Nintendo Switch - Happy Switchmas Everyone!

[Sheikah]

Did it have diversity? It didn't have the Bing thirst Parkes games of the other consoles at all. Also, I think you're being disingenuous if you're saying Wii had diversity and helped it sell over 100m. It sold because of the gimmick, the marketing, the image, the casual appeal etc. You know this, so implying it was because of a diverse library is a lie.

 

My point being, is that Wii u not selling doesn't provide evidence of a lack of diversity or Nintendo games not appealing to a wide range of people (you yourself has said if the same games were on ps4 they could sell loads more) . There are far more, bigger factors why the consoles do and don't sell.

So you're saying the Wii sold because of the gimmick - fine? I would agree that it sold a lot of units due to a gimmick. And then I'd go on to say that success attracted third parties with a variety of games.

 

Anyway this is moving away from the point of the Wii U - it HAS games that have sold several million copies, yet the system is not massively selling buckets when these new games come out. That's because it's mostly the same people who already have the system and previous games buying the new games. A lot of this is due to the games Nintendo are making - both the types (e.g. lots of platformers) and the style. And because they are all made by one company, diversity in their output will obviously be very limited.

 

It's not like on other systems where you have lots of your realistic racers, sports games, big FPS titles, RPGs, indie titles, etc - all made by different companies. Each of those types of games can attract very different audiences. We know this must be true because if you look at individual game sales they are nowhere near the several million system sales that the PS4 has. People are buying different types of games.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Sheikah

[dazzybee]

@Sheikah But I guess it's their reason why the Wii u isn't selling. I feel diversity is a very small issue, I think the gaming droughts is a bigger issue, I think image is a bigger issue, I think the lack of services gamers want now is a bigger issue.

 

I think if NX improves the image through its marketing/messaging, if they have the services people want but have the level of output of both 3ds and Wii U added together it would sell far far better than Wii u. If they do manage third parties too then that will help it even further.

 

I think we may just need to accept it may be a Nintendo box though, we either like it, or not. Just can't see things changing.

[Rummy]

Absolutely. People saying Mario kart and a mario platformer aren't diverse is a bit ridiculous. one is a racing game, one is an action platforming game.

 

But is the diversity and variety the same as say...Need for Speed vs Ratchet and Clank? That's a notable difference.

 

Looking on metacritic

Wii U 80-100 scores: 58

Xbox one: 90

PS4: 153

 

More than the library of games and diversity, I think diversity and library of quality games counts. I think those stats tell us why the Wii U isn't so attractive. for a 5 year period (and xbox one and PS4 still have strong legs) the wii U releases one 80% game a month on average. the Xbox double that, PS triples it. if someone likes 25% of all those 80% games then on the wii u they have 3 games a year, xbox 6 and PS 9 games a year.

 

Obviously it isn't that straight forward, but 3rd parties supporting a console strongly (and indies flocking in) improves the chance of a console owner getting value for money from their console.

 

 

Having said that, if Nintendo weren't involved heavily on the software side it would drop further, so they are doing an amazing job supporting the Wii U, from a software perspective. Much like the gamecube this is so very deja vu... which makes me somewhat optimistic for the NX

 

Whilst I definitely agree both diversity and quality counts - I think metacritic and those numbers reflect the fact there's simply more on other systems. Simply by having more you'll get more hits meeting the threshold you've set there. However I think that's fine - it shows there's more out there, and with more surely you're getting more variety, more diversity, and even for some of the less popular games - it's delivering something to someone who isn't getting that on a system with less.

 

 

Yes, Nintendo can develop a lot of stuff, yes there is some diversity - however on a system level(again, this is the NX thread not a 'Nintendo as a developer' thread) - there simply won't be enough diversity across the whole of the larger picture to make the system as appealing as the competition on software alone, because Nintendo simply cannot or rather currently do not supply that wealth of content. Consider the fact it's a hybrid, my comparison of MK7+MK8 becomes almost more relevant in that front because it's taking one more racer out of the already limited line-up! It does of course, open up the possibility you've mentioned about freeing resources to create new titles however, and that's interesting to think about.

