The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild Wii U / Switch

[Sméagol]

37 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

To us Monster Hunter fans, it's very much a case of "Been there, done that"

Obviously, I'm not one of those ;). And I'm aware Link's outfit in other games isn't new.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Sméagol

[RedShell]

2 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Fired the game up and got the new outfit. I'm very disappointed it can't be upgraded. The whole thing seems kinda pointless. Granted, it's free but still...

Yeah, just got it myself. They should’ve made it have a unique skill enhancement, rather than swimming stamina/speed/whatever the hell it was. 

Something like giving Link a super high and floaty jump would’ve been funny, not to mention much more fitting to Xenoblade. 

[Glen-i]

12 minutes ago, RedShell said:

Something like giving Link a super high and floaty jump would’ve been funny, not to mention much more fitting to Xenoblade. 

The funny thing about that is, the original Xenoblade had a hilariously pathetic jump.

When I tried out Shulk in Smash Bros and saw he was still pretty crap at jumping, it put a big smile on my face. (Not to mention, it having the same animation)

EDIT: BTW, I am always amazed and amused that the original Link outfit Platinum showed Nintendo for the Linkonetta outfit was actually less revealing because they were scared of annoying Ninty, but then they said, "Nah, show some cleavage, it'd fit Bayonetta's style better" Good call, it makes it funnier.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Glen-i

[Kaepora_Gaebora]

So I've started a master mode play through on this with another limit I've imposed on myself as well; no fast travel at all.

I don't want to sound preachy but already its created an almost completely different experience to my original, 150+ quest.

In terms of master mode every battle requires thought, ingenuity or luck to get through, certainly when you come across a bokoblin base or such. And I'm selling alot of gems and jewels to fund food, armour and other vital supplies.

The real revelation has been no fast travelling though, every single part of the journey requires thought, consideration and actually following navigational signs around Hyrule or on the map and galloping around on my horse is something I hadn't paid much attention to on my first play through. It has made it feel like a much more epic adventure than it initially did, and that's saying something as I love BOTW.

I'd recommend trying it if you're itching to get back into Hyrule but don't just want to play the same way again. Also in taking a lot more screen captures as I'm finding I'm admiring the back drops and constant works of art even more.

My game of the year just got even better!

[Blade]

52 minutes ago, Kaepora_Gaebora said:

So I've started a master mode play through on this with another limit I've imposed on myself as well; no fast travel at all.

I don't want to sound preachy but already its created an almost completely different experience to my original, 150+ quest.

In terms of master mode every battle requires thought, ingenuity or luck to get through, certainly when you come across a bokoblin base or such. And I'm selling alot of gems and jewels to fund food, armour and other vital supplies.

The real revelation has been no fast travelling though, every single part of the journey requires thought, consideration and actually following navigational signs around Hyrule or on the map and galloping around on my horse is something I hadn't paid much attention to on my first play through. It has made it feel like a much more epic adventure than it initially did, and that's saying something as I love BOTW.

I'd recommend trying it if you're itching to get back into Hyrule but don't just want to play the same way again. Also in taking a lot more screen captures as I'm finding I'm admiring the back drops and constant works of art even more.

My game of the year just got even better!

I've been itching to get back into Hyrule. So many great games to play though! I could be tempted with master mode

[Kaepora_Gaebora]

9 minutes ago, Blade said:

I've been itching to get back into Hyrule. So many great games to play though! I could be tempted with master mode

I've loved going back in; I'm getting Rocket League tomorrow but I was also thinking of getting La Noire or Skyrim this week too...may well put that on the back burner until I've finished with this play through! 

Such a wonderful game

[Kav]

Cleaned up at the Golden Joysticks... very deserved!

Although I’m relatively surprised at the audio award - even though I loved it.

[Hero-of-Time]

38 minutes ago, Kav said:

Cleaned up at the Golden Joysticks... very deserved!

Although I’m relatively surprised at the audio award - even though I loved it.

I imagine it will clean up most of the awards that get dished out towards the end of the year.

Despite not loving the game myself, I can see why many do and why it will win many awards.

[dwarf]

For the cultured folk among us who appreciate Breath of the Wild for the stand-out game that it is, I've aggregated some of the best analysis of its design below. Most of the videos have been shared on the forum somewhere before but don't feel the need to cry about it:

1) Some interesting summaries of Nintendo's approach to game design as taken from their dev talks. I've listed the posts in order of accessibility, as some sections of the third and fourth summaries are a bit dull and technical. They were originally posted in a twitter thread which explains why they're truncated.

