Playstation 5 Console Discussion

[Cube]

Bloomberg are claiming unrest, but nothing in their article suggests anything close to "unrest", it seems extremely mild stuff that I'm pretty sure happens in all studios. 

[Glen-i]

Honestly, I'm just reeling from the fact that someone in 2018 looked at 5 year old super mega hit The Last of Us and thought, "We need to remake this"

That's a big "WTF?" from me. Seems way too soon to consider that.

[Sheikah]

Honestly, I'm just reeling from the fact that someone in 2018 looked at 5 year old super mega hit The Last of Us and thought, "We need to remake this"
That's a big "WTF?" from me. Seems way too soon to consider that.

I know, right. Unless it's a Shadow of the Colossus style remake, it does seem a bit of a strange choice.

[Ronnie]

5 hours ago, Glen-i said:

Honestly, I'm just reeling from the fact that someone in 2018 looked at 5 year old super mega hit The Last of Us and thought, "We need to remake this"

That's a big "WTF?" from me. Seems way too soon to consider that.

Really, really bizarre. Seems a total waste of time.

[Happenstance]

On 05/04/2021 at 4:44 PM, Happenstance said:

Bought 13 Sentinels in the PSN Spring Sale. Always been interested by it and I’ve heard that the story is excellent so I’m looking forward to jumping in.

I love it’s art style as well.

Played a couple of hours of 13 Sentinels and I'm enjoying it so far. The combat in the game isn't the most engaging yet but as I'm mostly just playing for the story that's fine. The story itself is being told out of sequence, jumping from point to point so it's quite interesting trying to follow everything and piece together what's happened.

[Will]

On 4/9/2021 at 8:25 PM, Cube said:

Bloomberg are claiming unrest, but nothing in their article suggests anything close to "unrest", it seems extremely mild stuff that I'm pretty sure happens in all studios. 

Yeah it doesn’t sound anything like it, just business as usual for a game developer. Either there is something more to this or they’re just trying to sensationalize the fact that Mike Mumbauer and some of the team have left which again, is totally normal.

I have Mike as a connection on LinkedIn and have been wondering for a while where he’s going, didn’t expect to see such an odd story related to his leaving Sony.

On 4/10/2021 at 3:44 AM, Glen-i said:

Honestly, I'm just reeling from the fact that someone in 2018 looked at 5 year old super mega hit The Last of Us and thought, "We need to remake this"

That's a big "WTF?" from me. Seems way too soon to consider that.

I’d say this is more a case of doing something that can be ramped up quickly and probably was probably intended as a PS5 special edition rather than a full on remake. It makes sense for a new internal team to work on something like that and get used to tech and production pipelines than go straight in on a bigger project.

[Goron_3]

On 10/04/2021 at 9:30 AM, Happenstance said:

Played a couple of hours of 13 Sentinels and I'm enjoying it so far. The combat in the game isn't the most engaging yet but as I'm mostly just playing for the story that's fine. The story itself is being told out of sequence, jumping from point to point so it's quite interesting trying to follow everything and piece together what's happened.

I've heard amazing things about this game. I'm tempted to buy it given that it's 50% off. @Zell Not sure if I've mentioned it before but 13 Sentinels is supposed to be an incredible visual novel, with light gameplay elements too.

 

[Sheikah]

50 minutes ago, Goron_3 said:

I've heard amazing things about this game. I'm tempted to buy it given that it's 50% off. @Zell Not sure if I've mentioned it before but 13 Sentinels is supposed to be an incredible visual novel, with light gameplay elements too.

 

After checking this out it does indeed sound good, and well received. It is the sort of game that you have to wonder if it might come to Plus though, or get even cheaper down the line.

[Julius]

On 09/04/2021 at 12:36 PM, Hero-of-Time said:

Jason has posted a good article over on Bloomberg about how there is a lot of unrest over in the PlayStation camp.

Yeah, I'm not liking Jim Ryan's running of PlayStation at all at the moment. 

When I read your post on Friday, I kid you not, I laughed and then realised we were over a week removed from April Fool's Day.

First: the leak of The Last of Us remake. 

