The Grind

[Fierce_LiNk]

Inspired by @Hero\-of\-Time in the Gaming Diary Thread.

 

So...the Grind. Specifically, in RPGs. How many of us actually enjoy these elements?

 

To me, it's probably the thing I enjoy the least about RPGs. It's one thing that annoyed me about Xenoblade, particularly how there were several difficulty spikes where you couldn't use your skill in battle to overcome the enemy. You had to go out to a field somewhere and grind until you were strong enough to come back and defeat the enemy.

 

I don't like the repetition of it. However, others may feel differently. What say you?!

[Hero-of-Time]

I'll certainly be in the minority when saying I love The Grind. Nothing better than finding a great spot to level up your team, stick the headphones in and listen to some music, spend a good while in said grinding spot, and then decimate enemies for the next part of the story. Love it.

 

I actually take issue with RPGs that don't allow me to do this!

[somme]

I don't mind grinding but prefer it when I don't notice I'm doing it. For example, in Fallout for the Witcher I just went off exploring and killing things and doing side quests, all the while gaining XP and levelling up.

[Rummy]

I'm not a fan of the grind if it's really too much of a grind - FFX being one of the major turn-based JRPGs I gave a lot of time to; I did have to do some notable bits of grinding at times to try and get by easier(maybe I was just a bit basic though). Xenoblade Chronicles had a very small grind imo, in that if you got to a point where you kept failing it still gave you XP where a lot of other games would not unless I'm mistaken. Could be argued I'm in the 'grind' in Destiny, though I'm enjoying my gameplay whilst doing it so is it a grind, or no?

 

It does remind me(also HoT's post) though about an article I once read about playing games on harder difficulties and the punishment you might put yourself in for when you really don't need to - if you're interested in the content why not go easy then do another difficulty run if it was good enough to make you want to play again? I related it to HoT cos he said about grinding up to a point where he can just tear through the game for a bit after, and I thought seeing that why not just go for an easier difficulty if the options there? It's moving the topic away from its original idea though.

[Glen-i]

Depends. I don't mind grinding if I feel like I'm willingly doing it and it's relatively easy to do.

 

Actually, a brilliant comparison of good and bad grinding comes packaged in one game. Puzzle & Dragons Z + SMB edition.

 

P&D Z is an example of good grinding. The monsters you collect are very simple to level up using certain areas that boast high exp, yet easy to kill monsters.

You can even use monster eggs you don't need to get more exp.

After the credits roll, it's not unheard of to get a monster from Level 1 to 99 in about an hour or 2.

And the game never really requires the player to grind to at least see the credits. Team Build and move execution will take you further than any grinding will.

 

Of course, you'll have to take my word for it, because none of you played this fantastic game!

 

The SMB version on the other hand is just awful when it comes to grinding.

It takes hours just to gain a few levels, insane difficulty means grinding is absolutely necessary, and it just feels like a slog.

Oh, and this is the one that N-Europe peeps played... Typical.

[Hero-of-Time]

 

It does remind me(also HoT's post) though about an article I once read about playing games on harder difficulties and the punishment you might put yourself in for when you really don't need to - if you're interested in the content why not go easy then do another difficulty run if it was good enough to make you want to play again? I related it to HoT cos he said about grinding up to a point where he can just tear through the game for a bit after, and I thought seeing that why not just go for an easier difficulty if the options there? It's moving the topic away from its original idea though.

 

There are very few traditional JRPGs that allow you to change the difficulty. Most are set at a certain level and you have to make do. WRPGs seem to allow you to change the difficulty though. Must be a East vs West culture thing.

 

If I play a game on the hardest setting its usually because there's a trophy/achievement involved. If there isn't then I usually just play on the normal setting.

 

Funny The Grind should come up as I've just bought Super Mario RPG on the Wii U Virtual Console and guess what I'm doing?

[drahkon]

I'm also one of the few who loves The Grind. I don't do it to wreck later enemies, though. It's mostly because I always expect an optional boss that is insanely tough

[Rummy]

There are very few traditional JRPGs that allow you to change the difficulty. Most are set at a certain level and you have to make do. WRPGs seem to allow you to change the difficulty though. Must be a East vs West culture thing.

 

If I play a game on the hardest setting its usually because there's a trophy/achievement involved. If there isn't then I usually just play on the normal setting.

 

Funny The Grind should come up as I've just bought Super Mario RPG on the Wii U Virtual Console and guess what I'm doing?

 

One thing Super Mario RPG and the later Mario RPG-esque games brought in though was the timed dodges/attack boosts, which made the turn-based grinding a lot less gruelling for me. Such an absolutely cracking game though, chock full of charm, colour and character. Everyone who considers them a Nintendo/Mario fan really needs to have played it.

