Ashley Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 "If women can transform into men and men can become women, and we can choose to sleep with everyone, then maybe gender doesn't even exist anymore." Just finished reading a book which compiled a series of essays on Sex and the City, along with some on Desperate Housewives, general discussions with colleagues and friends and combine this with recent crap around these parts and an outcry for 'proper' threads, thought I'd give this potentially bomb-able thread a try. Basically, as the quote states, people now days are more willing to shift and utilise gender boundaries and expectations; women are wearing power suits and "fucking like men" (i.e. without emotions), men are seen to be emotional and caring (yes, even Bauer), the anti-establishment single lifestyle is being discussed more (Sex and the City, Will & Grace) and homosexuality is now becoming more everyday (Will & Grace, Queer Eye For The Straight Guy and hell, even Eastenders are giving it a try). All these elements are combining to represent, or possibly create, gender confusion. So as men slap on the mascara and women are running for Presidency do you feel that the boundaries of gender and sexualities are blurring and perhaps one day there won't be discussions over what makes "real men" or "feminine behaviour" (by either men or women) and most people will be "pansexual" and more androgynous? And is that even a good or bad thing?
LukeLee Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 i'll give it an attempt.. i think stereotypes will always exist, they're safe for alot of people and cognitively easier to process. If we're lucky we might just add a few more. I'll be more impressed when soaps dont use a stereotypical gay character like sean in corrie. Also with the gender issue, in those shows the women were often driven to finding a man.
gaggle64 Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Well evidentially that difference is still there is people feel the need to cross from one to the other. If people want to go to what is still a fairly extreme length to transpose themselves into a new viewpoint on life we should support them, but the gender gap is, I think thankfully, far from dead yet. I reckon something fairly scary is might happen when they get round to making artificial sperm though, thus rendering men utterly redundant to even that most basic of biological process. Now how's that for scary?
Ashley Posted February 7, 2007 Author Posted February 7, 2007 Also with the gender issue, in those shows the women were often driven to finding a man. To try and sum up a whole few chapters arguments in a few short sentances; while these women were often on the lookout for men that was not their ultimate desire, nor did their lack of success prevent them from seeking other desires. They lived their lives; they worked, fucked and had friends and enjoyed their men but did not need them. Think of the episode where Carrie launches her book; she starts by twisting the classic "Every girl dreams of the day..." wedding scenario. The authors argue it better, im off to bed.
The Bard Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Gender of course still exists, it's just that the stereotypes that define people of a particular gender are dissolving. The constraints of society aren't so much a factor anymore, and more and more people are finding that they don't really care what other people think anyways. People are born with male genetalia, but produce no progesterone, and thus are hormonally female, are the majority of men who have sex changes. I don't necessarily think that it's a good or bad thing, it's progression...some peoples morally dubious nature will take advantage of that fact, hence the reason for the spread of venereal desease, while other people will thrive. It's good to be liberal, but not so much so that all sense of morality is lost. Society still hasn't gotten to the point where we're able to understand our differences, and thus have some respect for each other, infact, misoginy and xenophobia are still very much apparent everywhere you look. I'm just talking total crap here, so I'm gonna stop.
Dyson Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 It's a good point, and one that I expect many people will raise in the near future.
LukeLee Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 To try and sum up a whole few chapters arguments in a few short sentances; while these women were often on the lookout for men that was not their ultimate desire, nor did their lack of success prevent them from seeking other desires. They lived their lives; they worked, fucked and had friends and enjoyed their men but did not need them. Think of the episode where Carrie launches her book; she starts by twisting the classic "Every girl dreams of the day..." wedding scenario. The authors argue it better, im off to bed. i wasnt particularly trying to argue it in essay style, which is why it was a short sentence without references. However, i stand by my view that many female characters seem to live to get a man, looking at susan in desperate housewives, her character for all the series has been about pursuing Mike (with a few other men here and there), her career is only mentioned briefly and even the relationship with her daughter is only used occasionally and superficially in the show.
Whizkid Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 i think it dosen't because any job men can do women can do vise versa I'll give you an example 2 years back i went to work with my dad for a school thing and on the letter it said it replaces take your daughter to work so every gender gets an equal part
The3rdChildren Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Gender will always exist, but the definition of each gender has radically changed over the years. That's all I've got. My mind isn't equipped to deal with such demanding debate and discussion.