 

 

And so it comes back all the way round to the previous - if software alone won't be enough, what are they going to do to help sell the system otherwise? Hybrid if true is one great step for the console imo, that's quite a potential selling point right there - but it all needs to be utilized and executed well with other features on par with if not exceeding the competition.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Rummy

[Ashley]

Absolutely. People saying Mario kart and a mario platformer aren't diverse is a bit ridiculous. one is a racing game, one is an action platforming game.

As a software developer Nintendo are hugely diverse.

Mario kart, Pikmin, Art Academy, Donkey Kong Country, Starfox, Splatoon, Smash Bros, Zelda, Super mario bros U, Wii Party U, Nintendo Land, Captain Toad.

 

I can't off the top of my head think of a more diverse developer.

 

I think the basic arguments are:

 

Nintendo as a software developer are themselves diverse

Nintendo as a console manufacturer do not attract diversity (through third parties) thus the console lacks diversity

Thus, should Nintendo themselves become more diverse (than they already are) to plug this diversity gap? Or should they try and get third parties back? Or both?

[Pestneb]

But is the diversity and variety the same as say...Need for Speed vs Ratchet and Clank? That's a notable difference.

For me, yes. Obviously that is subjective but the difference is so large that they are incomparable. If I want to play a racing game it would be NFS vs MK, R&C/SMW wouldn't get considered.

 

Yes, Nintendo can develop a lot of stuff, yes there is some diversity - however on a system level(again, this is the NX thread not a 'Nintendo as a developer' thread) - there simply won't be enough diversity across the whole of the larger picture to make the system as appealing as the competition on software alone, because Nintendo simply cannot or rather currently do not supply that wealth of content.

If it was the XBOX/Playstation we were discussing sure, but on Nintendo platforms Nintendo as a developer are very much relevant. Nintendo are a defining developer on all their hardware. Nintendo games are the centre of the dish..when people buy a Nintendo console they buy into that flavour.

Now they obviously need to get some accompaniments and side dishes, starters and dessert as well as appetising drinks to fill out the meal, but they are unique for that very reason - as a developer they are core to the console.

 

Consider the fact it's a hybrid, my comparison of MK7+MK8 becomes almost more relevant in that front because it's taking one more racer out of the already limited line-up! It does of course, open up the possibility you've mentioned about freeing resources to create new titles however, and that's interesting to think about.

would you, after all this REALLY consider MK8 and 7 as being diverse? those two titles are justified because they reach two separate audiences. The only sensible business approach would be to branch out. Maybe they will commit those resources in to F-zero, Wave race or F-zero now....or even we could get a more serious racer (although I imagine that would be more likely to be a collaboration than in house type of thing)

 

 

And so it comes back all the way round to the previous - if software alone won't be enough, what are they going to do to help sell the system otherwise? Hybrid if true is one great step for the console imo, that's quite a potential selling point right there - but it all needs to be utilized and executed well with other features on par with if not exceeding the competition.

 

you know.. People at Nintendo have an insight to their business that all of us on this forum lack. We can say what we perceive, but some things just won't work. I don't know about you guys, but often I have tried to do something and it doesn't turn out the way I planned. Nintendo employ people who are just as fallible as us, but are also capable at being awesome.

They may do something expected, but I imagine that the NX will be something we didn't see coming, even with these leaks. We may disagree, we may agree, but only time will tell us if they did the right thing or not... and even then we'll never be able to prove our ideas would have worked out any better for them.

 

 

I'm not really well placed to say what Nintendo need to change to reach out to others.. I'm better placed to say what Microsoft and Sony would need to do to reach me : peace:

 

But I'm more confident and optimistic for what the NX will turn out to be now than I was a year ago. I'm thinking it might be time to invest in some shares!

[liger05]

I think the basic arguments are:

 

Nintendo as a software developer are themselves diverse

Nintendo as a console manufacturer do not attract diversity (through third parties) thus the console lacks diversity

Thus, should Nintendo themselves become more diverse (than they already are) to plug this diversity gap? Or should they try and get third parties back? Or both?

 

Become more diverse to attract third parties.

 

If third parties can see an audience for the genre of games they produce they will release titles on Nintendo hardware.

 

 

Ninty have to cultivate there own audience.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

 

 

Could Excite Bike be this? Excite Bike 64 was incredible, still is; would love this over another Excite Truck.

