Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Ashley]

25 minutes ago, LazyBoy said:

I mean who the fuck is Roy? 

[Dcubed]

32 minutes ago, Julius said:

Oh yeah, I totally agree! It's a strange one. I love it, but I agree it's odd to go with this character of all of the third party characters now. Not to mention the long list of Nintendo characters people have been hoping for forever.

It does make me wonder if this was a Sakurai or Nintendo choice - I can't remember as I haven't been following Fighter Pass 2 as closely, did they say who chose the additional fighters like they did with the first Pass? 

Fighters Pass 2 is all Nintendo's choices, not Sakurai's.

[Glen-i]

Spoiler

This has me quite anxious. On one hand, this has the potential to finally beef up Final Fantasy's utterly woeful selection of music. (When Dragon Quest is doing better, you know you goofed up)

But on the other hand, it is Square Enix, who have been notoriously stingy with music. Let's face it, Smash's composers would definitely trip over themselves to remix that soundtrack, so it's not on the composer's end.

Personally, I think it'll be a Dragon Quest situation, more than 2 songs but no new remixes.

Still, FF VII has a great soundtrack. And I definitely have a few tracks I want to see in Smash.

Obvious one being One Winged Angel.

The trailer uses the Advent Children arrangement, but I see two issues with that. First of all, Advent Children isn't even a game. Secondly, it's stupid long. No normal Smash fight is lasting long enough to hear all of it.

The original would be my choice, because it's shorter and it's more well known. Vocals in game soundtracks was basically unheard of back then. So hearing a full on choir must have been mind blowing in the 90's.

Second obvious song pick has to be JENOVA.

Man, that song's just great. Big fan of it. That said, while I'd be fine with the original version (and it's what I expect), I do secretly want them to use the remix from FF VII Remake.

Now that's what the kids might call "a banger"

It also wouldn't hurt to sneak in some songs from other Final Fantasies as well. Nobuo Uematsu is a composing legend and there's loads of material to use. It'd be a pleasant surprise if that happens, but I think Square's gonna Square and stubbornly insist on FF VII music only.

 

[Glen-i]

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Julius]

10 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

  Let's talk about music (Hide contents)

This has me quite anxious. On one hand, this has the potential to finally beef up Final Fantasy's utterly woeful selection of music. (When Dragon Quest is doing better, you know you goofed up)

But on the other hand, it is Square Enix, who have been notoriously stingy with music. Let's face it, Smash's composers would definitely trip over themselves to remix that soundtrack, so it's not on the composer's end.

Personally, I think it'll be a Dragon Quest situation, more than 2 songs but no new remixes.

Still, FF VII has a great soundtrack. And I definitely have a few tracks I want to see in Smash.

Obvious one being One Winged Angel.

The trailer uses the Advent Children arrangement, but I see two issues with that. First of all, Advent Children isn't even a game. Secondly, it's stupid long. No normal Smash fight is lasting long enough to hear all of it.

The original would be my choice, because it's shorter and it's more well known. Vocals in game soundtracks was basically unheard of back then. So hearing a full on choir must have been mind blowing in the 90's.

Second obvious song pick has to be JENOVA.

Man, that song's just great. Big fan of it. That said, while I'd be fine with the original version (and it's what I expect), I do secretly want them to use the remix from FF VII Remake.

Now that's what the kids might call "a banger"

It also wouldn't hurt to sneak in some songs from other Final Fantasies as well. Nobuo Uematsu is a composing legend and there's loads of material to use. It'd be a pleasant surprise if that happens, but I think Square's gonna Square and stubbornly insist on FF VII music only.

 

Spoiler

Agreed, One Winged Angel and J-E-N-O-V-A are a lock in my opinion. Boy do I love J-E-N-O-V-A Quickening from Remake, so glad that game won for best soundtrack of the year.

Anyways, after those, I think the most likely candidates would be Jenova Absolute and Birth of a God:

But like you, I think we'll be lucky to get that; I fully expect Square to not allow any other tracks to be included. It's a massive shame, because one of my favourite parts of the Ultimate soundtrack so far has been instances where they've taken slower songs and made them battle-worthy (like they did with Aria of the Soul from Persona 5). 

