Wii General Discussion

[LostOverThere]

I agree that Retro are the right developers for Metroid, and I also think that they will definitely return to make more Metroid titles in the future. With that being said, I suspect they're having a good time making other things. I doubt their next project will be Metroid.

[Fused King]

Has Retro Studios already held their GDC Conference?

[david.dakota]

After Other M, I'll wager Metroid is on a hiatus for 5 years or so.

 

I doubt we'll hear anything of Retro's next project until next E3, actually. I can't see they can get a game out of the door so soon after DKC Returns, so 2012 seems a good fit. And judging by this job advertisement, they're planning a game on Wii... I don't think we're seeing a new home console until Easter 2013 at the earliest.

 

A few more positions are being advertised too, out of interest,

Edited March 3, 2011 by david.dakota

[Hero-of-Time]

Has Retro Studios already held their GDC Conference?

 

Here's the live blog from GoNintendo. If you can't be bothered to read it all I have put the IGN summary underneath the live blog.

 

8:56 Panel should start in a few minutes

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 8:56

8:59 the entire panel is wearing red ties. I'm not kdding!

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 8:59

9:03 The panel is introducing itself. There are 8 people altogether, with a mix of Nintendo/Retro employees

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:03

9:05 The first talks of Donkey Kong Country Returns actually took place back in 2004

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:05

9:06 Nintendo wanted Retro to make Metroid Prime 3 at that time, because Nintendo felt that they couldn't really handle making a Prime style game on their own.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:06

9:07 Donkey Kong County Returns actually started to move ahead in 2008

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:07

9:07 This is when Miyamoto said that he was ready to do another DKC, and asked if there was a studio that could handle the job.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:07

9:08 At this time, Retro was running various experiments on various game ideas. This was also the same time that Retro was experiencing the loss of a few key members of the team.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:08

9:08 This situation allowed for Retro to jump on DKCR right away

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:08

9:11 Originally, all the artists went off in their own directions to experiment with ideas for DKCR in order to see what worked and what didn't. This was a process the team went through a few times. Fun and whimsical nature was very important to the game. 6 months into the project they were still finding things in their designs that fit better with Metroid thank DK.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:11

9:12 The artists had a huge learning curve when going from first-person on Metroid to 2d camera of DKCR. The fixed camera was quite new to Retro, as there is mostly a specific distance of the camera to the controlled characters.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:12

9:12 Metroid's camera system wasn't really right for adapting to DKCR, so a lot had to be changed around.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:12

9:13 The team had a big challenge in making sure two players could pass by each other without clipping issues, and making sure that the passing looked natural.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:13

9:13 Metroid A.I. was involved with the original creation of the game, and helped get the project moving first.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:13

9:14 The team originally jumped a plane to go meet up with Miyamoto for 2 days to discuss what DKCR was going to be. They spent hours talking to Miyamoto about his expectations. Miyamoto said DK was his baby, and Retro better get it right!

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:14

9:15 Miyamoto said animation was extremely important in the project.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:15

9:15 Retro's tools were designed for work on Metroid, not meant for another visually different project.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:15

9:16 The team went through various animation tests to find a different style from Metroid. There was a lot of trial and error in finding the right types of movement for DK.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:16

9:17 Miyamoto said that Donkey Kong's ground pound was very important, and the team talked with Miyamoto at great length about this feature. The first time the team tried to include this feature, they didn't get it right. The controls used to be 1:1 for ground pound, and Miyamoto wasn't really enjoying it.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:17

9:17 The small change from going 1:1 to a more off-set ground pound made it a much more engaging feature, and it felt better for the player.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:17

9:19 Miyamoto was spending time just running left and right to see how DK reacted to turns and stops. This is when Miyamoto saw DK kicking up dust when he skidded to the stop. Miyamoto thought that this looked like DK was blowing on things. Miyamoto wanted them to include this feature. After some experimentation, Retro found how much interactivity this added to the game.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:19

9:20 The first thing Retro did was play through all the original DKC games for research. The team also looked at Wario Land on Virtual Boy for inspiration. There were also other games that were studied, including other Nintendo titles.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:20

9:21 The team realized that they didn't need to overthink the game, they just needed to make it fun.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:21

9:21 Retro wanted people playing the game to have fun just moving around, and animation was quite important to this. Making the basic motions fun was quite important.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:21

9:22 More than 2000 animations in the entire player package, which includes every movement and action DK/Diddy have.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:22