[killthenet]

I think it depends on the game really, I enjoyed it in Skyrim, because you could team levelling up with exploration so it still felt like you were making progress in the game rather than just going over old areas and seeking out enemies. Similarly in Pokemon it feels great when you're making progress through the game and your squad are levelling up, but it does get frustrating when you trapse through old areas, or keep fighting the elite four to get your Pokemon up to level 100.

 

Skyrim is a good example I think because it tailored situations to your characters level, so your progress through the game wouldn't be impeded by being a lower level.

[Dcubed]

Grinding is the sign of a poorly designed game. Quite simply, it's there to waste your time and quite frankly, I think it's a bit disrespectful to the player who bought your game.

 

I mean, it's ok if it's for something optional (and yes I do include Monster Hunter in the optional category since it's absolutely possible to progress without getting that fancy armour or weapon you lust over), but not if it's required to progress in the main game. Nothing turns me off a game faster than a long, slog of a grind.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Dcubed

[nekunando]

Grinding is HORRIBLE

 

I've never played that many games where it has been necessary but I certainly encountered it during Xenoblade Chronicles on Wii this year. I was enjoying the game and found myself determined to finish it but the difficulty spikes at times were really frustrating as it felt like hours were wasted just in order to progress past a stumbling block

 

Due to me being absorbed in the worlds of Bionis and Mechonis, I was prepared to put up with the grind in order to experience the greater whole but I'll have to admit that it has left me feeling like I have no desire to ever purchase Xenoblade Chronicles X on Wii U.

 

RPGs have never entirely been my thing, though I have softened to them a little in recent years with Paper Mario, Golden Sun and, to an extent, Skies of Arcadia. I still need to go back to the latter, as it's suspended on approximately 20 hours of play, but I almost find the feeling if returning a little daunting in case I become frustrated in battle. I prefer not to have to worry about being at a high enough level or have enough experience points in order to tackle battles in games as I find it more rewarding to improve my own skills in order to overcome a challenging foe!

[Dcubed]

Grinding is HORRIBLE

 

I've never played that many games where it has been necessary but I certainly encountered it during Xenoblade Chronicles on Wii this year. I was enjoying the game and found myself determined to finish it but the difficulty spikes at times were really frustrating as it felt like hours were wasted just in order to progress past a stumbling block

 

Due to me being absorbed in the worlds of Bionis and Mechonis, I was prepared to put up with the grind in order to experience the greater whole but I'll have to admit that it has left me feeling like I have no desire to ever purchase Xenoblade Chronicles X on Wii U.

 

RPGs have never entirely been my thing, though I have softened to them a little in recent years with Paper Mario, Golden Sun and, to an extent, Skies of Arcadia. I still need to go back to the latter, as it's suspended on approximately 20 hours of play, but I almost find the feeling if returning a little daunting in case I become frustrated in battle. I prefer not to have to worry about being at a high enough level or have enough experience points in order to tackle battles in games as I find it more rewarding to improve my own skills in order to overcome a challenging foe!

 

Xenoblade is one where I never actually felt a need to grind. I always seemed to be at a high enough level all throughout (it helps that you do no damage at all if you're too low, so it encourages you to keep yourself up to spec by doing side quests - which have had all the grind sucked out of them thanks to the streamlined way you can do them while just exploring the world, without needing to go out of your way or return back to the NPC who gave it to you ).

 

Same with the Mario RPGs and Chrono Trigger for that matter.

 

Skies of Arcadia as well doesn't require grinding (not even for the optional stuff) and neither do the likes of Golden Sun and The World Ends With You. There's quite a few RPGs out there that are well balanced in that regard.

 

The Final Fantasies are generally not amongst them though. FF7 was pretty well balanced, but FF1-3 are certainly not. FF4 is... Until right at the very end where you suddenly have a massive difficulty spike (and the DS one is just total BS all throughout). FF6 requires a bit of grinding as well, especially when your party gets split up in the second half. FF8... is pure grinding hell and FF9 & 10 suffer from a bit of the grind as well.

 

FF11 and 14 are nothing but grinding by their nature and FF12 also suffers from it. FF13 :p

Edited December 24, 2015 by Dcubed

[nekunando]

Skies of Arcadia as well doesn't require grinding (not even for the optional stuff) and neither do the likes of Golden Sun and The World Ends With You. There's quite a few RPGs out there that are well balanced in that regard.

 

With Golden Sun and The World Ends With You being amongst my favourite RPGs, it's probably no coincidence that there is a lack of grinding required

 

I would like to think I'll finally return to Skies of Arcadia in 2016 and perhaps dip my toe into Chrono Trigger, at last Having said that, I've been tempted to try out my PS1 version of Final Fantasy VII too, given Cloud's inclusion in Super Smash Bros, but then just thinking about all that makes me worry about having too many RPGs to take on, especially when Paper Mario on the Wii VC needs to be cleared too!

