Vegetarianism

[Roostophe]

Relive the dynastygal horror show.

[LazyBoy]

It is very difficult to tell whether an animal or plant feels. As these feelings are perceptions in actuality, defining them in other life forms without anthropomorphisication is pretty much impossible.

 

So if we don't really know, isn't it better to play it safe and no kill them? I feel the same, I don't truly know if they 'feel', but I'd rather be wrong and not eat them just in case.

[Emasher]

So if we don't really know, isn't it better to play it safe and no kill them? I feel the same, I don't truly know if they 'feel', but I'd rather be wrong and not eat them just in case.

 

So what are you going to eat?

[DCK]

I guess it's not really morally defendable to eat animals.

 

For meat though, I'll always gladly be a hypocritical bastard

[Daft]

You really must explain that!

 

Its complicated....

 

By eating a chicken, the chicken provides sustenance and pleasure. The alternative life of a chicken is that it just dies having a much lesser effect in the world. Therfore the chicken has the higher purpose in life of pleasuring me....not in that way.

 

....ok, maybe it only makes sense to me. I'm just being incredibly egotistical.

 

That was my argument against my vegetarian friend who is a vegetarian for no reason. I've questioned him at length. I don't really care if anyone is a vegetarian or even a cannibal as long as there is some kind of reason behind it.

 

....ok, I'm just going to stop talking now....

[Domo Kun]

You see, I was going to bring this up in the other thread. Talking about animals having feelings or being able to feel things is symptom of being human. We try to identify with everything around us as a way of understanding it. With animals , we see patterns of behaviour which we may think are feelings or cognition but really we are just superimposing our emotional and cognitive existence onto them as a way of understanding. This is anthropomorphisication; humanising non-human forms. In reality however these may just be adaptive responses.

 

A wood lice runs out of dry, bright, cold places into warm, dark, damp environments. We may think of this as "wanting" these conditions but they are actually biologically programmed to move towards it as a survival mechanism.

 

It is very difficult to tell whether an animal or plant feels. As these feelings are perceptions in actuality, defining them in other life forms without anthropomorphisication is pretty much impossible.

 

But yeah more on this in a bit.

 

Hmm... yeah, after reading the QI book on animals I was convinced that animals are actually just computers.

 

Is intelligence not a good way of measuring animals' ability to feel?

[LazyBoy]

So what are you going to eat?

 

I was referring to animals. Plants are without doubt a series of mechanisms. Animals may be able to feel.

[Coolness Bears]

I eat meat!

 

I don't like seeing it be prepared though as that makes me feel horrible.

 

I sometimes think about becoming a vegetarian but i think i like meat too much!

[Domo Kun]

Careful, her boyfriend is still around.

 

Urm... oops... sorry... urr... no I can't get myself out of this one. Please don't kill me her boyfriend.

[Emasher]

Its complicated....

 

By eating a chicken, the chicken provides sustenance and pleasure. The alternative life of a chicken is that it just dies having a much lesser effect in the world. Therfore the chicken has the higher purpose in life of pleasuring me....not in that way.

 

....ok, maybe it only makes sense to me. I'm just being incredibly egotistical.

 

That was my argument against my vegetarian friend who is a vegetarian for no reason. I've questioned him at length. I don't really care if anyone is a vegetarian or even a cannibal as long as there is some kind of reason behind it.

 

....ok, I'm just going to stop talking now....

 

 

 

Chickens aren't the best example because they produce eggs also which we eat.

[Aimless]

I'm not a vegetarian, but it wouldn't be a particularly big leap for me.

 

I eat chicken around once or twice a week — our neighbour rears free-range hens — but I rarely eat other forms of meat. Seafood has a tendency to make me ill, so I don't really eat fish either.

 

My sister has been a vegetarian for over 10 years, so we'll often have meat-free family meals and in no way are these intrinsically 'worse' for being made of vegetables — although vegetarian lasagne will never quite topple its meaty cousin in my eyes. There's plenty of delicious vegetarian recipes out there.

