IGN are themselves being sexist in putting little stock in the ability for women to negotiate their reading of Lara. They may think 'okay so she is designed to appeal to males but she is a strong, confident and successful woman so you have to give her that.' Its the Spice Girls effect :p

 

Furthermore, other than Mario how realistic is the representation of men in video games?

[Eenuh]

Hear hear!

 

As soon as there's any form of leaning towards females being the dominant, there's outcries of sexism..

 

Give it a break. Let girls be in games already and not as half dressed sluts either..

 

I think that last point is the actual problem. They often don't really look like girls, but sexy dolls with guns and whatever. Or you have the complete opposite, and they're pretty, helpless creatures that constantly need to be saved or something.

I guess it's hard for game publishers to find the right balance... but it all has to do with attracting a bigger audience anyway.

 

 

I'm more annoyed with the presumptions (or assumptions? don't know) that all girls like customising stuff, collecting things, sharing things and all those things. I guess I'm not a girl then, because I usually don't like to make my own things, and I definitely don't share it, haha.

It's true that girls are just being told to like these things, while honestly it'd be perfectly fine for them to like more action based games as well (as is shown on this forum I think). =)

[ReZourceman]

why in this day and age is sexism so hard to get rid of?

 

Word.

 

If the women just stayed in the kitchen then there'd be no one to complain.

[nightwolf]

Even if its not 'perfect' its progress. These things take time. Strong and hot (as well as still existing in other media anyway) is a start. Like femme fetales of the 1940's. Its not perfect, but its a start.

 

Besides its all open to interpretation. While the (male) writers of IGN may see Lara as reinforcing negative stereotypes female audiences may see her as a positive example. Besides, IGN are themselves being sexist in putting little stock in the ability for women to negotiate their reading of Lara. They may think 'okay so she is designed to appeal to males but she is a strong, confident and successful woman so you have to give her that.' Its the Spice Girls effect :p

 

Furthermore, other than Mario how realistic is the representation of men in video games?

 

I wasn't saying about perfect, god knows we need some imagination for some things, but everytime I go to pick up a game with a strong female lead I seem to find myself looking at a half naked woman. I think the only game that's not happened is ''Beyond good and evil'' proof that it's already there, it just needs developing.

 

I'm also quite taken aback by girls like sharing etc, as though as girl gamers we are only destined to play games that make your puppy bark or play make-up classes.

Its like somebody said in my class for a presentation ''Females tend to gear towards fan fiction, whereas males go for fan art'' You can't just place a whole sex into one catergory! It doesn't work like that. Which is probably why were pumped with crappy doggy and make-up games all the time, rather than real games.

 

I suppose you could call it the spice girl effect, but spice girls promoted being confident..not fighting against another girl in bikinis..

[MoogleViper]

Hear hear!

 

As soon as there's any form of leaning towards females being the dominant, there's outcries of sexism..

 

Give it a break. Let girls be in games already and not as half dressed sluts either..

 

Yeah but don't forget, although it is quickly changing the majority of gamers are still male. Especially the more "hardcore*" gamers. So therefore the main character is more likely to be male.

 

And as for the half dressed sluts, that appeals to women as well as men. Take a look at most women's adverts, they contain sexy women.

 

*I use this term to mean people who game more frequently rather than just playing the odd game.

[Ashley]

Yeah but don't forget, although it is quickly changing the majority of gamers are still male. Especially the more "hardcore*" gamers. So therefore the main character is more likely to be male.

 

And as for the half dressed sluts, that appeals to women as well as men. Take a look at most women's adverts, they contain sexy women.

 

*I use this term to mean people who game more frequently rather than just playing the odd game.