I've been thinking about it over the weekend, and the question which keeps springing to mind is "What the hell are they thinking?", not to mention my continued disapproval of Schreier's reporting stance being that it's fine to leak the existence of secretive projects. Maybe it's just me, but it's very, very rare that the existence of a game is leaked before it's official reveal and actually benefits from it (Mario + Rabbids comes to mind as one of the few examples, and that's simply because people were so against it that it leaking actually had people positioned to be blown away by how it was presented). I think back to Elden Ring's reveal at E3 2019, and everyone just immediately going "Oh, hey, look, it's Elden Ring". Can you imagine just how big that reveal would have been if it had never been leaked beforehand? Instead, I've got friends who are big fans of Game of Thrones and G.R.R. Martin but had no idea the game existed for the longest time, because it never wound up in their social media feeds, because it was expected and it felt like there wasn't nearly as much traction to it as there should have been for a game developed by From Software and worked on (to some extent) by G.R.R. Martin. 

It's an industry largely driven by hype these days, so yes, I do think you're robbing developers of their moment in the spotlight to some extent if you're revealing what they've been working on ahead of any official word. This isn't to say that a potential The Last of Us remake would be met with applause from all directions, but I know that for myself, even having just played the original for the first time last year and it easily being up there as one of my favourite games, I can totally see myself getting excited if you nail the reveal trailer (and this is a first party PlayStation game, so you know they can at least put those out in excellent fashion). Now, if and when it does get revealed, it's people rolling their eyes and going "urgh, it's The Last of Us". Hell, even just think back to The Last of Us Part II's reveal at PSX 2016 and people initially thinking it was something we'd already seen like Days Gone.

So yeah, I'm not here for Schreier leaking these things, even if he does good work in bringing light to the plight of many developers out there. I don't think anyone's even come forward to comment on the leak of TLOU's remake in particular and corroborate it, so I think it was fairly shortsighted of Jason to just outright name it (oh, and as if Naughty Dog hasn't gone through enough over the last year or so when it comes to online drama and The Last of Us). Does the article really lose that much if you don't outright say it? I don't think it would, if you just highlight the fact that PlayStation are remaking a legendary first party game from a couple of generations ago...I don't know. There are a few games that could be in my mind, and I think it's pretty different to found footage leaks where companies haven't done their due diligence in keeping their materials safely under wraps (I'm thinking the Elden Ring leaked trailer from a couple of months ago, or the Harry Potter leak we had years ago now). 

On 09/04/2021 at 8:44 PM, Glen-i said:

Honestly, I'm just reeling from the fact that someone in 2018 looked at 5 year old super mega hit The Last of Us and thought, "We need to remake this"

That's a big "WTF?" from me. Seems way too soon to consider that.

Yeah, agreed. Again, I played it for the first time last year, and that game holds up really well, not to mention the updates it's had over the last few months which have virtually cut loading times out. One of those where if it was a big visual upgrade beyond what The Last of Us Part II managed I could see it doing well with a reveal trailer, but being shared with us for the first time in this way just completely kills it in its tracks for me. I'm just thinking of the first game in Part II's engine when I read this, and well...anyone who's played Part II understands. 

But back to the article itself, yeah, I agree with H-o-T in not liking how Jim Ryan has run PlayStation since taking over. The problem with only having tentpole releases and being this risk-averse is that you end up with, well, what cinema (and the box office in particular) largely became over the last decade: a collection of reboots and sequels founded on already beloved IP decimating smaller projects. And don't get me wrong, there are some directors who can still thrive when times are like this (Christopher Nolan and Hideo Kojima are quite alike in this regard I feel), but those are very rare exceptions. I think of how Days Gone flourished in Japan in particular, and I do wonder if Jim Ryan and co. just couldn't give less of a damn about Japan (think it's become increasingly clear over the last few months that they don't give them a second thought), and I think it sucks massively that Sony Bend won't get another crack at it - and this is as someone who hasn't played the game themselves, but I mean, it's a massive first party game which is free on PS+ this month, and has been part of the PS+ Collection for PS5 since launch too? Having only big games just puts too much pressure on the team, but more than that, it stifles creativity. Think about some of the biggest trilogies in film and more often than not you'll find directors and writers working on other projects inbetween, and I think it helps to stave off burnout, but also to just flex other creative muscles and ideas. Christopher Nolan in particular comes to mind again, because between Batman Begins and The Dark Knight you had The Prestige, and then between The Dark Knight and The Dark Knights Rises you had Inception; there's a "one for you, one for me" kind of attitude with it, such as we see with many actors who take up bigger gigs so that they can comfortably work on projects their passionate about (I think of those under the Disney umbrella, and actors like Adam Driver in particular). 