 

These games still feel a bit too arcadey in comparison.

[Rummy]

They need an N64-era Rare or two under their belt really. Most of the best/most successful games on N64 were either Nintendo made or Rare made and gave a bit of diversity there(I mean even there let's take SM64, BK64 and DK64 - all platformers with different aspects, feels and mechanics to them).

 

Really though - my concern is they can't manage the diversity stakes at the moment. So they need to make the system itself good/great. As I've said just above - hybridding it into a handheld/home console combined sitting between PS4 and XB1 capabilities is really, really, good. It's not enough alone though. We need the standard online features that the competition has, cross-buy/purchases between consoles, speed, an interesting online ecoverse but not isolated(so miiverse maybe, but ties to popular social medial), a DECENT AMOUNT OF STORAGE, etcetc.

 

They need, imo, to make this sell by its functionality alone. If they make this awesome kickass console, and jump-start it with some good first party titles, and get it sold and into homes/hands - then the diversity and developers will hopefully follow. BotW is a start, even though I hated the fact they've done a TP with it, but it needs some more. A true, open, SM64 style sequel(less linear than Galaxy) would be a great title to have on its release to get it sold. Another example I said before is if they can get a Monster Hunter on it and trying to replicated what MH3DS/MH3U did where you can play locally with a 3DS, play with a 3DS near a WiiU, have online you can play with WiiU with voice chat etc. As a handheld/home console hybrid(as I've already said) they can really come to unify alot of their social initiatives and make this a truly social console - and social is so in right now. Go out, meet people with handheld portion of NXs, become friends - play/chat online with them when at home. Right now I can't think of anything better than a game like Monster Hunter to really kick off of that with.

 

The NX isn't harmed just by its own possible flaws, it's harmed just as much by those of the Wii and WiiU. Many fans have been burned, and so imo they really need to make this relevant as a system alone to get it into people's hands and hopefully attract back developers.

 

 

(EDIT: Soz @Pestneb was posting before I saw your post there. Feel we're somehow on completely different lines. I wasn't comparing within genres - I was comparing the platformer vs racer as you had - but where I'd see more between the two(R&C vs NFS, as opposed to SM3DL&W vs MK). Also was definitely NOT suggesting diversity between MK7 and MK8, that was my issue. Definitely agree that if hybridding gave us an MK and an F-Zero or Excite title that would be SO much better for the system and diversity. As for business insight...well, that's an easy cop-out :p Yes everyone's falliable, but they clearly very much overestimated theirselves with the WiiU if you look at the meetings and projected sales/numbers and later revisions. Business is always up and down - but you have to be prepared to adjust and change, mix it up, Nintendo seem very un-keen to do that sometimes)

Edited August 17, 2016 by Rummy

[Pestneb]

basic

Thus, should Nintendo themselves become more diverse (than they already are) to plug this diversity gap? Or should they try and get third parties back? Or both?

 

That's much more focused :P

 

I don't think anyone would be adverse to third parties releasing more games on the NX, and they should make some effort towards bringing them back in, but that is a more complicated issue than most people seem to acknowledge on here judging from past "discussions".

3rd parties have essentially edged themselves out of the Nintendo space by neglecting it so much, but I think strategic partnerships could work well, with Nintendo working to bring in specific titles onto their platform and support developers. Indies and smaller studios are probably the best place for Nintendo to look at in the short term, but getting EA and activision and ubisoft, maybe take two and warner bros would be important.

 

!!VGC alert!! publishers in the top 10 with sales:

PS4 ~75M

Activision:26M

EA:22M

Take Two: 11M

Bethesda: 6M

Sony:8M

 

X1 ~40M

 

Activision: 15M

Take Two: 5M

Microsoft:7M

Bethesda 4M

Ubisoft: 3M

EA 3M

 

Wii U ~40M

Nintendo: 38M

 

Activision 41M

Nintendo 38M

EA 25M

Take Two 16M

Bethesda 10M

Sony 8M

Microsoft 7M

Ubisoft 3M

 

 

Activision and EA seem to be the two main publishers Nintendo needs to draw in. And actually, Nintendo are the only platform holder who potentially can have the 3 biggest publishers on it's system.