How Nintendo guides players: https://medium.com/@gypsyOtoko/this-is-a-reposting-of-my-twitter-thread-summarizing-articles-written-about-the-cedec-botw-dev-266c34fd30e8

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From a field design standpoint they discuss the “Triangle Rule”. They explain that using triangles carries out 2 objectives- gives players a choice as to whether to go straight over the triangle, or around, and it obscures the player’s view, so designers can utilize them to surprise players, make them wonder what they’ll find on the other side.

Sound design: https://medium.com/@gypsyOtoko/this-is-a-reposting-of-my-twitter-thread-summarizing-the-botw-cedec-talk-on-sound-design-which-can-7a5ea894e701

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To heighten this immersion they chose to express that which could not be seen through sound — separating into several categories: environmental sounds, base noise, water sounds like rivers and waterfalls, birds chirping, grass bristling, insects, the wind, footsteps, etc. Wind sounds were created using noise as a base, spawning 3 different sound sources to twirl around the player, eventually adding footstep noises — which were recorded on site in Kyoto.

The base noise — the foundation for all environmental noise is a faint air sound which changes depending on whether you’re indoors or out, or near water, and also changing based on nearby plant life, time, organic activity or rain.

User Interface and Fonts: https://medium.com/@gypsyOtoko/this-is-a-reposting-of-my-twitter-thread-summarizing-articles-of-the-botw-cedec-talks-which-can-be-91e9be85de51

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The Pro HUD was actually created because NoA/NoE asked to clean up the screen and get rid of even more UI elements -which lead to a heightened sense of immersion.

Project Management: https://medium.com/@gypsyOtoko/the-final-botw-cedec-session-as-far-as-i-know-is-from-the-engineers-botw-project-management-c30f4e42598e

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They adopted the “Framework Approach” to development — first setting guidelines and then adding on from there. They relate their milestone definitions to running on a track — for the first lap they’d set up the framework and create a proper, fun prototype, for the second lap they would run through full production, and for the 3rd lap they would polish the product as much as possible.

They also established restrictions for what wouldn’t be allowed for each “lap”. For the first lap — no implementing anything that wasn’t core to the game, for the second they focused solely on producing and getting together all necessary assets — no polish. As such, they used assets from previous games such as villages and NPCs — including enemies and bosses during the prototype lap.

 

2) Developers discuss the inspiration they've taken from Breath of the Wild

http://www.gamesradar.com/were-all-talking-about-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-developers-explain-how-its-shaping-the-future-of-games/

Quote

"The verticality plays into most of the other core aspects of the game: friction (climbing comes at the cost of stamina, just like attacks cost weapon durability, shield surfing/defending costs shield durability, etc.), environment (rain, specifically, although it's a bit overdone maybe), and exploration (there doesn't need to be a real reward at the top of any climb, because being able to see further is a reward on its own with the way the shrines and towers are easily visible with the eye).

[...]

"While many open world games use weather, emergent gameplay, and other elements that Zelda also applies masterfully, no game has done verticality as well as BotW, and so much of the core experience is cunningly built around it. By contrast, it makes other open world games - even mountainous ones - feel flat. If that's what developers take away from Zelda: Breath of the Wild, I'm excited to see what comes out in three years in the open-world genre."

3) How will Breath of the Wild change the open-world paradigm? I love the point made below - it isn't necessary for every mechanic to be a game-changer. They don't all have to have big pay-offs in a boss battle or a certain level. They can be used for texture instead.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-06-05-how-will-the-legend-of-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-change-the-open-world-paradigm

Quote

Importantly, though, the survival mechanics are handled with a light touch. When the player enters hazardous areas, for example, it isn't long before they find protective gear that shields them from the worst of it. Overly harsh survival mechanics can frustrate players, enslaving them to punitive death-countdown meters and forcing them into a desperate scrabble for food, or water, or oxygen, or what have you. They make the game about survival, and using them like that means you're making a survival game. Breath of the Wild's approach, making use of these mechanics periodically for flavour and in order to vary the constraints on the player, is much more generalisable. It adds texture to the game's world without constantly rubbing the player's face in it. Players moving from Nintendo's title to other open-world games that don't do such interesting things with their environments may find the experience comparatively flat.

Quote

Again, this approach costs time and money both to implement and to debug, all for features that are barely tangential to the game's core gameplay loops - but that in itself conveys a message to the player: that this is a game constructed with care and delight, that expresses the playful and artistic impulses of human beings, rather than being a mass-produced entertainment product.