No doubt Naughty Dog has other things in the works, and so does Bend seemingly, but as a producer and distributor, PlayStation needs to recognise that they're getting in the way of some of the industry's most talented minds. Couple this article with the closure of Japan Studio (what the hell happened to their rumoured Rayspace game? And what's going to become of that heavily, heavily rumoured Silent Hill game, seeing as Keiichiro Toyama left with others some six months before the studio closed to start their own studio?), and I do think it's a bit concerning.

The difference in messaging between Jim Ryan and Shawn Layden is scarily different, though, and I do think it's very telling that I can't find a Wikipedia article on Jim Ryan. Make of that what you will. It's very clear today - and I think was to some extent back then - that this was a key part of the internal power struggle which resulted in Layden leaving. There isn't a face to attach to PlayStation these days - Shuhei Yoshida has been given the Lucius Fox treatment, Adam Boyes becoming the CEO of Iron Galaxy, Andrew House stepping down, and of course Shawn Layden stepping away from PlayStation.

Don't get me wrong: Jim Ryan is a terrific businessman, even if he does say some silly things at times. I still think PlayStation is doing the right thing by focusing on single player games, partnering with studios like Jade Raymond's, and still (for now) being the dedicated home console of choice for most of the big Japanese developers, whether it be marketing deals, timed exclusivity, etc. I still care about the games first and foremost, and for now and the foreseeable future, they're still going to be there.

And, of course, it's on Mumbauer and his team to quite an extent that it would have been a TLOU remake (my first thought was genuinely that this was to get to grips with a new engine), as they're the ones who proposed it, but what does it say that they seemingly proposed a remake to a game less than a decade old, and not in the greatest need of it? I guess the underlying message to the article is that it hints not that PlayStation are demanding these games, but that their own internal teams are playing it safe to some degree, which is even more concerning to me. Also, I'm more surprised that they didn't propose an Uncharted remake (which in my opinion needs it much more than The Last of Us, because that game definitely feels aged) or spinoff, and I don't understand the surprise that a TLOU remake would end up at Naughty Dog. Like...yeah, that does seem like it was pretty inevitable. 

I haven't seen it here, but obviously elsewhere, this has renewed the beaten to death console war narrative. Xbox is doing interesting and different things to PlayStation, as is Nintendo, but I suppose my main concern with Xbox and their single player games in particular right now is how their new studios are actually going to be managed. Buying up studios left and right is going to count for nought if they aren't effectively managed and overseen, and while I want to see them do well, I do think Phil Spencer and co. have a lot to manage over there, because unnatural growth is almost always going to result in some growing pains. We'll have to wait and see, but I hope that Playstation doesn't make a mistake in turning away from what made the PS4 such a runaway success. 

While I do think quite a bit of Schreier's article is spiced up for obvious reasons, the messaging in Layden's E3 2014 speech I'm sure went pretty under the radar back then, and sounds like generic E3-presenting stuff, but is very different today to the direction they seem to be taking today. Whereas the PS4 seemed to be a place to experiment and grow, the closing of Japan Studio and the secret San Diego team at PlayStation effectively going bust before it was ever made official, never mind all of the internal changes leading up to the release of the PS5, has made for a bit of a rocky ride, looking in from the outside at least. Hopefully it smooths over soon. 

On 05/04/2021 at 4:44 PM, Happenstance said:

Bought 13 Sentinels in the PSN Spring Sale. Always been interested by it and I’ve heard that the story is excellent so I’m looking forward to jumping in.

I love it’s art style as well.

Good to hear you're enjoying it! If I'm not mistaken, I think @WackerJr has also been looking at playing that games over the last few months. I picked it up myself back at launch but it's just been gathering dust on my shelf as other games have taken precedent and I've got busy with other things, but maybe I'll get to it after Yakuza 6!