9:23 Nintendo's side of development pushed for multiplayer this time around.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:23

9:24 The original DKC games had tag-out multiplayer, and Nintendo wanted to change this. The lack of multiplayer in DKJB was also another reason to make 2-player possible in DKCR. NSMBW's multiplayer was the final straw, and gave the push to include multiplayer.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:24

9:25 Miyamoto originally wanted to push for single player, but another side of NCL called for multiplayer.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:25

9:26 now the game's camera had to be tuned for single-player and multiplayer. This lead to a dynamic camera that framed the action appropriately. This took a great deal of time to accomplish. Another producer was crushed by small bugs and issues that kept coming up from adding in multiplayer.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:26

9:26 Level design also changed, as the team had to make sure players wouldn't get split up and left behind.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:26

9:27 The team wanted to make sure that players of completely different skill sets could work together and have fun.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:27

9:28 There was a big challenge due to the distance between Retro and Nintendo. Not just physical difference, but the time difference as well.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:28

9:29 The two teams had video conferences all the time. Company employees would visit each other. Bilingual staffers were also important for translating discussions and documents.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:29

9:30 Sometimes the time it took to translate documents would cause details to be lost. Prototyping and sending those projects between the two companies helped a great deal.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:30

9:31 Tanabe was discussing a boss design with the guys at Retro, and Retro were taking notes to send to other dev members in real time. These changes were made as the meetings were actually going on, and prototypes were finished before the discussions even ended.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:31

9:35 The tidal wave level was quite a detailed level in terms of creation. The wave itself was built in slices, but you don't see any seams when playing the game. This took a long time to create. It took a lot of trial and error over a number of months. The waves would, in a sense, turn on and off as the player went through. Tanabe checked out the level and decided that it wasn't quite enough. He wanted wave shelters that you could hide behind, but would also deteriorate as they got pounded with waves.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:35

9:36 Making sure the game is the highest quality you can make it is absolutely vital. Tweaking long the way to reach quality goals was very important.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:36

9:37 The clinging system had to go through various tweaks in order to flow the way it does in the final game. At one point during development they started this system over from scratch.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:37

9:38 The Super Guide feature was a huge hurdle to jump when creating. Testers could record their bugs, and this helped lead to a better Super Guide and game in general.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:38

9:39 After the E3 debut and first hands-on impressions, Retro was really boosted in motivation by the reaction.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:39

9:40 The team created 4 levels for the E3 demo, and they had somewhere around 70 more to do

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:40

9:41 Iwata told the team that he was looking forward to playing the final product with his family, which put even more pressure on Retro.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:41

9:42 The major focus after E3 was putting a big amount of polish on the game.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:42

9:43 Tanabe has been working with Retro since 2001

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:43

9:43 Retro and NCL didn't always work so well together, as it was tough to bring design philosophies together.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:43

9:44 Nintendo doesn't focus too much on making spec sheets for games. At least, not in the beginning of development.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:44

9:44 Nintendo likes to find a core idea for gameplay first. They want this idea to be fun. This leads to a prototype that they build upon that ends up feeling right and being entertaining.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:44

9:45 Once that happens, they really start moving on the actual development.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:45

9:45 Official production doesn't really start until that moment is reached.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:45

9:45 This design process wasn't one that Retro really used back in the day, but now they've come to learn how to work best with NCL.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:45

9:47 NCL feels that Monster Games and Next Level Games works well with NCL's design philosophies. Monster Games has worked on Pilotwings Resort as well.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:47

9:47 Designing a side-scroller is not easy, and it became an overwhelming task for Retro.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:47

9:48 Have pixel-perfect gameplay is extremely important when dealing with platformers.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:48

9:49 Retro didn't realize the amount of work it took to achieve a high level of craftsmanship in side-scrollers. The mount of time it took to make one Metroid room lead to just one level in DKCR.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:49

9:49 Retro wanted to make the environments fun and make sure people weren't just running left to right.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:49

9:49 Retro focused on adding big moments to each level in order to make things feel alive.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:49

9:51 Right near the end of the project, the team was playing the Forest Movers stage, and they were noticing a very minor issue that might impact a very small amount of players. They changed the movement patterns of some objects, but found that this simply didn't work right. This lead to another fix that took place 3 days before the game was finished. It involved changed fundamental code that was key to the entire game.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:51

9:52 The team got a lot of bug reports from testers that were going left instead of right