[Hero-of-Time]

All the Final Fantasy games that have optional bosses require grinding. Good luck taking things down like Ruby Weapon, Omega Weapon, Beasts in the Calm Lands etc without gaining the necessary levels.

 

In terms of respecting the players time, I find the Mario RPGs shocking at doing this. The games aren't really that hard ( enemies do pitiful damage ) but the amount of HP that bosses have is just stupid. Hell, I'm sitting here playing SMRPG, in no danger of dying but the boss battles take an absolute age. Found the same issue with Paper Jam and it's something that has never been addressed in the series.

[Esequiel]

I'm with @Hero\-of\-Time and @drahkon as I said in the other thread. I think my first grind was Pokemon Blue on the GBC. I remember being level 99 relatively early (maybe gym 6) and struggling because Pokemon wouldn't do as they were told lol

 

The grinding in games now isn't that bad at all, I'm playing fallout at the minute and wish there was a spot to go at for a few hours and level up. Seriously if you want to see a tough grind check out early FFXI on youtube.

 

It was crazy, after level 10 it was about 5k xp to the next level. You needed a party of 6 that was balanced (and as it was a mmo it was all real people) and would get between 15 to 100 xp per kill. If you fought the 100xp mobs you would be fighting for 2-3 minutes. It got worse at higher levels, it took me literally 5 years to get my first max level job. Those were the days........ Lol

[Hero-of-Time]

I remember playing Shining in the Darkness when I was a kid. I spent ages just grinding at the start of the first cave. I just kept killing the same enemies, going back to the tavern and repeat. To this day I still loving doing that kind of stuff in RPGs.

 

I played through Final Fantasy I recently and was doing the same thing there. Running around the over world, gaining Exp and levels, and then nipping back into the Inn to heal up.

 

Good times!

[S.C.G]

This is a really interesting discussion, I don't feel the need to grind through it at all.

 

The same applies to games, if an RPG has a really well designed battle system which doesn't force grinding on the player but makes them want to grind then that's fine, I think you'll find that it really does come down to just how invested you are in the overall experience.

 

For instance one of my favourite RPG's of all time is about the grind but in a way which breaks all the rules which previously applie in a way, because that game is Phantasy Star Online in which you can't help but grind because of the ludicrous amounts of exp required in order to advance to the next area and actually stand a chance but it doesn't just come down to that because if you have the right equipment then there really isn't much need to grind yet if you are a really low level character then the chances are that you won't have stuff which is that decent unless you transfer items over from another character.

 

This is where things become interesting because when you create each of your character you get an ID assigned to you depending on what name you gave to them and all of the drops are almost entirely different for each of the section ID's... for instance my main character Dark Avenger is a Viridia in the Hunter class so he tends to end up finding swords sometimes but mostly ranged weapons which are practically useless to him.

 

On the other side of it though I have Metal Mutiny who is an Oran in the Ranger class so those weapons are almost perfect for him and so on, essentially if you want to get the most out of the game then you need to have on the Gamecube version three seperate memory cards as you can have four character slots per card so if in theory you were to create a character of every class and race variant then you are likely to find the game more rewarding from the different drops that you'll get; this is why the game came into its own online as you could trade weapons yet offline you can either solo or play split-screen multiplayer on set missions and areas being that the best missions aren't available any more officially.

 

I go back to it sometimes not only to continue the dream of getting my main character to level 200 but also because of the treasures I might one day find along the way, so yes it is a grind but a very rewarding one indeed and it's why I think one of my favourite games definitely deserves a mention because it doesn't specifically fall into one category or the other, for me at least.

 

It also helps that the real-time combat system is as addictive as anything as well.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I don't mind grinding but prefer it when I don't notice I'm doing it. For example, in Fallout for the Witcher I just went off exploring and killing things and doing side quests, all the while gaining XP and levelling up.

 

Grinding is the sign of a poorly designed game. Quite simply, it's there to waste your time and quite frankly, I think it's a bit disrespectful to the player who bought your game.

 

I mean, it's ok if it's for something optional (and yes I do include Monster Hunter in the optional category since it's absolutely possible to progress without getting that fancy armour or weapon you lust over), but not if it's required to progress in the main game. Nothing turns me off a game faster than a long, slog of a grind.

 

I agree with both of these.

 

The Witcher had this absolutely spot on by having you leveling up whilst doing sidequests and main quests. At no point did you have to go out somewhere and repeat the same monster killing shit for hours until you were strong enough to go back and progress with the main story. I felt like I was able to do all of my exploring and enjoy the story, which is what the game is there for. I didn't feel like I was wasting my time.