 

As far as Nintendo diversifying themselves, I don't think they need to do too much. They need to leave a certain space for 3rd parties - although they also need to create that space. Having a powerful handheld however possibly could draw in EA and activision, to have the handheld version on NX (and consequentially on the Nintendo home console too)

 

I think Nintendo do try to be diverse already... supporting just one platform would just enable them to express that more clearly.

[Rummy]

Just watching the 6 min gameplay vid in the Yooka-Laylee thread - Nintendo need to definitely try and get Playtonic on board for the future. I've also said before, but they should have tried to help court the devs of A Hat in Time which is essentially a tribute to the similar style games of old. If I'm honest I think what Nintendo really need to do is what Sony did - get a lot more input and representation from the West, and give some more say to people there.

[drahkon]

Nintendo need to definitely try and get Playtonic on board for the future.

 

I think it's a given Playtonic will stay multiplatform, i.e. Nintendo, MS, Sony and PC.

And I'm pretty sure they won't neglect the NX.

[Hero-of-Time]

Just watching the 6 min gameplay vid in the Yooka-Laylee thread - Nintendo need to definitely try and get Playtonic on board for the future. I've also said before, but they should have tried to help court the devs of A Hat in Time which is essentially a tribute to the similar style games of old. If I'm honest I think what Nintendo really need to do is what Sony did - get a lot more input and representation from the West, and give some more say to people there.

 

Myself and lostmario were on about this the other night. Having both watched the recently released Rogue Leader video we were both left wondering why Nintendo didn't try to snap up the Factor 5 talent. They were technical wizards and had worked well with Nintendo in the past.

 

There were a load of western studios that either went bust or downsized during the last generation. Nintendo should have used that as an opportunity to add more western developers to their own portfolio. This could have brought a new set of games forward and for a bargain price.

 

I've brought this up before but Retro Studios should have been the one to fly the flag for the western side of Nintendo. The style that they brought to the table with the Prime series was completely different to what the Japanese side of things were doing for the company. They complimented each other, with Retro making a game that appealed to the western market, while Nintendo themselves were able to to continue with there more colourful games. Same could be said about their partnership with Silicon Knights and Eternal Darkness.

 

A lot of people weren't that pleased to see that Retro were making the DKC games. Both games turned out great but Nintendo have many other Japanese studios that could have worked on the franchise, leaving Retro to continue to appeal to their western fans. Instead another cute and colourful title was added to an already packed lineup of such games.

 

I think when people are talking about diversity it's more than a genre thing. It's also how a game looks. The list I posted many pages back had some outstanding games on them but most are bright and colourful, regardless of the genre. This doesn't bother me at all as I do appreciate this visual style, however, many people don't and if you want something more realistic then then Nintendo really doesn't provide.

[Glen-i]

Just watching the 6 min gameplay vid in the Yooka-Laylee thread - Nintendo need to definitely try and get Playtonic on board for the future. I've also said before, but they should have tried to help court the devs of A Hat in Time which is essentially a tribute to the similar style games of old. If I'm honest I think what Nintendo really need to do is what Sony did - get a lot more input and representation from the West, and give some more say to people there.

 

This makes a lot of sense, I'm sure Playtonic in particular would love to work with Ninty. After all, their studio are focusing on the WiiU version and letting Team 17 handle the porting to other platforms.

 

Now let's assume the rumours of a Smash Bros. NX are true. They could always sweeten the deal by providing a small little representation. Say what you will. Smash Bros representation sells games.

Of course, it's unlikely. But there's always the possibility that Cloud got in to say to Square, "We'd like to see FF7 Remake make it's way to the NX.

 

That's a very big IF. And I've got absolutely no proof of that.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Glen-i

[Rummy]

I think it's a given Playtonic will stay multiplatform, i.e. Nintendo, MS, Sony and PC.

And I'm pretty sure they won't neglect the NX.

