EU referendum - second choice

[MoogleViper]

Thought I'd post a poll to see how people's choices have changed (or not).

[bob]

What if I voted remain last time, but I'm not sure? Where's that option?

[MoogleViper]

What if I voted remain last time, but I'm not sure? Where's that option?

 

I considered that, but then I couldn't be arsed with adding 3 more options.

 

Basically your opinion is no longer of importance.

[Mr-Paul]

Remain/Remain.

 

Still can't believe quite how mean and reckless our government are being.

 

Well, I shouldn't be surprised really.

[MoogleViper]

Remain/Remain.

 

Still can't believe quite how mean and reckless our government are being.

 

Well, I shouldn't be surprised really.

 

Completely agree. Especially as (from what I gathered) most leave voters were more concerned with taking the power away from the EU. Whereas May seems focused on completely changing everything.

[Eenuh]

I didn't get to vote, but my opinion hasn't changed at all. This entire referendum was a shambles, with false information being thrown at uninformed people. And with such a small win margin, it never should have been accepted.

 

 

I think the whole thing is going to be a big mess, which will take years to sort out. And people might find out that the things they wanted, will not actually happen.

 

I have looked into getting a permanent residency card so they can't just kick me out (something I shouldn't even have to do as a member of the EEA, but I don't trust this government), but I have to send in my ID and it can take 6 months to sort out... I can't go without my ID for that long so I'm not sure what to do about this right now.

[Rummy]

I voted remain and I want to remain( - but I most certainly don't want to lose Scotland at any cost. I'd rather leave the EU and keep Scotland than remain and lose them(of course the latter isn't really likely at the moment).

 

So I was a remainer who wants to remain, but above all would want to keep Scotland as part of the UK.

 

EDIT: To clarify my want is not a disrespect of the outcome of the original referendum. I stand by the fact that should be respected despite it not being something I wish as I don't think any of this is doing us many favours economonically nor do I believe it will do much for us economically going forwards. I'm not an economist or a politician(though they're pretty much just as useless) but I don't think from what I've seen so far that we're getting much of use out of it. I don't mind Brexiting either - but I want the terms to be favourable. It's going to affect the middle and lower 'classes' much more than the upper classes imo - and I'm certainly much more in the former!

Edited March 14, 2017 by Rummy

[Agent Gibbs]

I still don't get how the referendum was/is legally binding given all the false claims made by the Vote Leave campaign, i know people who went on and on about £350million a week to go to the NHS, deporting immigrants, closing borders and staying in the single market to reap the benefits and thats all a load of shit, so how is it legally binding?

If the scots held their referendum tomorrow and ran on the platform of free oral sex for all and a £1000 per citizen, then when everyone votes to leave says "ahh well we never literally meant it" would that be legal?

 

And May is just making it up as she goes along! the original vote leave was to leave the European government and remain in the single market, but she's going full burn bridges mode, leave the single market, default on debts (and even claim they owe us) and is keeping on the table not enshrining rights of eu nationals in the UK already! nobody voted for that aside from the xenophobes, its like a messy divorce where she is out for blood

[dwarf]

The thing is it wasn't binding, as was reported back in October.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-vote-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-supreme-court-legal-challenge-article-50-a7418706.html

 

However, it would be near political suicide for the main parties to not follow the 'will of the people' on the referendum vote (if you can call can such a small winning margin 'the will of the people,' and not a fickle decision that's constantly in flux). With that said, Labour should have contested the terms of the Article 50 bill so that we could better protect some important interests that might be lost out on after Brexit, but that didn't happen because of Corbyn. The Lib Dems meanwhile have seen Brexit as an opportunity to win back seats by 'remaining remain', while Labour and the Tories push Article 50 through, despite the fact that the majority of MPs on both sides are pro-EU.