Managed to find the buried thread for it from last summer. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Julius

[Ronnie]

2 hours ago, Julius said:

I've been thinking about it over the weekend, and the question which keeps springing to mind is "What the hell are they thinking?", not to mention my continued disapproval of Schreier's reporting stance being that it's fine to leak the existence of secretive projects. Maybe it's just me, but it's very, very rare that the existence of a game is leaked before it's official reveal and actually benefits from it (Mario + Rabbids comes to mind as one of the few examples, and that's simply because people were so against it that it leaking actually had people positioned to be blown away by how it was presented). I think back to Elden Ring's reveal at E3 2019, and everyone just immediately going "Oh, hey, look, it's Elden Ring". Can you imagine just how big that reveal would have been if it had never been leaked beforehand? Instead, I've got friends who are big fans of Game of Thrones and G.R.R. Martin but had no idea the game existed for the longest time, because it never wound up in their social media feeds, because it was expected and it felt like there wasn't nearly as much traction to it as there should have been for a game developed by From Software and worked on (to some extent) by G.R.R. Martin. 

Great post in general but I especially agree with this. The internet seems to adore Schreier, so he'll continue to leak because it makes people notice him.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Ronnie

[Ronnie]

2 hours ago, Julius said:

But back to the article itself, yeah, I agree with H-o-T in not liking how Jim Ryan has run PlayStation since taking over. The problem with only having tentpole releases and being this risk-averse is that you end up with, well, what cinema (and the box office in particular) largely became over the last decade: a collection of reboots and sequels founded on already beloved IP decimating smaller projects.

You see Sony's risk-averse strategy with their cookie-cutter exclusives in the PS4 era. The vast majority being story-based third person action/adventure games. Now personally that's one of my favourite genres so I'm fine with it, but there's so little variety in their output these days. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Ronnie

[Ashley]

Are we talking about Sony as developers here or publishers? It's hardly uncommon for studios to find a genre they groove with and stick to that. But as publishers they actually published fairly diverse things during the PS4 era that aren't story-driven third person action/adventure; Drive Club, Knack, MLB, Dreams, Sackboy, Everybody's Gone to Rapture, Unfinished Swan, Everybody's Golf etc.

Is it weird TLOS is (was?) being remade? Sure, a little. Is it surprising? No not really. 

[Glen-i]

40 minutes ago, Ashley said:

Are we talking about Sony as developers here or publishers? It's hardly uncommon for studios to find a genre they groove with and stick to that. But as publishers they actually published fairly diverse things during the PS4 era that aren't story-driven third person action/adventure; Drive Club, Knack, MLB, Dreams, Sackboy, Everybody's Gone to Rapture, Unfinished Swan, Everybody's Golf etc.

Is it weird TLOS is (was?) being remade? Sure, a little. Is it surprising? No not really. 

I can't speak for others, but I'm thinking of publishers. Developers can definitely fall into a genre they excel at, but I can't help but notice that Sony are slowly narrowing the kind of games they give the go-ahead over time. You mention some of the games in the PS4 era, but I can't help but notice that it's, well, noticeably less than the PS3 era (and the PS2 era before that)

Back then, I was under the impression that it was because of increasing difficulty and costs when it comes to game development over the past decade, but if this report is accurate, it shows that Sony are starting to think that only multi-million smash hits are worth investing in.

Which sounds fine from a purely business point of view, but fans who only have access to a Sony console for whatever reason, as well as developers that may want to work with Sony on a project, they may find themselves suffering as a result.

It's actually quite similar to The Pokémon Company's worrying steps in regards to what they helped to fund over the past few years. Outside of the main Pokémon games, what Pokémon titles have there been that didn't have some kind of microtransaction stapled to them? Not many.

It's gotten a little better, what with Rescue Team DX and the upcoming New Pokémon Snap, but it's not as varied as it was back in the days of the DS. I can't help but see similarities between that and this direction Sony is taking. And it's not good.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Glen-i

[Ronnie]

1 hour ago, Ashley said:

Are we talking about Sony as developers here or publishers? It's hardly uncommon for studios to find a genre they groove with and stick to that. But as publishers they actually published fairly diverse things during the PS4 era that aren't story-driven third person action/adventure; Drive Club, Knack, MLB, Dreams, Sackboy, Everybody's Gone to Rapture, Unfinished Swan, Everybody's Golf etc.