Loads of tracks I'd love to hear handled that way, like Those Chosen By The Planet, Aerith's Theme, Cosmo Canyon, Cid's Theme, the Main Theme, Tifa's Theme, and City of Ancients, perhaps handled like it was in Remake in Seven Seconds Till The End. 

But I'm not holding out much for any of that to come to fruition  as for other tracks from the games, there are so many I'd love for them to do, but like you say, I'm not expecting that either 

 

[Ronnie]

I joked about it but I didn't think they'd actually reveal another anime swordsman ffs.

But happy for everyone who's hyped, sounds like the reveal has gone down well.

[Dufniall]

I'm not too fussed about the new character, and I'm still happy with my original roster and haven't picked up the Fighter Passes. Would have loved a more quirky character though.

That said, this part had me in stitches:

Spoiler

 

[Glen-i]

7 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

I joked about it but I didn't think they'd actually reveal another anime swordsman ffs.

He's not just a anime swordsman. He's the anime swordsman. There's a good argument for him starting that trend in gaming.

EDIT: In response to that GIF @Vileplume2000 posted, I love what happens soon afterwards.

Spoiler

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Glen-i

[Julius]

Presentation is going to be at 22:00 GMT on the 17th. 

 

[Hero-of-Time]

Spoiler

I would love to see some Advent Children representation. The Jenova theme from that movie is my favorite rendition of the song.

 

 

[Glen-i]

2 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

  Music Talk (Reveal hidden contents)

I would love to see some Advent Children representation. The Jenova theme from that movie is my favorite rendition of the song.

 

 

I'm actually quite intrigued about what you think about Sephiroth. (It's been long enough, I think it's fine to mention who it is now)

Seeing as you were hoping for Sora, do you think Sephiroth is a good enough compromise as far as Square Enix goes?

[Hero-of-Time]

1 minute ago, Glen-i said:

I'm actually quite intrigued about what you think about Sephiroth. (It's been long enough, I think it's fine to mention who it is now)

Seeing as you were hoping for Sora, do you think Sephiroth is a good enough compromise as far as Square Enix goes?

He's a decent addition and fits a hell of a lot better than what Steve does. 

As for Sora, I'd like to see him in the game mainly because I think he fits well and could have a very interesting move set.

To be fair, it really makes no difference whatsoever to me as I no longer play the game and the new characters aren't enough for me to return. It became far too bloated for my liking and these constant additions just push me further away from the game.

[Jonnas]

Totally out of left field pick! To be fair, Sephiroth was THE videogame villain during his time, so he's significant in gaming history. Plus, any excuse to bring some actual Final Fantasy content is good, that's literally the most glaring gap in SSBU's content.

For those of you who haven't played FFVII, and think Sephiroth is only a bland edgy swordboy, please take a look at his outlandish signature move (and likely Final Smash):

 

12 hours ago, Julius said:

I think this is my favourite Smash reveal to date by far, I've never been so hyped up by one before, and had a smile on my face the entire time. It singlehandedly has me buying the second Fighters Pass, and I only dip in and out of the game for local co-op sparingly now as it is.

Guess that's going to have to change now 

Just to remind you, you don't need to buy the entire Pass to get Sephiroth. You can just buy him individually, if that's your choice.

(Also, a reminder that the 2nd Pass brings Min-Min, Minecraft Steve, and 3 more undisclosed characters)

10 hours ago, LazyBoy said:

Dragon Quest I get, but this - look if we're opening it up to well known characters regardless of platform affiliation then where's Lara, Dante, MC, Kratos and so on.

All of those choices are subjective, as their importance is in the eye of the beholder. Considering the choices are being made in tandem by Nintendo and their respective companies:

• Lara Croft belongs to Square as well, and I honestly feel she would be a worthy newcomer. But there's the question if either Nintendo or Square-Enix believe that Tomb Raider is relevant enough as a franchise over the likes of FF and DQ (especially since those two are homegrown franchises, whereas TR is something they acquired). Heck, even something like Nier Automata might be more important to both companies. Lara was famous in Europe and the US, but does she hold the same cultural relevance in Japan?;
• Dante's importance lies below Mega Man, Resident Evil, Street Fighter, and Monster Hunter. Of those four, I'd wager Mega Man's presence is more important to Nintendo than Capcom, while the other series are important for both companies. I think the importance of DMC as a franchise can get overblown sometimes;
• Halo gets a backseat to Banjo-Kazooie (Nintendo's first pick) and Minecraft (Microsoft's first pick, and also surely something Nintendo wants). I'm sure Master Chief comes next on the list, but there is the question of how receptive Nintendo is to that franchise;
  • (Incidentally, I think that's also the biggest strike against franchises like Doom and Mortal Kombat appearing in Smash);
• Good luck getting Sony to allow Kratos near a Nintendo console But if that was possible, sure, he'd be a very strong candidate.

 

[Glen-i]

24 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

Just to remind you, you don't need to buy the entire Pass to get Sephiroth. You can just buy him individually, if that's your choice.

@Julius It's also worth pointing out that if you do go for the Fighter's Pass, it's cheaper than buying the 6 characters individually. But if you absolutely sure you don't want Min Min or Steve, then go for it.

But if you do buy Sephiroth, you'll be locked out of buying the whole Fighter's Pass. So keep that in mind.

26 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

All of those choices are subjective, as their importance is in the eye of the beholder. Considering the choices are being made in tandem by Nintendo and their respective companies:

• Lara Croft belongs to Square as well, and I honestly feel she would be a worthy newcomer. But there's the question if either Nintendo or Square-Enix believe that Tomb Raider is relevant enough as a franchise over the likes of FF and DQ (especially since those two are homegrown franchises, whereas TR is something they acquired). Heck, even something like Nier Automata might be more important to both companies. Lara was famous in Europe and the US, but does she hold the same cultural relevance in Japan?;
• Dante's importance lies below Mega Man, Resident Evil, Street Fighter, and Monster Hunter. Of those four, I'd wager Mega Man's presence is more important to Nintendo than Capcom, while the other series are important for both companies. I think the importance of DMC as a franchise can get overblown sometimes;
• Halo gets a backseat to Banjo-Kazooie (Nintendo's first pick) and Minecraft (Microsoft's first pick, and also surely something Nintendo wants). I'm sure Master Chief comes next on the list, but there is the question of how receptive Nintendo is to that franchise;
  • (Incidentally, I think that's also the biggest strike against franchises like Doom and Mortal Kombat appearing in Smash);
• Good luck getting Sony to allow Kratos near a Nintendo console But if that was possible, sure, he'd be a very strong candidate.

Was wondering when you'd show up with a nerdy post with reasons for Smashy things.

Lara Croft is a strange case. Say she does get in, do you go with the realistic modern Lara or PS1 era triangle breasts Lara? You go with the realistic one and I can't help but feel she'll look a bit bland. I'm not a huge Tomb Raider fan, but what does she bring to the table?

Dante is such a weird pick for Capcom. He's popular, sure. But Capcom hasn't even gotten Monster Hunter in there. I can't see any other new series being first in line before that inevitability happens. Seriously, I'm so certain Monster Hunter is happening around the time Mon Hun Rise comes out.

Agree with everything you said in the Halo paragraph. It's Microsoft's next obvious franchise at this point. But I think barring a third Fighters Pass (Never say never, but I doubt it), that's it for Microsoft in Smash Ultimate.

Do we even need actual Sony characters at this point? Smash is already nicking the most iconic Sony characters anyway.

Spoiler

 

[WackerJr]

I think the FFVII remake will have done a lot to revitalise Sephiroth’s popularity.  I haven’t played either version of FFVII, but remember reading game character popular contests at sites like GameFAQs years ago & I was surprised at just how popular he was (along with the likes of Chrono, Cloud, Mario & Link).

Does he quite hold the same popularity today? I don’t think he quite does, but there will surely still be a large fanbase for him which will only rise when / if the next part of the FFVII remake comes out.

I think he’s a great addition to the roster.  I don’t know if it makes it more or less likely for Sora to appear, but it’s good to see Nintendo continuing to work with Square-Enix.

I expect the presentation next week will also include some Mii outfits to dash hopes of some of the wishes-for characters appearing.