4) In this article a writer from Borderlands 2 discusses why BotW 'dunks on most open-world games.' It perhaps isn't the most insightful piece in this list, and it's a little guilty of hyperbole, but the quoted part is worth highlighting:

https://www.destructoid.com/how-breath-of-the-wild-dunks-on-most-open-world-games-446857.phtml

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The difference between beginning-of-the-game-Link and end-of-the-game-Link has far less to do with the number of heart containers he has or the loot he's got, and far more to do with how you as the player have learned to deal with different enemies types and environmental hazards. You learn how to parry guardian blasts. You learn how to time your dodges to open up the enemy to a flurry. You learn that anything fiery can be instakilled by an ice arrow, and vice versa.

Link doesn't level up. You level up.

5) Other developers discuss their impressions of Breath of the Wild. I can't remember who says it, but someone makes a good point about how everything in the world is well proportioned - the world gives an impression of vast scale, and yet if you see something in the distance you know you can probably travel to it fairly quickly.

6) More from Nintendo themselves in their development diaries:

7) Good ol' Mark Brown:

 

8) Matt Lees analyses how BotW keeps our attention drawn to the world (& also makes some great points about the map/waypoint system)

Quote

This map is interactive, because it functions as an active tool rather than a point of passive referencing. It feels like a valuable part of the game's world rather than a facsimile [of the world itself].

Quote

If you don't feel present within that world [because you're focusing on maps, menus, HUD info etc], in the place that you're supposed to, then all of this spectacle, all of these vistas, all of these beautiful scenarios you traipse through, they don't mean much, they don't mean enough, don't have much value outside of a screen grab that you can send to your friends as a postcard.

Breath of the wild is a loud reminder that wide-eyed wonder cannot exist alongside systematic mastery. Mastery will inevitably shift the heart of where a game resides, transplanting our emotional responses with something mechanical, something colder, and if you want players to feel immersed in your atmospheres you need to keep them away from these systems, away from map screens, away from completionism, menus.

[...] Obfuscating these systems can help, but it isn't enough. Even if you try and hide these systems [...] eventually you work them out, eventually it does not work, these systems will always reveal themselves and when they do, usually this reveal will also steal away a slice of joy. And how do you stop this process? I don't think you can. I think what we can do though, is just try and slow that process down - don't rush it. Players are going to naturally gravitate towards cogs and mechanics whether or not they consciously want to master the game or just see it happen. But you can set your game up in a way, as Breath of the Wild shows, that allows players to exist in this zone where play can thrive for much much longer.

If you guys come across any like-minded analysis please share it, because I love to love this game. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by dwarf

[Ronnie]

Great work. 

I love this paragraph...

Quote

The difference between beginning-of-the-game-Link and end-of-the-game-Link has far less to do with the number of heart containers he has or the loot he's got, and far more to do with how you as the player have learned to deal with different enemies types and environmental hazards. You learn how to parry guardian blasts. You learn how to time your dodges to open up the enemy to a flurry. You learn that anything fiery can be instakilled by an ice arrow, and vice versa.

Link doesn't level up. You level up.

 

[ArtMediocre]

That is so true. I remember being afraid of the Guardians when I saw one in game. Took a lot of fights until I got the hang of it, but when I had learned how to deal with them, it was easy :D. Same with the Lynel. My first Lynel fight was a treal thrill, and got my heart racing :D.

[Dog-amoto]

I’d agree with the levelling up comment. I played this on Wii U when it came out and died loads. Got it again when I bought a Switch last month and I’ve not died half as much. 

[Glen-i]

That levelling up paragraph can be said about any Zelda game though? You learn about the game mechanics and get better at the game. That's basic game design. Very confused.

Ah well, the game's still boring.

[Sméagol]

8 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

That levelling up paragraph can be said about any Zelda game though? You learn about the game mechanics and get better at the game. That's basic game design. Very confused.

Ah well, the game's still boring.

No, it's different in this game. The tough creatures will mess you up regardless of how many hearts you have if you don't know how to fight them.

All other 3D Zeldas, and most, if not all 2D Zeldas, get considerably easier the more hearts you collect, as you can take more hits and may finish a fight even if you're not fighting optimally. The 3D Zeldas already being easy to begin with.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Sméagol

[Glen-i]

14 minutes ago, Sméagol said:

No, it's different in this game. The tough creatures will mess you up regardless of how many hearts you have if you don't know how to fight them.

All other 3D Zeldas, and most, if not all 2D Zeldas, get considerably easier the more hearts you collect, as you can take more hits and may finish a fight even if you're not fighting optimally. The 3D Zeldas already being easy to begin with.