ZeldaFreak Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Now I know I will probably end up with an infraction point but we shall see: Anyway you will see some women act more masculine, and you will see some men act more femine. I believe this is an actual psychological problem called gender dysphoria. Meaning that gender (man/female) exists its all these people with this psychological problem. That have mixed gender which are the problem but they are trying to treat these people to make it better.
Gaijin von Snikbah Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 The boundaries are definetly getting smaller or closer or whatever... But there will always be a difference.
killthenet Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Gender certainly still exists. If a man has a sex change and becomes a woman, they become infertile. Same happens to a woman who becomes a man, there is no way that they can produce sperm. This will all change in the next 30 or so years though as womb and testicle transplants become possible. But gender will still exist. A man will always be seen as a man until he becomes a woman. Gender stills exists but there is now the ability to change gender if the person feels they were born in an incorrect body. Psychologicaly, gender is defiinately fading away as the majority of men and women have aspects of the opposite gender, as Ashley explained. But gender to me has always been more physical than psychological, which is why transgender people feel the need to go through with gender reassignment.
Fierce_LiNk Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Gender of course still exists, it's just that the stereotypes that define people of a particular gender are dissolving. The constraints of society aren't so much a factor anymore, and more and more people are finding that they don't really care what other people think anyways. Pretty much what I was thinking. There's also factors to take into account, such as sexual equality. I don't think chivelry (sp?) is as great as it used to be. This is both a good and bad thing. Whilst it's good for women to gain their own independence, I can't help but feel we've lost a sense of politeness. Hmm, that's probably something else entirely. Call me a typical bloke, but this is how I think. I like "my girls" to be feminine. There really isn't anything sexy about a girl wearing a tracksuit, 'downing' pints of beer. It just doesn't do anything for me. I can't imagine that that does anything for most people, heh. I'm not sure if I'm all for this macho or masculine female either. But, then again, I don't like many "macho-men" either. So, maybe I'm just anti-macho anything. As to Ashley's last point, I think there's always going to be stereotypes. Some things just never change. Fact is, we pass on our ideas to other people, such as our children. Things like upbringing, they affect what we perceive in life. As for the idea that "men are stronger" than women, or more important, it's still pretty much evident in today's society. Think about Wimbledon. The prize money for winning wimbledon is still higher for a man than it is for a woman competitor. There's other sports where this is probably still evident. Actually, somebody was telling me last week about their friend being in a "gay rugby team." It just got me thinking...whats the point? Does that mean you're not aloud to join a "normal" rugby team if you are gay? Does that mean "straight people" can't join a "gay rugby team"?
killthenet Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 No, it just means that they'll want to get out of the showers pretty fast.
motion Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Actually, somebody was telling me last week about their friend being in a "gay rugby team." It just got me thinking...whats the point? Does that mean you're not aloud to join a "normal" rugby team if you are gay? Does that mean "straight people" can't join a "gay rugby team"? I think it's a little more complicated than that Fierce. If you're gay and you play rugby... you either feel comfortable about joining a normal team or not. If you don't feel comfortable, gay rugby teams are the only way to go. Obviously there must be a hell of a lot of gay rugby players that are in normal teams but they don't feel comfortable letting everyone know that they are gay for whatever reason and so have to hide it. Basically, gay rugby teams are there for guys who feel more at ease around gay players. But I do know that there have been a couple of straight players in a gay team every so often and obviously gay players are in straight teams all over the country, out of the closet or not (the majority being not I would say)
weeyellowbloke Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 It is getting to the point in society where a woman can do pretty much anything a man can do and men are becoming more open to traditionally feminine roles (i.e. dads staying home and ooking after the kids). However, when it comes down to it men are still men and women are still women. I don't know, I'll try and write something a bit more comprehensible when it's not 2:00 in the morning and my brain works.
Haden Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 You just need to put in your head that I have nothing against gay people or black, or anyone at all. (except gypsies) I think I was fathered by a gypsy Oh onto this. My godamn gf is always pulling feminist bullcrap on me. And then shes like can I have the nice side of the bed or the good plate im a girl. I dont understand why she complains when I punch her in the ovaries after that sort of behaviour.