 

Saw an interesting piece of analysis by Michael Deacon today:

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by dwarf

[Rummy]

I still don't get how the referendum was/is legally binding given all the false claims made by the Vote Leave campaign, i know people who went on and on about £350million a week to go to the NHS, deporting immigrants, closing borders and staying in the single market to reap the benefits and thats all a load of shit, so how is it legally binding?

If the scots held their referendum tomorrow and ran on the platform of free oral sex for all and a £1000 per citizen, then when everyone votes to leave says "ahh well we never literally meant it" would that be legal?

 

And May is just making it up as she goes along! the original vote leave was to leave the European government and remain in the single market, but she's going full burn bridges mode, leave the single market, default on debts (and even claim they owe us) and is keeping on the table not enshrining rights of eu nationals in the UK already! nobody voted for that aside from the xenophobes, its like a messy divorce where she is out for blood

 

Although it isn't legally binding this is a fair point and it should have been pursued somehow imo. However I've sorta just resigned myself to giving up on the point. There's always these little titters of lies within politics and nobody ever really seems to get held properly to account. What happened to election fraud claims around UKIP and/or The Conservatives previously? Wasn't there accusations or possibly even evidence of misfunding for election campaigns? I certainly feel one of the problems with Brexit is that it really won't deliver what a lot of people felt or expected - and then they'll be doubly pissed off if the country is both in the shitter at the same time their concerns went fairly unaddressed.

[dwarf]

I think voters on both sides will feel vindicated regardless of the consequences of Brexit.

[Cube]

I just wish things would change so that it felt like the people were in control of the country again.

 

Now it just feels like some people we didn't pick to run the country are doing their own thing, and seem to be picking something that only a minority of people want.

 

The vote was about leaving the EU. There are some important factors regarding how we leave (like free movement and the free market) that May and her small group of people are deciding amongst themselves, paying absolutely no attention to what the people want.

[EEVILMURRAY]

It's not a best of three.

[Ashley]

I didn't get to vote, but my opinion hasn't changed at all. This entire referendum was a shambles, with false information being thrown at uninformed people. And with such a small win margin, it never should have been accepted.

 

 

I think the whole thing is going to be a big mess, which will take years to sort out. And people might find out that the things they wanted, will not actually happen.

 

I have looked into getting a permanent residency card so they can't just kick me out (something I shouldn't even have to do as a member of the EEA, but I don't trust this government), but I have to send in my ID and it can take 6 months to sort out... I can't go without my ID for that long so I'm not sure what to do about this right now.

 

Could you get by with some national Belgium ID thing? I'm assuming there is one. Most EU countries other than us have one. Can't recall if you can travel (in EU) with just that though...

 

I voted remain and still word, but as it stands I might just leave instead.

[Eenuh]

Could you get by with some national Belgium ID thing? I'm assuming there is one. Most EU countries other than us have one. Can't recall if you can travel (in EU) with just that though...

 

I voted remain and still word, but as it stands I might just leave instead.

 

My Belgian ID is the thing I have to send in. :P

It is what I use to travel in Europe. I don't have a passport (would only need one outside of Europe). Can't really get a passport easily either as I would have to go to Belgian embassy in London (on two separate trips) to get it... Don't have any annual leave left to just go there, boooh.

 

And yes, leave! I think more people should move to different countries to get a feel of the world and different cultures! I wouldn't mind moving to some other countries either if I ever got the chance (especially if they are nice and warm).

[Fierce_LiNk]

I voted to remain and I would still vote the same if there were to be a second referendum.

 

The whole thing has been a farce and has shown off the UK in an exceptionally poor light. The whole campaign was dominated by the Tories and UKIP and I thought Labour were tragically poor during the build-up to the vote. We STILL don't know what Brexit is...so how could the public possibly be able to vote in such a matter, especially when there were and are too many variables, e.g. staying in the single market. It's not just a binary choice because what one person interprets as Brexit could be vastly different from somebody else's definition.