 

Half naked chicks in adverts (for women's products) are designed to sell an ideal, not turn women on. i.e. they're designed to make women think "I should look like that...through buying these products" not "I wanna bang her"

 

(not that I agree with this message but thats the generally accepted reason for these false ideals of women in advertising)

[Eenuh]

Half naked chicks in adverts (for women's products) are designed to sell an ideal, not turn women on. i.e. they're designed to make women think "I should look like that...through buying these products" not "I wanna bang her"

 

(not that I agree with this message but thats the generally accepted reason for these false ideals of women in advertising)

 

True, plus it's actually not something women -like- to see. Mostly because of those false ideals they think they are meant to reach but simply can't.

 

It's why Dove put out that advertising campaign where they used normal women; women with more curves, freckles on their skin an the like. I really like those ads, as they show a way more realistic image of women and doesn't make me feel bad about myself. =P

[MoogleViper]

Half naked chicks in adverts (for women's products) are designed to sell an ideal, not turn women on. i.e. they're designed to make women think "I should look like that...through buying these products" not "I wanna bang her"

 

(not that I agree with this message but thats the generally accepted reason for these false ideals of women in advertising)

 

Oh I know that. But if a girl is playing the main character then I'd say the same idea applies. They'd rather control someone strong and fit than someone fat and unhealthy.

 

I'd rather play a main character that I can admire. (In a sort of computer game way, not some over-obsessed maniac way)

[Ashley]

True, plus it's actually not something women -like- to see. Mostly because of those false ideals they think they are meant to reach but simply can't.

 

It's why Dove put out that advertising campaign where they used normal women; women with more curves, freckles on their skin an the like. I really like those ads, as they show a way more realistic image of women and doesn't make me feel bad about myself. =P

 

Oh no I know. The advertising industry has many flaws.

 

Oh I know that. But if a girl is playing the main character then I'd say the same idea applies. They'd rather control someone strong and fit than someone fat and unhealthy.

 

I'd rather play a main character that I can admire. (In a sort of computer game way, not some over-obsessed maniac way)

 

Fat Princess?

[MoogleViper]

True, plus it's actually not something women -like- to see. Mostly because of those false ideals they think they are meant to reach but simply can't.

 

It's why Dove put out that advertising campaign where they used normal women; women with more curves, freckles on their skin an the like. I really like those ads, as they show a way more realistic image of women and doesn't make me feel bad about myself. =P

 

But whether it's same sex or not people like looking at attractive people. I'd be less inclined to buy a pair of boxers if the guy on the picture had a belly that drooped over the waistband.

 

And the Dove adverts work because it's a refreshing change from all the false ideas as you say. But I doubt if all companies used that approach, then one company started to use attractive women then I bet they would become more popular.

 

Fat Princess?

 

Well I've never heard of that before. But I'm guessing it's about a fat princess. So it's a refreshing change. But it sort of relates to what I said about the Dove adverts.

[jayseven]

wtf -- freaking FEMINISTS EVERYWHERE!

 

Both male and female representation in games, adverts and movies are used as means to an ends. They are supposed to be symbols, representations of an idea or aspect that someone somewhere is trying to sell to the audience. There are half-naked ladies in Lynx adverts, and half-naked men in whateverthatsmellystuffforgirlsis adverts (and I don't remember which advert I'm talking about because it wasn't designed to be memorable to people like me, who are not sexually interested in men), there are 'hot' girls in games and 'hot' guys in games. Do you think characters like Dante or the Gears of War guys are at all representative of the male build or person? Do you think it's fair to complain about games being sexist when you can't provide a list of evidence, and when most of the games have overly musclar or hardcore guys are the lead roles? Who do they appeal to, and why? Man crushes and sex appeal for the girls watching their boyfriends play the games, of course. Feel the irony, or ignore it?

 

Anything and everything is sexist. But if you start thinking that the way things look is any representation of the way things are, then you're a fool and you deserve to fall for all the advertiser's traps and shell out money because the adver was designed to sucker you in, and you fell for it.

 

BAH!

[Dan_Dare]

going back to Dante's post, I think it's important to note that IGN are a bunch of artless, talent starved hacks with about as much journalistic credability as a work experience boy who does tv listing work in the Metro.