Edited December 11, 2020 by WackerJr

[Jonnas]

58 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Was wondering when you'd show up with a nerdy post with reasons for Smashy things.

Quick reminder that Cloud Strife, as of the remake, should shoot to the top of your dancing tier list.

58 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Lara Croft is a strange case. Say she does get in, do you go with the realistic modern Lara or PS1 era triangle breasts Lara? You go with the realistic one and I can't help but feel she'll look a bit bland. I'm not a huge Tomb Raider fan, but what does she bring to the table?

Just go with the Wario solution and giver her two outfits. As long as the hitboxes stay the same, it's possible.

Her moveset could then be something that takes a bit from both versions. Dual-wielding guns for normals, bow&arrow for a neutral special. Plus, her stiff running and jumping animations back in the PS1 era is kind of legendary, so have her movement mimic that (not unlike with the Belmonts). For the rest, her moveset can be Indiana Jones inspired (maybe with a higher focus on the bow and dual guns).

Finally, she can have a huge T-Rex for a Final Smash.

58 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

But Capcom hasn't even gotten Monster Hunter in there. I can't see any other new series being first in line before that inevitability happens. Seriously, I'm so certain Monster Hunter is happening around the time Mon Hun Rise comes out.

My main thing against that theory is that MH is already represented. If they were to have a character, launch window would be it, or at least early in the first Fighter's Pass.

Furthermore, the Monster Hunter team is notoriously guarded in allowing their characters to join fighting games (the Marvel vs. Capcom team had to fight a lot just to get a representative in Infinite), which adds to my doubt.

58 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Do we even need actual Sony characters at this point? Smash is already nicking the most iconic Sony characters anyway.

True, even Heihachi is a Mii costume.

I still occasionally laugh at the thought that, having the opportunity to pick one Metal Gear and one Devil May Cry rep for PS All-Stars, they went with Raiden and nu!Dante. Whoever picked that roster had such misplaced priorities.

44 minutes ago, WackerJr said:

I expect the presentation next week will also include some Mii outfits to dash hopes of some of the wishes-for characters appearing.

Crossing my fingers for Geno. It's time to rip that band-aid at last.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Jonnas

[Glen-i]

12 minutes ago, WackerJr said:

Does he quite hold the same popularity today? I don’t think he quite does, but there will surely still be a large fanbase for him which will only rise when / if the next part of the FFVII remake comes out.

I'm not gonna argue that popularity doesn't play a part in third party character choices, because it definitely does, but how important it is feels like it shifts depending on the company.

Take Solid Snake, he was put in Brawl through a request from Kojima, a personal friend of Sakurai's. Sonic happened through a similar method. It's pretty obvious Sega ran to Sakurai and said something along the lines "No-one told us you were letting guest characters in! We should make a deal with Sonic". It explains nicely why Sonic was added so late in Brawl's development cycle. Brawl goes on to become the best selling game in the series and third party characters become a staple with Smash 4. I'll forever appreciate Smash Brawl for turning Smash Bros into a gaming history celebration rather than just Nintendo.

Anyway, back to my main point. The importance of popularity fluctuates between companies. For big players like Square and Capcom, the big hitters are the obvious choices. Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, Dragon Quest, etc.

But then you have the likes of Bayonetta, Joker and Banjo. All popular in different ways, but not on the levels of Cloud, Ryu and Sonic. Joker is the breakout star of Atlus' surprisingly popular spin-off series, Persona. Banjo is popular mostly through 90's nostalgia and Bayonetta was popular with the Smash players and clinched her the ballot win. Bayonetta 2 was a cult favourite for the WiiU, so she was popular in a niche sense. (She's more recognisable these days because of Smash, so not quite as niche now)

But then there's Terry. He's the obvious SNK rep, but it feels like that choice was less "Terry is popular" and more "SNK is a significant footnote of video game history" Which it is, it deserves a spot because of that.

It's always fascinating to think of what happens behind those closed doors. There's nothing quite like Smash Bros these days. I would pay top money for a documentary on how all these companies are bought together for the sake of a silly fighting game where you can have Link and Cloud team up to fight Ganondorf and Sephiroth in Green Hill Zone with Baseball bats.