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:52

9:52 Retro Studios is hiring right now, and they're looking for new employees. They aren't talking about what they're working on.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:52

9:53 The similarities between DKCR and NSMBW do not come from shared assets, as there aren't any

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:53

9:54 Retro wanted to make a game that didn't just get more difficult, but wave that gave a sense of excitement while still ramping up difficulty

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:54

9:55 SAID AS JOKES: Retro wants to rework Doki Doki Panic. They've also been looking at Tingle. Yes, these are both jokes. They also joke about Pokemon Prime.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:55

9:56 Retro are huge Nintendo fans, they love the products, and use Nintendo games as learning tools.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:56

9:58 The team wasn't really focusing on the time trial aspect at first. They were looking at making 'wow' moments in each level.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:58

9:58 the decision for time trial mode came later on

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:58

9:59 it was important to make sure that everyone could enjoy the game at first, and then add in more content like time trials for more hardcore players. Around E3, everyone was trying to see if they could best the times of designers. The team was battling one another with their own time trials.

 

Thursday March 3, 2011 9:59

10:00 Retro saw the appeal of Time Trials in the original DKC series, so they knew it would be good to honor that idea in this new title.

 

 

 

One unlikely game Retro Studios studied while planning Donkey Kong Country Returns was Wario Land for the Virtual Boy -- specifically the separated platforming planes which allowed Wario to switch between background and foreground.

 

After working on dark sci-fi environments for nearly a decade, the design team would occasionally create something that looked too Metroid, but Donkey Kong Country had to be "fun and whimsical," a mantra much repeated during development, so many initial designs were tossed out.

 

With production finished on Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Retro first brought up the idea of working on a Donkey Kong game but were told to make Metroid Prime 3 instead. Kensuke Tanabe said, "We wanted to depend on Retro to make games we couldn't [in Japan]."

 

The wave level, in which tidal waves rise from the background to smash into the screen, took a long time to program. Estimates from the panel of Retro developers ranged from "months" to (hopefully jokingly) "years."

 

Shigeru Miyamoto the creator of Donkey Kong, who Retro refers to fondly as "Master Yoda," told the US developers, "Donkey Kong is my baby and you better get it right!"

 

The Super Guide feature which helps lackluster players complete levels was also used to test and record bugs.

Many bugs came from players running back to the left instead of constantly running to the right; Michael Kelbaugh joked, "We were going to make an addition to the manual that said 'Don't go left.'"

 

Satoru Iwata, president and CEO of Nintendo, told the Retro team "I am looking forward to playing this product with my family and having fun." They checked in with him after the game's release and he confirmed that his wish came true.

 

After simply running back and forth for ten minutes and watching the animations of Donkey Kong turning around, Shigeru Miyamoto told Retro that it seemed like Donkey Kong was "blowing" when he created dust clouds. The "blow" mechanic used in Donkey Kong Country Returns was born from this off-handed remark.

 

After showing a few levels at E3 in the summer of 2010, the team still had to make about 70 more before the game's release in November.

 

Bonus Factoid!

 

Retro (facetiously) claimed that a classic Nintendo game they would like to revive next would be Doki Doki Panic (which was Kensuke Tanabe's first game, and eventually became Super Mario Bros. 2). Members of the panel also joked that they would like to make "Pokemon Prime" and/or work with (infamous Legend of Zelda character) Tingle.

[Jonnas]

Lol at the last paragraph. Could you imagine the fan reaction if Retro Studios' next game was in the Tingle series?

[Ike]

Lol at the last paragraph. Could you imagine the fan reaction if Retro Studios' next game was in the Tingle series?

 

I want a Retro Tingle game.

[RedShell]

I want a Retro Tingle game.

I just want another Tingle game, namely this:

 

[Fierce_LiNk]

 

As much as I enjoyed Other M, I wouldn't really mind if Retro were put back onto console Metroids. Yes, I found Other M more fun than Prime, but I'd still rate it below the 2D ones. That way, we could have 1st-person perfection for those that love it, and 2D perfection for those of us who love that. Other M was a game I think most could enjoy, but was it good enough to be many people's favourite? I liked it, but couldn't really give it a 9 or 10/10. I just think console games in general take themselves too seriously, with all the cutscenes and all.

 

What are the reasons for it not being a 9 or 10/10 game? I would be one of the ones saying it's one of my favourite Wii games. It's probably the closest thing we've had so far to the 2D games but in 3D.