 

I'm no longer very keen on 'pretty sure' when it comes to Nintendo

 

I don't think Playtonic WILL neglect the NX, but I think there's some definite uncertainty there especially if they're working/partnering with Team17 as a publisher. Nintendo need to ensure they re-assure and get them on board if there at all any possible doubts. I do appreciate that Playtonic are aiming to have Yooka-Laylee on WiiU - but what if it burns them or Team17? What if they just don't make enough sales for what was put in? Nintendo need to prepare for and address that if it occurs. I've sadly said it in the YL thread - I'd personally get it for my PS4 over my WiiU(unless there's a noticeable price saving). Many people are dual-consoled(if not more) and the decision on where to go comes down to personal preference and system - if you had both which would you go for? I'm playing the same game, but I'd prefer to do it on my PS4 because of its system level features that the WiiU doesn't give me. I realise some may still go WiiU btw, even if they have a PS4 etc, but I do think the majority may choose the PS4 over the WiiU.

 

An NX port though...hmm. That, is unknown territory. If I had a choice between my PS4 and the NX, if the NX is doing enough as a system for me to buy it(so all the things I've covered already) - then I'd probably go for the NX due to the edge of the handheld-ness of it. It's an interesting time - Nintendo need to be on the ball though.

 

This makes a lot of sense, I'm sure Playtonic in particular would love to work with Ninty. After all, their studio are focusing on the WiiU version and letting Team 17 handle the porting to other platforms.

 

Now let's assume the rumours of a Smash Bros. NX are true. They could always sweeten the deal by providing a small little representation. Say what you will. Smash Bros representation sells games.

Of course, it's unlikely. But there's always the possibility that Cloud got in to say to Square, "We'd like to see FF7Remake make it's way to the NX.

 

That's a very big IF. And I've got absolutely no proof of that.

 

Definitely agree with that. Smash Bros NX in itself has some work to do - Smash 4, frankly, was not up to scratch given its predecessors. However throwing a little bit of that credit/appearance would be a very tight goodwill gesture to someone like Playtonic; especially if you consider some these guys used to be tight as fuck with Nintendo back in the day. We all know what Nintendo inspires in our hearts and how it makes us feel - don't think that doesn't apply to game devs either. There's only so much you can keep going back to your abusive ex before you move on, though.

 

Nintendo need to throw all their perceived perceptions out of the window, listen to the consumers, and just go balls to the wall. That is, in my opinion, the single greatest choice that has led to the PS4 being such a massive success so far this generation.

[Mr-Paul]

I feel like lots of people missed the point made over the last week that Nintendo's problem isn't necessarily diversity of genres, but diversity of style.

 

I'm going to make another food based analogy.

 

Let's say Nintendo make crisps. They make normal crisps, Hula Hoops, Wotsits, Doritos, the lot. Plenty of different types. Unmatched even.

 

The problem is, they only come in Salt & Vinegar flavour.

 

This is great for some people, they love Salt & Vinegar, so they're happy to just buy Nintendo's crisps.

 

However, some people don't like Salt & Vinegar at all, so despite liking crisps, won't buy Nintendo's.

 

Then you have the people who like Salt & Vinegar, but don't just want to eat Salt & Vinegar. They'll go to another crisp maker that has more flavours, a multipack with Ready Salted, Cheese & Onion, and a bit of Smoky Bacon for that meatiness. They might not get as much Salt & Vinegar, but there's plenty of other flavours to keep them happy.

 

In the last generation, Nintendo's marketing convinced everyone they needed that Salt & Vinegar. They got people who had never tried Salt & Vinegar before to try it, and even convinced those who don't usually like Salt & Vinegar that they would like their crisps even though they were Salt & Vinegar.

 

Problem is, this generation, they've only managed to convince that first group who really like Salt & Vinegar that their crisps are worth buying.

 

I don't like Salt & Vinegar...I do like Nintendo! But I would prefer the multipack!

[Happenstance]

I like salt & vinegar squares

[Glen-i]

I like salt & vinegar squares

 

I don't. But I'd totally try Salt & Vinegar Doritoes.

[Clownferret]

I think the NX will do big numbers if as expected it's a hybrid. If they really go for it and utilise the portable feature with Pokemon and monster hunter get FIFA and COD on board and confirm they are revisiting some of their beloved franchises like metroI'd, fzero etc they could have an absolute monster on their hands.

[Hero-of-Time]

Speaking of FIFA, I was watching the EA conference last night and they were showing the new mobile FIFA game. I wouldn't be surprised if the NX got this version instead of the console version.