 

The gist of it is that I think there has been a lot of "blagging" and "winging it" since the result. There's no real plan and it's just been a mess that is causing lots of uncertainty. The more worrying thing for me is that Labour have essentially self-destructed since the referendum and it looks like we'll be stuck with a Conservative government for a long, long time with no viable opposition. That's dangerous, imo. A different topic, for sure, but one that has traces back to the referendum.

[Ashley]

My Belgian ID is the thing I have to send in. :P

It is what I use to travel in Europe. I don't have a passport (would only need one outside of Europe). Can't really get a passport easily either as I would have to go to Belgian embassy in London (on two separate trips) to get it... Don't have any annual leave left to just go there, boooh.

 

And yes, leave! I think more people should move to different countries to get a feel of the world and different cultures! I wouldn't mind moving to some other countries either if I ever got the chance (especially if they are nice and warm).

 

Ah okay, that may be a problem!

[Raining_again]

Our little country is royally fucked. Farming will fall to its knees (which is a lot of our economy) and a hard border between north & south will restrict movement and I reckon there will be a surge in the Troubles again.

 

I voted to remain, and would again.

[EEVILMURRAY]

We STILL don't know what Brexit is...

Fucks sake...

 

Brexit means Brexit.

 

I don't know how much clearer Teresa May can be on the matter.

[MoogleViper]

Our little country is royally fucked. Farming will fall to its knees (which is a lot of our economy) and a hard border between north & south will restrict movement and I reckon there will be a surge in the Troubles again.

 

I voted to remain, and would again.

 

With Brexit, and if Scotland secede from the UK, I'd imagine Northern Ireland would follow suit. Wales will probably hold a referendum a few years later (can't work out how they'd voted).

 

Then we'd be left on an isolationist island, with even more power devoted to London and the banks, and a Tory majority every election.

 

Sounds fun.

[sumo73]

My view has remained the same (although was completed different prior to 2016) and if there was a vote tomorrow I would vote the same again. I looked into both sides of the debate, researched it quite a bit and came up with the same conclusion.

 

Prior to the vote, I was engaged in politics but now my faith in each other, my faith in politics and the media (both old and new) is at a new low. I started getting into Star Trek and superhero films late last year as a way to getting out of the mess that is politics right now.

 

If things turn truly bad which I think they won't but if they do I can always apply for an Irish passport (which I have thought about for several years) alongside my British one.

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by sumo73

[Pestneb]

 

EDIT: To clarify my want is not a disrespect of the outcome of the original referendum. I stand by the fact that should be respected despite it not being something I wish as I don't think any of this is doing us many favours economonically nor do I believe it will do much for us economically going forwards. I'm not an economist or a politician(though they're pretty much just as useless) but I don't think from what I've seen so far that we're getting much of use out of it. I don't mind Brexiting either - but I want the terms to be favourable. It's going to affect the middle and lower 'classes' much more than the upper classes imo - and I'm certainly much more in the former!

 

In terms of long term effects, current expectations are that at the end of our lifetimes, UK> France >Germany. short term I do expect worse economy, but it won't be definitive (I hope!)

[dwarf]

In terms of long term effects, current expectations are that at the end of our lifetimes, UK> France >Germany. short term I do expect worse economy, but it won't be definitive (I hope!)

 

As if anyone could predict that. What've you been reading?

[sumo73]

With Brexit, and if Scotland secede from the UK, I'd imagine Northern Ireland would follow suit. Wales will probably hold a referendum a few years later (can't work out how they'd voted).

 

Then we'd be left on an isolationist island, with even more power devoted to London and the banks, and a Tory majority every election.

 

Sounds fun.

 

 

If Scotland became independent then they would push to rejoin the EU and therefore would have to accept the Euro thus dropping the pound sterling. Spain (I've also heard France and Belgium) has already said that it won't accept Scotland as a single country rejoining the EU since it doesn't want to promote parts of Spain doing the same thing, this in part is also true with France and Belgium. Also the EU would be accepting a country in debt into it's fold. I'm not sure how that would work.