Is it weird TLOS is (was?) being remade? Sure, a little. Is it surprising? No not really. 

I don’t think anyone’s calling the TLOS remake surprising. Weird, stupid, a waste of time and effort, maybe but not surprising, especially in this day and age. But as the article suggests it’s a money driven business decision, nothing more. And really pointless given how often they’ve re-released the game.

And re: that list of games, obviously there’s a handful of titles that aren’t story driven third person adventure games but that’s a relatively small list, especially if you only consider their big blockbuster releases. But hey they’ve found a formula that works for them and sells lots, so good for them. I’ve noticed more and more comments about their openworld games getting a bit repetitive and stale now though.

[Glen-i]

2 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

I’ve noticed more and more comments about all openworld games getting a bit repetitive and stale now though.

Fixed that for you.

Only a little sorry for that open-goal.

[Cube]

"story driven third person adventure games" is such a vague description that can describe some extremely different games. Horizon Zero Dawn, The Last of Us, Uncharted, God of War, Ocarina of Time, Super Mario Odyssey, infamous, Fable, Alan Wake, Control, Metroid Other M, Pikmin, Gears of War, Mass Effect.

[Ronnie]

It is a vague description but it's also one that happens to fit with pretty much the entirety of the PS4's blockbuster tentpole releases: Horizon Zero Dawn, The Last of Us, God of War, Uncharted, Infamous, Ghost of Tsushima, Spider-Man, Days Gone, Death Stranding. To be fair, Detroit and Ratchet are two that don't fit the mould. 

Like I said, I love those kind of games so I'm not complaining, but I don't think there's any debate that the PS4's AAA exclusives are built to a formula.

19 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Fixed that for you.

Only a little sorry for that open-goal.

I agree with you actually, but there are exceptions. BOTW and Red Dead 2 at least added to the openworld conversation.

[Sheikah]

It is a vague description but it's also one that happens to fit with pretty much the entirety of the PS4's blockbuster tentpole releases: Horizon Zero Dawn, The Last of Us, God of War, Uncharted, Infamous, Ghost of Tsushima, Spider-Man, Days Gone, Death Stranding. To be fair, Detroit and Ratchet are two that don't fit the mould. 
Like I said, I love those kind of games so I'm not complaining, but I don't think there's any debate that the PS4's AAA exclusives are built to a formula.
I agree with you actually, but there are exceptions. BOTW and Red Dead 2 at least added to the openworld conversation.

You say built to a formula but many of those games are very different, and there's a good amount of totally new IPs there too. Compare this to Nintendo who rely on almost all sequels for their big games, or Xbox who have very few exclusives, and they're still doing a much better job than everyone else.

[Ronnie]

15 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

Compare this to Nintendo who rely on almost all sequels for their big games

Goal posts being shifted. Ok fine... Horizon is getting a sequel this year, The Last of Us just got a sequel and is/was being remade for some reason, God of War is a sequel, so is Uncharted 4, and the last Infamous, Spider-Man got a sequel last year and is getting another soon. Ditto Ratchet although to it's credit, that's a platformer/shooter. All publishers put out sequels, it's pretty much universal these days. I'm not even sure why we're talking about sequels anyway, nor what "they're still doing a much better job than everyone else" means, or adds to the discussion. The conversation was about Sony under Jim Ryan being risk averse. Big picture wise, there should be zero debate that Playstation have a very samey template when it comes to their blockbuster releases. Obviously the games mix things up. Obviously the nine biggest PS4 games don't play identically, that would be stupid, but there IS a template.

[Glen-i]

53 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

It is a vague description but it's also one that happens to fit with pretty much the entirety of the PS4's blockbuster tentpole releases: Horizon Zero Dawn, The Last of Us, God of War, Uncharted, Infamous, Ghost of Tsushima, Spider-Man, Days Gone, Death Stranding. To be fair, Detroit and Ratchet are two that don't fit the mould. 
Like I said, I love those kind of games so I'm not complaining, but I don't think there's any debate that the PS4's AAA exclusives are built to a formula.
I agree with you actually, but there are exceptions. BOTW and Red Dead 2 at least added to the openworld conversation.