[dazzybee]

Speaking of FIFA, I was watching the EA conference last night and they were showing the new mobile FIFA game. I wouldn't be surprised if the NX got this version instead of the console version.

 

Ive said this too, wouldn't surprise me if they got mobile versions of the third parties. How did it look

 

Ps I love salt and vinegar crisps!

[Hero-of-Time]

Ive said this too, wouldn't surprise me if they got mobile versions of the third parties. How did it look

 

Ps I love salt and vinegar crisps!

 

It looked garbage.

[nekunando]

It looked garbage.

 

Isn't that just FIFA..?

[Rummy]

I think the NX will do big numbers if as expected it's a hybrid. If they really go for it and utilise the portable feature with Pokemon and monster hunter get FIFA and COD on board and confirm they are revisiting some of their beloved franchises like metroI'd, fzero etc they could have an absolute monster on their hands.

 

It's got potential, a lot of potential, but being a hybrid alone will not be enough. It HAS to have features on par with the competition imo, regardless of whether they see themselves as in the same competing sphere.

 

Speaking of FIFA, I was watching the EA conference last night and they were showing the new mobile FIFA game. I wouldn't be surprised if the NX got this version instead of the console version.

 

I don't know a lot about the backend side of things and how easy/hard it is to code for the Tegra(/presumed NX CPU) but there certainly is a risk of it being lumbered more with mobile versions rather than fuller versions - especially if companies are less willing to take a risk.

 

How long's a game on FIFA usually though? Getting a console-worthy version on the NX is again another great idea. It's a big seller and again - imagine having a quick match with a mate on your lunch break or something, but also having the ability to play against them online at home too. A portable home console just sings to me the more and more I think about it, but it NEEDS to be executed right.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I feel like lots of people missed the point made over the last week that Nintendo's problem isn't necessarily diversity of genres, but diversity of style.

 

 

I remember making a similar point not too long ago. For me, it's one of the biggest issues I have with Nintendo.

 

Also, the lists piss me off a little bit. There's quite a few in here. Oh, Nintendo do cater to racing fans...there's Mario Kart. There's a fighting game over there...Smash Bros. Space shooter? Oh, there's StarFox for that.

 

Imagine telling somebody that you could only watch one Science Fiction film. Or that you could only read one Fantasy novel. Or you could only listen to one Post-Rock band. That's where the lack of variety is. Or, least, partly. There's many different styles of Science Fiction. There's 2001, there's Alien, there's Deep Impact, there's ET, District 9, Independence Day, Solaris, Children of Men, 1984, etc.

 

I want to see diversity on Nintendo's console. That does not mean I want to see Mario & Co's face plastered on absolutely fucking everything. Whimsical is nice, but there's not really anything a bit more serious or something more emotionally driven. I can't remember the last Nintendo game I played that brought me to tears or a game that made me feel relief, or even that feeling where your balls retreat into your body because you're scared.

 

If Nintendo don't do those types of games, then that's fine. But at least allow us to access them through their console. Gaming is a huuuuge form of entertainment now. I play more than I watch television or go to the cinema, by far. There's variety in what I play on other systems, so why shouldn't there be a similar variety on Nintendo's systems?

[Ronnie]

I remember making a similar point not too long ago. For me, it's one of the biggest issues I have with Nintendo.

 

Also, the lists piss me off a little bit. There's quite a few in here. Oh, Nintendo do cater to racing fans...there's Mario Kart. There's a fighting game over there...Smash Bros. Space shooter? Oh, there's StarFox for that.

 

Imagine telling somebody that you could only watch one Science Fiction film. Or that you could only read one Fantasy novel. Or you could only listen to one Post-Rock band. That's where the lack of variety is. Or, least, partly. There's many different styles of Science Fiction. There's 2001, there's Alien, there's Deep Impact, there's ET, District 9, Independence Day, Solaris, Children of Men, 1984, etc.

 

And they're all from different film studios. Nintendo is one developer.

 

Sure it would be great if they created five different racers, five different brawlers and a dozen different arcade space shooters per generation, but that's just slightly unrealistic.

 

Nintendo themselves create amazing games, in a variety of different genres, with more diversity than any other developer out there by far. The problem is and has always been in recent times, a lack of third party support.