What about upgrading Armour? Do that even a little and nothing can get past your impenetrable barrier of 15 hearts and infinite food supplies.

[Hero-of-Time]

Ah, the Zelda arguments have started again. Quite fitting as the DLC is probably going to be fully revealed tonight and Zelda will no doubt mop up the awards.  

Seriously though, can we not do this again? Let those who like the game enjoy it. At the same time, those of us who didn't like it shouldn't be called out or belittled. If you enjoyed the game then that's great. If you didn't ( me ) then that's also fine.

[Sméagol]

2 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

What about upgrading Armour? Do that even a little and nothing can get past your impenetrable barrier of 15 hearts and infinite food supplies.

I haven't considered that, because I fight like a man.

[dwarf]

2 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Ah, the Zelda arguments have started again. Quite fitting as the DLC is probably going to be fully revealed tonight and Zelda will no doubt mop up the awards.  

Seriously though, can we not do this again? Let those who like the game enjoy it. At the same time, those of us who didn't like it shouldn't be called out or belittled. If you enjoyed the game then that's great. If you didn't ( me ) then that's also fine.

Consensus is overrated. People should feel free to make criticisms, but bullshit criticisms should be shot down too.

When I said 'the cultured folk among us,' I wasn't being serious. It's fun to get away with though because fans of the game greatly outnumber the naysayers 

[Hero-of-Time]

34 minutes ago, dwarf said:

Consensus is overrated. People should feel free to make criticisms, but bullshit criticisms should be shot down too.

I don't see why. For me, if someone likes or dislikes a game, it has zero bearing on my own enjoyment. If a person thinks something in a game is garbage then so be it. I don't see the value in trying to shoot the person down with facts or statements that they clearly don't care about. Such things aren't going to change a persons mind, so why try to argue the point? It's like people take some kind of offence when another persons opinion doesn't match their own. This has been very obvious across various forums when this game gets discussed. I find the whole thing baffling. 

[dwarf]

You're right, it probably doesn't change minds, but some criticisms are more valid than others and I think it's interesting and useful to discuss them.

[bob]

I don't see why. For me, if someone likes or dislikes a game, it has zero bearing on my own enjoyment. If a person thinks something in a game is garbage then so be it. I don't see the value in trying to shoot the person down with facts or statements that they clearly don't care about. Such things aren't going to change a persons mind, so why try to argue the point? It's like people take some kind of offence when another persons opinion doesn't match their own. This has been very obvious across various forums when this game gets discussed. I find the whole thing baffling. 

Did you just shoot down his bullshit criticism?

[dwarf]

Hey c'mon @bob, there's no need to call me out or belittle me.

Edited December 7, 2017 by dwarf

[Lens of Truth]

When I first completed this I thought it was in the good-not-great category... The more I go back to it and explore every mountain, every enclave, the more I experiment, the more I discover, I've come to think of it as a true masterpiece. This is all in spite of the fact that I'd have (like many) preferred a more detailed story and full blown dungeons with different themes.

Taken as a whole, what the game achieves is astounding. Even now, after about 120 hours, I'm finding new things and the subtlety of the lore and history of the world is phenomenal. It's the closest Nintendo have ever come to realising the freedom and vision of the original Zelda concept.

Playing Xenoblade 2 I'm constantly feeling desperate to climb rocks, branches, walls, zoom up waterfalls and glide over the landscape! I can understand some changes not being to everyone's taste, but you have to applaud the willingness to chop up and change up the Zelda formula and the sheer technical accomplishment (only played on Switch). Visually, I find the limpid 'plein air' stylings to be a perfect fit and perhaps the most accomplished look in the series - it has the otherworldly cartoonyness of windwaker, with a necessary level of detail and 'physical' realism to the world. It's like playing in a flipping Studio Ghibli film!

The gentleness of the game's overall message and quiet philosophical inflection is something totally at odds with the sword wielding, monster killing adventure genre, and a kind of balanced sensibility that could only have come from Japan.

(As an aside - Skyrim felt terribly clunky and soulless after this and I traded it within a couple of days!)

What time is the game awards?? Can't wait 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Lens of Truth

[dwarf]

Correct.

I imagine BotW will see a sequel on Switch. Nintendo have ploughed so much time into the engine and art design that it would be a waste not to reuse some of it, especially given the rave reception. My prediction is that we'll have another open world game but with new abilities and traditionally-themed Zelda dungeons, which will win over some of the people who didn't enjoy this one as much.

Edited December 7, 2017 by dwarf

[Hero-of-Time]

@Lens of Truth it starts at around 1am tonight/tomorrow.