You say built to a formula but many of those games are very different, and there's a good amount of totally new IPs there too. Compare this to Nintendo who rely on almost all sequels for their big games, or Xbox who have very few exclusives, and they're still doing a much better job than everyone else.

Gotta agree with @Ronnie on the point he just made. Nintendo's biggest IP's may rely on sequels, but those IP's cover a wider variety of genres then Sony's current big hitters.

Zelda has action adventure covered while Smash Bros is a unique take on the fighting game. Mario Kart is a cartoon racer with Animal Crossing being some kind of life sim(?)

And when Nintendo commissions another company to handle one of their IP's, it normally ends up being a different genre. (Hyrule Warriors and Cadence of Hyrule are good examples of this, both Zelda games, both play noticeably differently to the source material)

And then you've got games made by other smaller studios like Kirby (2D Platformer with a focus on the combat more than the actual platforming) and Pokémon (Monster collecting RPG).

It's all come from years of curating a franchise out of them, while Sony tends to drop IP's after a while and rely on third party support to cover other genres.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Glen-i

[Sheikah]

Goal posts being shifted. Ok fine... Horizon is getting a sequel this year, The Last of Us just got a sequel and is/was being remade for some reason, God of War is a sequel, so is Uncharted 4, and the last Infamous, Spider-Man got a sequel last year and is getting another soon. Ditto Ratchet although to it's credit, that's a platformer/shooter. All publishers put out sequels, it's pretty much universal these days. I'm not even sure why we're talking about sequels anyway, nor what "they're still doing a much better job than everyone else" means, or adds to the discussion. The conversation was about Sony under Jim Ryan being risk averse. Big picture wise, there should be zero debate that Playstation have a very samey template when it comes to their blockbuster releases. Obviously the games mix things up. Obviously the nine biggest PS4 games don't play identically, that would be stupid, but there IS a template.

Why am I now talking about sequels? Because you're complaining that the PS4's exclusive games are all very similar ("third person adventure games") and "made to a formula". I'm saying that there's nothing more similar and formulaic than sequels to games we have played before, of which we see many on other consoles. Your list is also incomplete, you're missing off new exclusive games like Bloodborne too. In terms of third person new IP exclusives on PS4 there was Bloodborne, Horizon, Days Gone, Concrete Genie, Ghost of Tsushima, Death Stranding, The Last Guardian, The Order 1886. How many new IP exclusives (that were big games) came out on Switch or X1?

Maybe a lot of Sony's exclusives are third person but they're all very different games, and at least a lot of them are new IPs. You're making the point that Sony are risk averse - yet Sony released far more big new IPs than the other two last gen. Far more.

[Sheikah]

Gotta agree with [mention=4353]Ronnie[/mention] on the point he just made. Nintendo's biggest IP's may rely on sequels, but those IP's cover a wider variety of genres then Sony's current big hitters. Zelda has action adventure covered while Smash Bros is a unique take on the fighting game. Mario Kart is a cartoon racer with Animal Crossing being some kind of life sim(?)And when Nintendo commissions another company to handle one of their IP's, it normally ends up being a different genre. (Hyrule Warriors and Cadence of Hyrule are good examples of this, both Zelda games, both play noticeably differently to the source material)And then you've got games made by other smaller studios like Kirby (2D Platformer with a focus on the combat more than the actual platforming) and Pokémon (Monster collecting RPG).It's all come from years of curating a franchise out of them, while Sony tends to drop IP's after a while and rely on third party support to cover other genres.

But that variety comes at the cost of fatigue. Nintendo's big games are mostly sequels to games we have seen time and time again. Can you really talk about diversity in their big games when a lot of that comes from the 10th (or whatever) iteration of Mario Kart? Or Smash, Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon? In terms of staleness or the "seen that before" feeling that diversity is supposed to combat, Nintendo's output simply does not do that, because their series are ancient and made to a formula. The other games you're mentioning like Hyrule Warriors are some of the most stale, overdone games out there, even if more work than normal was put into the Zelda version.

People can complain that there's a lot of third person "adventure" games on PS4 but as you can see, within that category the games can be very different (e.g. compare Bloodborne to The Last of Us, or to Spiderman - completely different games). In fact "third person adventure" is such a ridiculous catch all descriptor that seems to have been made up here to try and win an argument, given how much diversity there can be within that category. It'd a bit like complaining that the SNES had one too many 2D games.