[Aimless]

I'm more annoyed with the presumptions (or assumptions? don't know) that all girls like customising stuff, collecting things, sharing things and all those things. I guess I'm not a girl then, because I usually don't like to make my own things, and I definitely don't share it, haha.

Going by that criteria I'm far more feminine than you.

 

To be fair to the games industry, it's rubbish and making male characters as well. I mean let's look at what kind of role models we have to look up to:

 

That's right, an impossibly thick-necked space marine that likes to say, "Eat shit and die!" Inspiring stuff.

 

Poor female characters in games annoy me, sure, but so do most characters, regardless of gender.

[Dante]

good idea for making this a new topic Shorty/Ashley?

[chairdriver]

Do you think it's sexist that girls are allowed to wear ear studs at my school, but boys aren't?

[MoogleViper]

There are many sexist things in the world, on both sides, so it evens out. There are just too many people that like to jump up and scream sexism all the time. (And yes I would say it's the majority women.)

[Ashley]

good idea for making this a new topic Shorty/Ashley?

 

Not me. I am, aptly enough, doing an assignment about masculinity.

 

Do you think it's sexist that girls are allowed to wear ear studs at my school, but boys aren't?

 

Yes. I always found it sexist at work men (in charge) had to wear ties whereas women could just wear something more casual. Theres bits of sexism everywhere if you look for it.

 

(not that I minded too much as I look awesome in a shirt and tie)

[Dante]

Not me. I am, aptly enough, doing an assignment about masculinity.

 

Nice :p

 

Dan Dare's post is need to be moving into this one.

[chairdriver]

Yeah, my piercing adds to my appearance threefold, and it just feels really unfair that its unquestionable that girls are allowed to wear whatever jewelry they want, where it's a massive deal if boys do so.

 

I want to say that I'm considering a sex change, and see what they say to that.

[Ganepark32]

How many women does it take to change a light bulb?

 

feminist: That's not funny.

 

Joking aside, I think even though there have been women who have moved the so called establishment along so that women are treated more of as individuals, there will always be the stereotype regardless of how society changes, which is quite a depressing thought as it says that there'll always be people out there who adhere to such ludicrous ideals of what a woman should be, and even what a man should be. Many people, when you mention sexism, think of how it affects women but it's there for men. We see women being brainwashed with what they should be, should do with their lives and what they should look like through magazines, tv adverts, etc. but it's the exact same for men.

 

Yeh, I was trying to come up with something intelligible to add to this conversation but I seem to have hit a brick wall mentally and come up with crap.

 

@ Chair - with the school you're at, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to kick you out if you actually went through with it. They're pretty narrowminded there.

[bluey]

Do you think it's sexist that girls are allowed to wear ear studs at my school, but boys aren't?

nah, that's just homophobic.

EDIT: actually!! my secondary school ended up banning all earrings because of complaints from the guys... at first girls could wear studs but not dangley earrings 'cause they might get ripped out by.... monsters or something (and they look horrendous on school girls... can you say "high school prostitution"? oh no i guess not, you're not japanese...) but when some guys who wanted to wear studs piped up that it was unfair that girls could and guys couldnt wear studs... they just banned all piercings...

 

to summarize: you should COMPLAIN!!!!

 

people are either waaaaaay too paranoid about being P.C and pissing people off.. or they're just OUT to alienate folk.... y'all.

[EEVILMURRAY]

Yes. I always found it sexist at work men (in charge) had to wear ties whereas women could just wear something more casual. Theres bits of sexism everywhere if you look for it.

 

(not that I minded too much as I look awesome in a shirt and tie)

I concur, a recent example I've noticed while watching the snooker is the ref, when male is full white shirt etc. When the tasty lass ref is on, it's a casual top and sparkly necklace with a suit jacket on top.

 

AND! Women getting a 45 second headstart in the Krypton Factor assault course.