[Aperson]

All we need now is Eggman and all of Big Bad Bosses can be playable in Smash

 

 

[Glen-i]

4 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

Quick reminder that Cloud Strife, as of the remake, should shoot to the top of your dancing tier list.

Just go with the Wario solution and giver her two outfits. As long as the hitboxes stay the same, it's possible.

Her moveset could then be something that takes a bit from both versions. Dual-wielding guns for normals, bow&arrow for a neutral special. Plus, her stiff running and jumping animations back in the PS1 era is kind of legendary, so have her movement mimic that (not unlike with the Belmonts). For the rest, her moveset can be Indiana Jones inspired (maybe with a higher focus on the bow and dual guns).

Finally, she can have a huge T-Rex for a Final Smash.

Oh right, I forgot about my Dancing tier list, I think it's time to update that.

You know what, you kinda sold me on Lara Croft a bit. Her being Smash's answer to Indiana Jones is something I can get behind. As long as it acknowledges her low polygon roots in some way through her moveset, I can get behind that. More female characters in Smash can't be a bad thing as well. (I still would rather prefer Sora from Square, mind)

9 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

My main thing against that theory is that MH is already represented. If they were to have a character, launch window would be it, or at least early in the first Fighter's Pass.

Furthermore, the Monster Hunter team is notoriously guarded in allowing their characters to join fighting games (the Marvel vs. Capcom team had to fight a lot just to get a representative in Infinite), which adds to my doubt.

True, even Heihachi is a Mii costume.

I still occasionally laugh at the thought that, having the opportunity to pick one Metal Gear and one Devil May Cry rep for PS All-Stars, they went with Raiden and nu!Dante. Whoever picked that roster had such misplaced priorities.

I never realised that about Marvel VS Capcom, that's not a good sign. But I can't discount the fact that it has a more significant presence than most game IP's that don't have a playable character. It just feels so bizarre.

Smash gets the "Blatant advertising" accusation thrown at it all the time but PS All-Stars is what happens when you make a Smash style game with the focus being to advertise your games as cheaply as you can and that's why it flopped hard.

I have no proof of this but I like to think that game was what made Sakurai go after the likes of Cloud, Ryu and Joker. Just to rub it in.

[Glen-i]

Yep, here we go again! Stupid Useless Tier List Updates!

Spoiler

This tier list was last updated before Ken and Incineroar were revealed.
This tier list creator hasn't been updated to include Sephiroth yet. He would go in the Playstation category.

• Persona 5 had to be awkward and be a Sony exclusive, so I had to make a category seperate from Bayonetta's so Joker can fit in somewhere.
• This creator only has the default version of Hero. Erdrick and Solo would be in NES, while Eight would be in a new "PS2" category.
• While I'm at it, the Koopalings are all in NES, while Alph would go in WiiU. Every other alternate character costume are in the same category as their default look.

Spoiler

This list was made before Joker was revealed.
In this situation, Sephiroth definitely goes in "They Probably Set Him Loose".

I never did get around to updating this one after my debate with @Jonnas, so here's what has changed.

• Link and Corrin moved down to "Pretty Close Matchup"
• Roy and Lucina moved up to "Pretty Good Chance of Winning" thanks to a combination of a mistake on my part and Jonnas' big Fire Emblem Nerd Brain.
• Ike, Robin and Toon Link moved down to "Godzilla's Got This"
• Moved Red (Pokémon Trainer) to "Would probably try and make friends with him"

There were a couple of placements we never managed to agree on, so I left it open to comments from other members. But none of you listened. It's like this isn't massively important! So I'm gonna leave these hanging placements for you to hopefully do better on this time.

Should the Animal Crossing characters swap places?

Should Lucas move from "Definitely Running Away" to "Pretty Close Matchup"?

Spoiler

This list was last updated before Ken and Incineroar were revealed.
Sephiroth feels like he belongs in "Blatant Refusal" unless someone proves otherwise.