jayseven Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 I think that no matter what external factors may exist currently (or future-ly...) there will be some sort of underlying psychological difference between the sexes. My girlfriend totally thinks differently to me - If she did or said something I'd done, then it wouldn't be half as bad. The phrase 'double standards' comes to mind, but I don't think that's it. I've got friends back home who are gay, bi and straight. One bi girl thinks she's barely girly at all, but we both know that she still thinks like a girl. One of the gay guys I know seems to think that the label 'gay' is equal to having a personality - if anyone describes him in one word, it's gay. My other gay mate is completely the opposite. Being gay for him is just a minor factor of who he is. His personality actually comprises of hobbies, interests and humourous anecdotes, not just the fact that he fancies men. But being gay does not make them female. It does not make them even think like a girl. Perhaps I could be called closed-minded, but I still think there is a difference between us three and my bisexual female friend that goes beyond sexuality. None of us do a job that the other three couldn't, and I think that's besides the point... I suppose, looking at this in a sort of cave-man sort of way, as a species we are rather confused with our role as seperate sexes. Surely the only real difference between the sexes is that one gets pregnant and the other does not? This one difference back in the day meant that the men went on the hunt in order to protect the unborn young, which in turn meant that the women helped with society by tending to things the men were too often absent to partake in... But after a fair few millenia there is less and less need for this splitting of roles. Maybe there is indeed less of a difference between the sexes than before... We all have our own stereotypes of other people. it's unavoidable. It's how our minds mechanically survive interactions with other sentiant beings when they can't actually comprehend the existance of any single other mind out there. Perhaps we seek to fit into some sort of stereotype in order to be understood or at least accepted, in order to be a part of the society. I suppose that the whole nature vs. nurture argument is entirely relevant here... Too much to think clearly about at 3 in the morning...
Aimless Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Going back to something Fierce_LiNk mentioned, I'm a strong believer in chivalry. I treat men and women differently; I can't help it, it's intrinsic. I suppose some people — women — find this offensive as they think I'm belitting them, but that isn't it at all. I just think that's how things are done¹, and I can't help but play the unwanted knight in khaki armour. On the other hand, sexuality means little to me: if you're a lesbian you're still going to have the same scrawny geek asking if you want a hand with that heavy lifting. If you're a guy that's attracted to men then fine, good for you; your preference in vegetables will have the same bearing on whether I like you or not.² So, getting on to the original topic, I think that global sexual identity is becoming more and more androgynous, but gender is as strong as ever, it just doesn't come with as much social baggage as it once did. I don't feel I've really taken this question anywhere... ¹I imagine my SAGA holiday catalogue is in the post. ²Bit of a tangent here, but people that define themselves by their sexuality often annoy me. Like the, "Woo, I'm gay and going to ram it down everybody's throat³!" crowd. I understand the new-found pride in one's lifestyle and relishing the freedom that was until recently lacking, but it can still grate. For the record, men that brag about women they've slept with elicit exactly the same response. ³Not like that.
Ashley Posted February 8, 2007 Author Posted February 8, 2007 Only briefly flicked through this (should go to work) but: Define gender and define sex (the noun, not the verb). They are two different things. Sex is biological, penis, vagina etc. Gender is more social & personality wise. So when I was saying does gender still exist I meant in that way, not "will everyone suddenly become hamephrodites?
Blackfox Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 There will always be gender for me, whether its biological or social. Men will always be needed in the near future for the continuation of the race. With the psych issues. Women are doing the jobs now that were predominently male in the past, and men are doing the roles that women used to do. That's just the way soceity is heading. Its a natural progression. There's no harm as long as both sexes can do their jobs to the same standard. People I think will always get treated differently though. This is getting deep. Also, will the trollers please fuck off. If you can't keep with the adult discussion then don't join in.
ZeldaFreak Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 ZeldaFreak is clearly a closet Nazi. So I take it you don't believe the doctors that people, not me mind you, have a condition called gender dysphoria. BTW your a bit arrogant for a 17 year old kid, you know.
Goron_3 Posted February 8, 2007 Posted February 8, 2007 Gender of course still exists, it's just that the stereotypes that define people of a particular gender are dissolving. The constraints of society aren't so much a factor anymore, and more and more people are finding that they don't really care what other people think anyways. People are born with male genetalia, but produce no progesterone, and thus are hormonally female, are the majority of men who have sex changes. I don't necessarily think that it's a good or bad thing, it's progression...some peoples morally dubious nature will take advantage of that fact, hence the reason for the spread of venereal desease, while other people will thrive. It's good to be liberal, but not so much so that all sense of morality is lost. Society still hasn't gotten to the point where we're able to understand our differences, and thus have some respect for each other, infact, misoginy and xenophobia are still very much apparent everywhere you look. I'm just talking total crap here, so I'm gonna stop. me and zell were talking at school the day about you. We came to the conclusion that everything you say is right We worship yee bard : peace: But yeah, what Bard said about the stereotypes of genders dissolving is pretty much right. You can see it everywhere.
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