 

Yeah, sales wise. Nintendo no doubt hoped for much better with Other M and it hasn't done what they'd expected.

 

I do, personally, think that Retro Studios are the right developer for the franchise. Maybe people don't want more first person Metroid but you can't deny their quality in almost every aspect (apart from the dreadful multiplayer but we'll ignore that :wink:) and Retro clearly have an eye for making the games. I doubt we'll see them pick it up fully again but I do think that's where it should go. Even though I did really enjoy Other M, the Prime games are just on a completely different level.

 

The Prime games are on another level, because they offer something entirely different. The Prime games are based and centred around exploration, whereas Other M is more story driven. Like I mentioned above, Other M is (in my opinion) closer to the 2D games than the Prime games. But, it's good to have both. The more Metroid we have, in any form, the better. I could do with another Other M, or even a game similar to Prime.

[Grazza]

What are the reasons for it not being a 9 or 10/10 game? I would be one of the ones saying it's one of my favourite Wii games. It's probably the closest thing we've had so far to the 2D games but in 3D.

 

Hard to explain, but it just doesn't feel as though they've really aimed that high, however much fun it is (which is a lot). It feels a bit... "throwaway". Don't get me wrong, it's in my Top 3 Wii Games, but a real 9 or 10/10 game feels different to Other M. Take Metroid Prime, for instance, which is in many ways less fun than Other M, but feels far more epic, has immense graphical detail and an intense soundtrack. Or, to compare to something on the same console, rather than the same series, Other M doesn't feel as ambitious as Super Mario Galaxy.

 

Let's say you download a game for WiiWare or DSi Ware for £10. It might be brilliant, but you wouldn't expect it to be up there with Mario or Zelda. Metroid, on the other hand, could be up there with those two, but Other M feels like a game that's aimed to be £20. A great £20 game, but still £20.

 

To be more specific, I feel a 10/10 console Metroid would have nailed all the issues like analogue vs d-pad control, or 1st- vs 3rd-person perspective etc, difficult as they may be. Whilst I agree it's the best attempt at translating the 2D games into 3D, it doesn't give me the same feeling of brilliance as them.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Hard to explain, but it just doesn't feel as though they've really aimed that high, however much fun it is (which is a lot). It feels a bit... "throwaway". Don't get me wrong, it's in my Top 3 Wii Games, but a real 9 or 10/10 game feels different to Other M. Take Metroid Prime, for instance, which is in many ways less fun than Other M, but feels far more epic, has immense graphical detail and an intense soundtrack. Or, to compare to something on the same console, rather than the same series, Other M doesn't feel as ambitious as Super Mario Galaxy.

 

Why are we comparing this to Prime, though? It's not trying to be like Prime, except for perhaps mimicking the first person viewpoint for some sections. It's much more comparable to something like Metroid Fusion than Prime.

 

Also, Prime was much more epic in scale because the game took place firstly across a Space Station and then across a Planet. Other M all took place within a Bottle Ship. (again, that's why its comparable with Fusion).

 

Super Mario Galaxy is done solely by Nintendo, whereas Nintendo recruited Team Ninja for this. Is this their first Wii game? Not sure. But, Mario Galaxy was always going to be much more ambitious, because its a leading title for the platform. It's Nintendo's baby. Its quite strange how it was the other way around for the Cube though, with Prime leading the charge.

 

Let's say you download a game for WiiWare or DSi Ware for £10. It might be brilliant, but you wouldn't expect it to be up there with Mario or Zelda. Metroid, on the other hand, could be up there with those two, but Other M feels like a game that's aimed to be £20. A great £20 game, but still £20.

 

I do see what you're getting at, but I don't agree. The story is well told, the cutscenes are well animated and they nailed the gameplay and graphical look. Also, the soundtrack is quite under-rated. It deserves to be full price. However, there seems to be a culture on the Wii for people to buy games when they're reduced, rather than straight away. Except when those two games are...Mario and Zelda.

 

To be more specific, I feel a 10/10 console Metroid would have nailed all the issues like analogue vs d-pad control, or 1st- vs 3rd-person perspective etc, difficult as they may be. Whilst I agree it's the best attempt at translating the 2D games into 3D, it doesn't give me the same feeling of brilliance as them.

 

It did nail all of these, though. Maybe it's down to interpretation, but the controls were good, and the switching between 1st and 3rd person was seamless, I thought. Perhaps the only criticism was possibly being unable to use missiles in third person viewpoint, but that's as far as it goes. It pretty much played like the old school sidescrolling Metroid games with the d-pad, which was great. It didn't need the analogue stick.