 

With Scotland having a nationalist party in charge they will always push for independence but the situation is different in Northern Ireland as long as you have a Unionist party in charge. If the first minster became someone from Sinn Fein then things change.

 

Wales voted to leave the EU and again the situation is different. If leaving the EU makes Wales much worse in the future then parties like Paid Cymru could make the case for independence and a push to rejoin the EU. Again some EU countries would object.

 

These are all 'ifs'...no one knows what will happen.

 

 

 

'These humans are being to bore me' - Zod

Edited March 16, 2017 by sumo73

[Pestneb]

As if anyone could predict that. What've you been reading?

I did add "I hope" at the end - it is from several sources, but to give an idea of accuracy the article I recall most specifically was one from the bbc alluding to the low birthrate and ageing population in Germany (I believe reasoning for Merkel encouraging immigrants to come to Germany, to lower the average age and hopefully boost birthrates).

These forecasts are based on data collected on populations etc, and number crunching to extrapolate where countries are headed. obviously it isn't fool proof, I don't know what sources of information they are using, I honestly don't understand the detail of their analysis (nor have I been able to observe it) so maybe they have missed something really important.

I added hope because I understand it is only a forecast, just like the weather.

 

I mean, google tells me the % chance of rain where I live any given day in the next couple of weeks, and how much they think will fall. As if they can actually know that... and they don't. But they can still forecast the most likely possibility according to the data they have available (or the company they buy the data from...).

Weather forecasts several years ahead also exist (just as expected very unreliable... just like economic ones.)

 

 

And May [...] is keeping on the table not enshrining rights of eu nationals in the UK already!

 

While the EU is keeping on the table not enshrining rights of UK nationals in the EU already, I (as someone here on the continent) 100% agree with that position. I believe I read that May said that she wanted to reach an agreement to protect EU nationals in the UK, but I believe she is 100% right not to do so unilaterally.

The EU isn't some nice fluffy benign entity. They are going to be negotiating hard, if May offers EU nationals a right to stay without securing a reciprocal agreement for UK citizens it leaves a very real possibility that those of us who are living here in the EU will end up being forced to return to the UK and leave our lives on the continent. Already I know a lot of UK citizens are returning to the UK because the uncertainty isn't any nicer for us than it is for EU citizens in the UK.

Also, it's not just May, if anything imo it's more the EU, if they wanted to they could do an agreement in principle at least guaranteeing EU and UK nationals rights in the UK and EU. May is actually open to that, it is the EU that stated absolutely no negotiations until Article 50 is used.

 

We STILL don't know what Brexit is...

 

The gist of it is that I think there has been a lot of "blagging" and "winging it" since the result. There's no real plan and it's just been a mess that is causing lots of uncertainty. The more worrying thing for me is that Labour have essentially self-destructed since the referendum and it looks like we'll be stuck with a Conservative government for a long, long time with no viable opposition. That's dangerous, imo. A different topic, for sure, but one that has traces back to the referendum.

 

Well Brexit is the UK leaving the EU... and until negotiations with the EU have concluded, no one can say what terms there will be, only what they may be.

 

The problem is the media want to know the government position, and the government have to be careful about giving too much out prior to negotiations. They have to give out an unrealistic perfect scenario, because lowering the bar prior to negotiating terms would be like getting a taxi and telling your friends not to worry about the far because you have a £50 note in your pocket (had a friend do that once... guess how much the fare ended up being...)

 

I agree on your point about conservatives holding power too long... I think longer than 2 full terms in office is a negative thing, regardless if it is the party I feel aligns most closely to me. I think all the parties have their weaknesses, and breaks in their hold on power allows the opposition to readjust and steady the nation, while the losing party reassesses their position and comes back more fit to run the nation. But right now I see a conservative victory next election In this instance that stability may be positive post brexit though, and I am hoping a post corbyn labour will become fit to run the nation once more. At least it won't be cameron 3 in a row.