 

I can understand it if there is a reason why you can't progress and then you have options to do something else worthwhile until you can progress, such as questing or challenges, etc. But, having literally nothing else to do but grind seems lame, imo. I would definitely count it as bad game design.

[Jonnas]

Generally speaking, I play RPGs with strategy in mind, whether it be using unconventional attacks, or using a specific set of gear, I'll always try to find a solution that doesn't depend on me grinding and then brute-forcing my way through. (There's a sexual joke in there somewhere)

 

A Gym Leader giving you trouble? Use a different Pokémon/attack/strategy. Sword Dancer or Abyssion giving you trouble in Tales of Symphonia? Lots of micromanaging coupled with some items you don't usually use will be much more effective than a few level-ups. Ruby Weapon is kicking your shit? Enter the battle with a dead party (seriously, it works).

 

Heck, there are extra bosses against whom levelling up simply doesn't work. Ruby Weapon (Final Fantasy VII) has insta-death moves that work regardless of level, Dullahan (Golden Sun) uses your Djinni against you, and bounties in Skies of Arcadia level up alongside you.

 

An RPG need not be about grinding, and if it is (like Disgaea), then it probably houses a shallow battle system. I only grinding I tend to like is if the goal is to learn a move or find an item that changes how you fight (so, a strategy-related goal).

 

That said, I'm playing Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, where grinding is kinda fun (namely, grinding for moves), but where every battle still needs to depend on strategy. Unlike in Disgaea, where the strategy ranged between "How can I maximize experience points?" and "Enemy too tough, no options to subdue him, let's level up and come back".

[Kav]

Grinding is shit. It's the sole reason I stopped played Destiny. The grand in the game is like no other... utter tripe design!

[Hero-of-Time]

Gaf discuss their biggest grinds in a game.

 

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1099982

 

@kav82 I'm surprised you say that, given the amount of hours you've put into Monster Hunter. Same goes for @Blade.

[Kav]

Gaf discuss their biggest grinds in a game.

 

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1099982

 

@kav82 I'm surprised you say that, given the amount of hours you've put into Monster Hunter. Same goes for @Blade.

 

Monster Hunter never really feels like a grind though. Epsecially so as I make use of every single weapon category in the game and don't just stick to one.

 

When it becomes to feel grindy I do stop though.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Gaf discuss their biggest grinds in a game.

 

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1099982

 

@kav82 I'm surprised you say that, given the amount of hours you've put into Monster Hunter. Same goes for @Blade.

 

Monster Hunter never really feels like a grind though. Epsecially so as I make use of every single weapon category in the game and don't just stick to one.

 

When it becomes to feel grindy I do stop though.

 

Ehh, I think that there's zero difference between Monster Hunter and Destiny. They're both grindy. I didn't really get into Destiny enough and the whole thing bypassed me. Tempted to go back into it and try again, although I have the fear of addiction. Monster Hunter Tri was fun, but grindy is a good way of putting it. I'd say they're both about equal in that respect.

[Hero-of-Time]

Ehh, I think that there's zero difference between Monster Hunter and Destiny. They're both grindy. I didn't really get into Destiny enough and the whole thing bypassed me. Tempted to go back into it and try again, although I have the fear of addiction. Monster Hunter Tri was fun, but grindy is a good way of putting it. I'd say they're both about equal in that respect.

 

Indeed.

 

Whether you notice it or not, Monster Hunter is built around grinding, just like Destiny. Any game which has random drops/loot is really. This is where I take issue with people saying it's bad game design. These games are intentionally created to be this way, whether you like the way these games work is another matter entirely.

 

Monster Hunter wouldn't be the same if you got the carves you wanted straight away or could trade rare items with people. Getting that item you need is stupidly satisfying and you get a real sense of progression when you finally create that weapon or armour.

[Dcubed]

Indeed.

 

Whether you notice it or not, Monster Hunter is built around grinding, just like Destiny. Any game which has random drops/loot is really. This is where I take issue with people saying it's bad game design. These games are intentionally created to be this way, whether you like the way these games work is another matter entirely.

 

Monster Hunter wouldn't be the same if you got the carves you wanted straight away or could trade rare items with people. Getting that item you need is stupidly satisfying and you get a real sense of progression when you finally create that weapon or armour.

 

Monster Hunter's grind isn't really done in the same way as, say, Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest grind though. It's entirely optional and the game is perfectly beatable without it getting the most powerful weapons or grinding to level up (in fact, it has no RPG mechanics like levelling up or experience points at all!)

 

That's why it's fine the way it currently is. You could say it's as grind heavy as you want it to be. You can have the satisfaction of gathering the materials you need to finally make that one weapon you've been pining for, or if you just want to carry on and progress without powering yourself up, that's absolutely possible as well (and that too has a strong feeling of satisfaction as you overcome the odds that you've stacked against yourself!)