[Kav]

I have to agree with Fierce Link, the game was great at what it set out to do and that was play like a 2D Metroid.

 

If you played this game trying to use the d-pad as you would use an analogue stick then you were simply playing this in the wrong way.

If you used used it as you would use d-pad in the 2D games then it was just sublime... as was the transition from 3rd to 1st person views.

 

The game is a very worthy entry in the Metroid franchise!

[Grazza]

Probably not worth its own thread, but here's a (rather flimsy) rumour that the Wii 2 will be announced at E3: http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/rumour-nintendo-to-announce-wii-2-in-june-933913

[Fused King]

Probably not worth its own thread, but here's a (rather flimsy) rumour that the Wii 2 will be announced at E3: http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/rumour-nintendo-to-announce-wii-2-in-june-933913

 

However, digging a little bit deeper, the fact that the site goes on to list rumoured Wii 2 specs such as a built-in Blu-ray drive, a superfast quad-core processor and a built-in projector suggests that the source of the rumours may well not be as close to Nintendo's top brass as Zeldainformer.com might hope.

 

I think they're on to something.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Fused King

[Burny]

However, digging a little bit deeper, the fact that the site goes on to list rumoured Wii 2 specs such as a built-in Blu-ray drive, a superfast quad-core processor and a built-in projector suggests that the source of the rumours may well not be as close to Nintendo's top brass as Zeldainformer.com might hope.

 

I can't see anything that has to do with Nintendo's hardware's processing power being called "superfast" by recent standards in the next couple of years. :p

 

After all, they could just take hardware comparable to the PS360, stick in a graphics card with an average amount of steam and have a decent Full-HD machine, that could be sold profitably. If anybody's not taking Epic's expectations for the next generation's consoles hardware too seriously, it's Nintendo.

 

And if anyone doesn't want to take the steam off their own brand-new handheld, by announcing a new home console in the middle of this year, I'd say it's probably Nintendo, too.

[darksnowman]

Probably not worth its own thread, but here's a (rather flimsy) rumour that the Wii 2 will be announced at E3: http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/rumour-nintendo-to-announce-wii-2-in-june-933913

 

Flimsy? No way! It makes perfect sense.

 

Gamecube dies > Twilight Princess < Wii is born

ergo:

Wii dies > Skyward Sword < Wii successor is born

 

Overlapping a Zelda game onto the death and birth of consoles is how we've always been able to tell when Nintendo is bringing out a new machine!

[killer kirby]

I for some reason I don't see the next system unveiling until 2013, with a early 2014 release. It's all about the 3DS for the next couple of months, once that has sorted itself into the market, I think Nintendo will continue concentrating on both systems just like they did with the DS and Wii.

[triforcemario]

 

Reggie in his younger days... HIS BODY HAS ALWAYS BEEN READY

[david.dakota]

I for some reason I don't see the next system unveiling until 2013, with a early 2014 release. It's all about the 3DS for the next couple of months, once that has sorted itself into the market, I think Nintendo will continue concentrating on both systems just like they did with the DS and Wii.

 

I'm with this. Microsoft are hiring Xbox hardware staff at the moment, some are suggesting this indicates a new Xbox will be with us in two years. Sony will not want to let Microsoft get such a head start this time and so will release around this time; Nintendo still see Sony as their competitor and will aim for Sony's timings.

[Fused King]

 

Reggie in his younger days... HIS BODY HAS ALWAYS BEEN READY

 

OR ELSE YOU WILL DIE!

This is your new avatar!

[RedShell]

OR ELSE YOU WILL DIE!

This is your new avatar!

No, this is my new avatar!

[Fused King]

Beyond genious!

[triforcemario]

No, this is my new avatar!

I want your babies. ALL OF THEM.

[LostOverThere]

No, this is my new avatar!

[triforcemario]

[Retro_Link]

IGN Reggie Video Interview Part 2

 

http://uk.wii.ign.com/articles/115/1154484p1.html

 

Not a great deal in this one, but hey, it's Reggie.

 

I thought the 'does the software maintain it's value' question/comment quite interesting.

I'd say that games like Kirby's Epic Yarn don't particularly hold their value... and yet they are priced exactly the same as any other First Party Titles?

Edited March 12, 2011 by Retro_Link