 

However, I'm not a vegetarian as it seems a bit of a pointless step to make if there's no conviction behind it. So long as the animals that end up on my plate have led a pleasant and comfortable life then I have no issue with eating them; they would only be consumed by a predator or carrion in the wild anyway.

 

I don't know if animals have feelings, but their capacity to feel — or lack thereof — shouldn't be reason in itself to subjugate them. We can get away with mistreating animals, but that doesn't mean we should. Even if we're the only ones that feel better for it.

[Jamba]

I was referring to animals. Plants are without doubt a series of mechanisms. Animals may be able to feel.

 

You are a series of mechanisms but you are still alive and so are plants. It's impossible to for you to fathom whether a plant perceives it's existence or not. It's obvious that they don't do it in the same way that we do but they may still 'feel' in some way, maybe even be conscious.

 

Is intelligence not a good way of measuring animals' ability to feel?

 

Not really. You don't really have the ability to feel per say. Emotions and feelings are biological mechanisms that we have evolved to have to help with social interaction and learning with (emotional) context. Very few other creatures need this adaptation so they just don't have it (or havent got it yet). The ability to figure out a puzzle is not linked to effective social interaction directly. But again, intelligence? Not really something you can measure so you can't really say...

[LazyBoy]

You are a series of mechanisms but you are still alive and so are plants. It's impossible to for you to fathom whether a plant perceives it's existence or not. It's obvious that they don't do it in the same way that we do but they may still 'feel' in some way, maybe even be conscious.

 

To what extent? I make the ruling that that plants don't feel in any sense that makes their harvesting cruel. Animals on the other hand I believe feel and think enough that their intentional murder for unnecessary consumption is cruel. It's a product of a long time of consideration on my part, but that is what it has come down to. No I haven't any proof for it, it's a series of decisions weighing up all factors against some educated assumptions. It's a hard topic to be sure.

[Jamba]

To what extent? I make the ruling that that plants don't feel in any sense that makes their harvesting cruel. Animals on the other hand I believe feel and think enough that their intentional murder for unnecessary consumption is cruel. It's a product of a long time of consideration on my part, but that is what it has come down to. No I haven't any proof for it, it's a series of decisions weighing up all factors against some educated assumptions. It's a hard topic to be sure.

 

So you have decided about plants, thats fine cos it's open field. Nobody knows but you are still not sure that they don't.

 

I'm not happy that you used the word murder. This word is specifically used to describe the purposeful killing of another human. By using it to describe the killing of an animal shows that you are using it to anthropomorphise them, making them seem vulnerable.

 

Unnecessary consumption? Your precious foxes do that. They will get into a hen house and slaughter every bird in there and only take 2 away. The rest are just dead.

 

Its a problematic area. In evolution and survival, killing is invaluable. But as we exist as we do now, we play by different rules but we still have an anthropological history. We are omnivores biologically speaking, patricularly efficient and eating meat, fruit and certain carbohydrates.

 

We can cast off the shackles of our history to stop killing. But where do you stop? Do you stop the lion killing the gazelle and feed him a veggie alternative?

 

*About the mechanisms comment: You are made up of the same mechanism that are found in a plant with a different system for delivering fluids around you. You need to eat to survive and therefore you move, because you need to. All of your higher brain functions are just mechanisms that have developed over evolutionary time to help you survive better. On a cellular level we are quite similar to plants. Strangely at this level they are more advanced than we are.

[arab_freak]

I don't mind vegetarianism so long as you all just leave me, and my meat-eating mates, alone!

 

Agreed. Personally, I think it's dumb NOT to eat the flesh of a lower being, but I don't shove it down people's throats.

 

Also lol:

[Cube]

Agreed. Personally, I think it's dumb NOT to eat the flesh of a lower being, but I don't shove it down people's throats.