[Glen-i]

1 hour ago, Sheikah said:

But that variety comes at the cost of fatigue. Nintendo's big games are mostly sequels to games we have seen time and time again. Can you really talk about diversity in their big games when a lot of that comes from the 10th (or whatever) iteration of Mario Kart? Or Smash, Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon? In terms of staleness or "seen that before" feel, Nintendo have that down. The games you're mentioning like Hyrule Warriors are some of the most stale, overdone games out there. Warriors games are complete tripe, even if more work than normal was put into the Zelda version.

 

People can complain that there's a lot of third person "adventure" games on PS4 but as you can see, within that category the games can be very different (e.g. compare Bloodborne to The Last of Us). In fact "third person adventure" such a ridiculous catch all descriptor that seems to have been made up here to try and win an argument, given how much diversity there can be within that category. At least a lot of these games are totally new IPs, set in new worlds with new combat mechanics, characters and story.

Well, it's clear that you and I have different views on what constitutes variety.

It seems to me like you prefer to have multiple different flavours of a similar genre, (different settings, characters and mechanics that said different setting might provide), while I would much rather prefer to have different genres completely, even if I have "been there, done that" many times before.

For the record, I completely reject your insinuation that "X series has similar games, so they're all fundamentally the same" but I get the impression that you already guessed that from our previous discussions on that very topic, so I won't bother going through that song and dance again. Agree to disagree?

Edited April 13, 2021 by Glen-i

[Sheikah]

17 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Well, it's clear that you and I have different views on what constitutes variety.

It seems to me like you prefer to have multiple different flavours of a similar genre, (different settings, characters and mechanics that said different setting might provide), while I would much rather prefer to have different genres completely, even if I have "been there, done that" many times before.

But that's the thing, many are not even the same (or similar) genre. Because "third person adventure" is not a genre, it's a broad term that can describe entirely different games. Spiderman is a completely different genre to TLOU. In fact Ghost of Tsushima is an open world game, whereas Last Guardian isn't. Yet both can be defined as "third person adventure" games. In fact so can Pokemon Sun/Moon, and Zelda, and Mario Odyssey - so I guess Nintendo are putting out too many of these now? I'm sure you can see, this is a pointless and unhelpful way of categorising.

Quote

For the record, I completely reject your insinuation that "X series has similar games, so they're all fundamentally the same" but I get the impression that you already guessed that from our previous discussions on that very topic, so I won't bother going through that song and dance again. Agree to disagree?

I'm saying that it's a false diversity. It's diverse only to newcomers - anyone who has been with Nintendo for the last 20 years will find very little different about their main games.

Ronnie was talking about PS4 games being made to a "formula", which is exactly how games like Smash, Mario, Mario Kart and Pokemon are made.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Sheikah

[Ronnie]

Sony released new IP last gen like Horizon and Days Gone primarily because they didn't have much that was recognisable and that would fit the mould for their blockbuster games going forward (PS All Stars Battle Royale might have been a clue there). Now that they do, expect sequels to Horizon, Ghost and Days Gone.

1 hour ago, Sheikah said:

In fact Ghost of Tsushima is an open world game, whereas Last Guardian isn't. Yet both can be defined as "third person adventure" games. In fact so can Pokemon Sun/Moon, and Zelda, and Mario Odyssey - so I guess Nintendo are putting out too many of these now? I'm sure you can see, this is a pointless and unhelpful way of categorising.

Pokemon, Zelda and Odyssey can't be described as story-driven, a qualifier you conveniently left out. And anyway, one is an JRPG, and the latter a platformer. Horizon, God of War, Infamous, Ghost of Tsushima, Days Gone, The Last of Us, Spider-Man, Death Stranding all belong in the same category. Obviously those are the games that Sony's audience respond to, I haven't read Schreier's article, but I assume that's the point he's making. 

I didn't include The Last Guardian because that's actually a very different experience, kudos to them. Same with Ratchet.

But Days Gone and Ghost in particular are prime examples of a formula growing stale, based on the reception to those games. Sony need to mix it up his gen.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Ronnie