• Cloud rockets up to "Dancing Legend" because HOLY CRAP! He's been holding out on us!
• Ken and Incineroar just ooze "Embarassing Dad" vibes and I expect their dancing to reflect that.
• I don't care how good you might be, if you're stuck in a flower pot, you're gonna topple over sooner or later.
• Joker and Min Min have got legit skills
• The Dragon Quest XI Hero can learn Sword Dance. You have to be at least decent to do that.
• Terry put into "Pretty Sweet Mover" because of Jonnas' explanation.
• Oh no, Byleth is a teacher, you ever seen a teacher that can bust a move? Didn't think so.
• Poor Steve, Kinda hard to do elaborate dance moves when you can't even bend your limbs.

Oh, Banjo, please stop. Stick to instruments...

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Glen-i
Updated Best Dancer List

[Jonnas]

These are the only tier lists we need. Not much to say on the first two tier lists (especially since I already voted on those Godzilla questions), but regarding the dancing:

• Yeah, Sephiroth would refuse. If he did try, he'd likely be a Dad at Wedding;
• I am surprised by Banjo's awkwardness. He looks to be so rhythmically gifted;
• Steve, Alex, Zombie, and Enderman can be seen dancing with the Squid Sisters in their debut trailer. This doesn't change their tier, just thought it was good supporting evidence;
• Byleth's placement seems right: "Dancer" is the only non-exclusive class that Byleth can't access. Dancing is supposed to be tied to the "Charisma" stat, but the story doesn't support it (Lorenz is supposed to be a better dancer than Claude, but their stats do not reflect this). Once the school dance came around, Byleth was eager to awkwardly leave the party;

 

17 hours ago, Glen-i said:

• Honestly, when it comes to Terry, I have nothing to go on. Fully expecting Jonnas to fill in the blanks there.

Excellent question. Surprisingly, there's not much concrete info on Terry's dancing skills. I do know he loves basketball (which requires good footwork), his girlfriend sings in a bar, and he's good friends with The Duck King:

I figured the answer would lie on some obscure piece of dialogue between them, but even then I couldn't find anything (except that...well... apparently, Terry raps (0:49-1:06). Companies make the weirdest things...)

Anyway, my guess is that he's a Sweet Mover. He does have good footwork, enthusiasm, and the Rising Tackle.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Jonnas

[Glen-i]

10 hours ago, Jonnas said:

• I am surprised by Banjo's awkwardness. He looks to be so rhythmically gifted;

He's a beast on the Banjo, but the poor guy struggles to move in anything other than a clumsy manner in his games. Kazooie is the one who normally handles the acrobatics, and she's more the type to stand on the sidelines and chuck sarcastic barbs at anyone else dancing.
That said, he's a lot more nimble in Smash. Then again, most characters are.

10 hours ago, Jonnas said:

Excellent question. Surprisingly, there's not much concrete info on Terry's dancing skills. I do know he loves basketball (which requires good footwork), his girlfriend sings in a bar, and he's good friends with The Duck King:

I figured the answer would lie on some obscure piece of dialogue between them, but even then I couldn't find anything (except that...well... apparently, Terry raps (0:49-1:06). Companies make the weirdest things...)

Anyway, my guess is that he's a Sweet Mover. He does have good footwork, enthusiasm, and the Rising Tackle.

Thanks, updated the list.

[Glen-i]

 

[markderoos]

I like to barge in and and then question one random minor detail regarding the long lists on totally random stuff which @Glen-i put far too much time in. So, here’s attempt 1:

“Hey @Glen-i why is DK in SNES instead of Arcade? Is it because his Smash costume resembles his Rare design?”

“And if that is indeed the logic behind your choice, then why did you put Mario in his 3D design in Arcade?”

*grabs popcorn*

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by markderoos

[Glen-i]

1 hour ago, markderoos said:

I like to barge in and and then question one random minor detail regarding the long lists on totally random stuff which @Glen-i put far too much time in. So, here’s attempt 1:

“Hey @Glen-i why is DK in SNES instead of Arcade? Is it because his Smash costume resembles his Rare design?”

“And if that is indeed the logic behind your choice, then why did you put Mario in his 3D design in Arcade?”

*grabs popcorn*

 

Nope, brush up on your DK lore, because they're two different gorillas.

The arcade DK is now known as Cranky Kong. This was established in Donkey Kong Country. Why do you think the game opens up with Cranky on a girder playing the arcade Donkey Kong title theme?

The DK in all games afterwards (Which includes Smash) is the Grandson of the arcade DK.