 

Also lol:

 

But bacteria and the like are on the top...

[The fish]

Relive the dynastygal horror show.

 

Thank you so much for posting that, I needed cheering up, and reliving the old times sure did help!

[Mikey]

Nothing more empowering than using your superior human status to eat animals.

 

I <3 the food chain.

[Aimless]

Agreed. Personally, I think it's dumb NOT to eat the flesh of a lower being, but I don't shove it down people's throats.

I'm not trying to make an example out of you, arab_freak, but... actually that's exactly what I'm doing, isn't it?

 

Anyway, I feel we should have respect towards animals. I'm not saying we should build them council housing and treat them like humans, but being contemptuous towards nature in general isn't a very healthy attitude, I don't think.

 

We are all cut from the same cloth, even if animals are t-shirts to our lacy, pin-striped suits.

[Ashley]

I haven't eaten anything with a face (to quote Shorty) for seven and a half years. Only ate burgers before that so no big deal to changed.

[arab_freak]

I'm not trying to make an example out of you, arab_freak, but... actually that's exactly what I'm doing, isn't it?

 

Well I don't see there's anything wrong with what I just said. I said I had an opinion, but I don't shove it down people's throats.

[Aimless]

I said I had an opinion, but I don't shove it down people's throats.

That's fine, I was just using your 'lower being' comment as a springboard for my point about respect.

[Chris the great]

well, i dont eat much meat, imntrying to lose weight a little weight (im not a chubbster, just want a 6 pack) so quorn is common for me. its really due to the price and rarity of free range chicken in huddersfield, but i found that the burgers and sausages and pies for veggies were bang hot and low in fat.

 

oh, and linda mc cartney makes sausages better then gods own.

 

i still eat meat, its a rare treat and the protine is needed. when i eat meat, i really enjoy it, but this fades when i eat alot.

[Gizmo]

I couldn't live without meat. I just couldn't. I need my steak, my pies and my pork chops.

 

I won't start a rant about how I feel about vegetarians because it will start an argument and I'll get myself in trouble.

[LazyBoy]

So you have decided about plants, thats fine cos it's open field. Nobody knows but you are still not sure that they don't.

 

I'm not happy that you used the word murder. This word is specifically used to describe the purposeful killing of another human. By using it to describe the killing of an animal shows that you are using it to anthropomorphise them, making them seem vulnerable.

 

Unnecessary consumption? Your precious foxes do that. They will get into a hen house and slaughter every bird in there and only take 2 away. The rest are just dead.

 

Its a problematic area. In evolution and survival, killing is invaluable. But as we exist as we do now, we play by different rules but we still have an anthropological history. We are omnivores biologically speaking, patricularly efficient and eating meat, fruit and certain carbohydrates.

 

We can cast off the shackles of our history to stop killing. But where do you stop? Do you stop the lion killing the gazelle and feed him a veggie alternative?

 

*About the mechanisms comment: You are made up of the same mechanism that are found in a plant with a different system for delivering fluids around you. You need to eat to survive and therefore you move, because you need to. All of your higher brain functions are just mechanisms that have developed over evolutionary time to help you survive better. On a cellular level we are quite similar to plants. Strangely at this level they are more advanced than we are.

 

I retract the use of the word murder, but it's the killing of an innocent conscious being. What's the word for that.

 

Ha, and I love the foxes comment. Seriously whenever I have this conversation with someone, they're always like that. You guys can't seem to have this conversation without trying to insult us. I fucking hate foxes. Annoying animals, always making noise at night. Then again so do my neighbours. This is not about what I like. Its about its not necessary to kill them.

 

As for the lion thing, I never said we should force this on anyone or anything. It's a choice. It has to be when the lines of what can 'feel' are so misunderstood.

 

Can you honestly say that you think plants feel? If you do, fine, but I don't. I think animals do. It's not hard to come to that conclusion.

 

And lets keep this above the belt Jamba. No more snide comments alright.