Kav Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 This whole Xenoblade isn't really nintendo is just bizarre. We're getting into serious pent territory. Kav has said exactly what I was going to say, it's as Nintendo as Uncharted is Sony! It IS a nintendo game, doesn't matter who they were, when they bought them or ANYTHING. It is a nintendo game, that's what we're debating, the NOW, what games are nintendo and its studios developing. Xenoblade was one of them, X is another. I know it's fun to slag nintendo off as much as possible, but give them credit where it's due. But I guess in this case Xenoblade and X go completely against what people are slagging.... Hmmm. And also, isn't what they've done exactly what people recommend they do? Buy studios to do new work, different work to them?! Yeah Dazzy but it's japanese so it doesn't count.
Ashley Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I'll never understand the problem some people seem to have with Nintendo or their games being too Japanese. It's one of the the best things about them! Anyone that doesn't appreciate this should just accept the fact and move on to something else. Nintendo aren't going to change in that regard (bloody well hope not anyway) and nor should they have to. *skips past rest of the thread as I'm at work* I don't think anyone has a problem with them being very Japanese, but rather they are very isolated and still under the belief that the Japanese way is the only way to be. The industry has shifted to a fairly equal (if not more Western-sided) weighting over the years, but Nintendo continue to operate in a Japanese-focused approach and their attitudes and relationships with Western developers feel slightly...isolated. They're not alone in causing the issues obviously (before anyone roasts that chestnut), but they certainly seem very wary of even considering the West as an important area.
Sheikah Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I'm not contesting that given time, a franchise will become part of the Nintendo identity (hell, DK got invited into the 'Mario family' and was well known to be involved with Mario from the arcade days). All I'm saying is that at the point at which Xenoblade arrived, given not much had likely changed since acquisition, it didn't feel like Nintendo actually had anything to do with it other than funding. Which there's totally nothing wrong with. I was just saying that Nintendo themselves only really had a hand in actually making one of the games I really liked on the Wii, whereas they did more in the past. This wasn't supposed to be a full blown argument over what constitutes a first party game, just an observation. Maybe developer acquisition is the way forward for them given other console manufacturers do this so successfully.
david.dakota Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 II don't think Nintendo are doing an "incredibly poor job" at all. Not even close. I simply think the biggest problem is they're not releasing enough games - it's not the price, it's not the gamepad, it's not the style of games, it's simply they don't have support and they're not releasing enough. I would be incredibly confident that if they released one big game a month from mario kart onwards they'd sell extremely well. For a games company - one selling a hardware platform - not to be releasing games IS incredibly poor. Its abysmally poor, it beggars belief. Its as bad as it gets really.
Daft Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 On the superficial side is what I meant. Something that easily affects publicity, marketing, public image. Why else would it be a flaw to be too ethnocentric? Zelda and Final Fantasy 6 aren't any worse from Skyrim or Baldur's Gate due to different pacing. (Pokémon doesn't feel that Japanese. When I was a kid, I thought it was an American production, what with all the Anglo names. Even in the games, it only gets that Japanese in a few Johto cities) Also, narrative, pacing and art style are American as long as you have that preconception of what "American" looks like. I mean, even the famous "huge-eyes" manga art style was originally inspired by Disney characters. The only thing that makes it Japanese now is the fact that we know that it's typically Japanese. And nowadays, if I showed you a Disney comic, would you be able to tell if the author was American, Italian or Brazillian? Only if you knew what each looked like, or if someone makes cultural-specific reference. Basically, it's a preconception that can change, and from a truly global perspective, having homegrown influences in your work shouldn't even matter, otherwise ethnocentricity is a-OK as long as it's the USA's. Honestly not sure how anyone could not tell Pokemon was Japanese. I don't quite get what you're saying? I can only tell something is Japanese because my frame of reference for Japanese culture is...Japanese culture? Disney have a distinct Western style. Studio Ghibli have a distinct Japanese style. Les Armateurs (the peeps who did Belleville Rendez-vous) have a very distinct European style. A Town Called Panic has a very European kind of humour. All culture is created within certain distinctive cultural spheres and while I obviously have my preferences, it doesn't bother me where they come from. What does bother me is when there's a very little cultural variety. (As for Zelda versus Skyrim? I'm not talking about quality, I'm talking about variety and covering a whole range of tastes. Personally, I think Skyrim is offensively boring. It's the kind of Western fantasy game that usually makes me vomit everywhere out of boredom.) Not sure why you'd mention ethnocentricity would be 'a-OK as long as it's the USA's'. I wouldn't show much interest in a company that produced overwhelmingly American games (if other companies were not there to pick up the slack). So being ethnocentric becomes a flaw when you have responsibility to a global product and audience. But that may not be a problem for some people but it obviously becomes a problem when your demographic is skewered to people who are older and have more refined tastes. Yeah, some may find all they want in that selection, but sales of the Wii U indicate otherwise. Nintendo Japan have always been like this, but they haven't always been in these circumstances (a real lack of studios outside Japan and a dearth of third party support). A lot of people say that Nintendo will be fine because they're doing what they've always done, but the rest of the industry isn't doing what it's always done. To be blunt, the times they are a changing and in my mind Nintendo act like the 90s never ended when Japan was the heart of the industry.
markderoos Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Nintendo is a commercial company, so what's important to them, is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Wii_U_video_games http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Wii_video_games http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Nintendo_GameCube_video_games http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Nintendo_64_video_games And maybe do some research which franchises led to owners switching from a Nintendo console to a rival company's console. I think they know that really well, but wish to focus on games they want to make and match their values and the red/blue ocean strategy. They don't want to compete with MS/Sony on their rivals strong points. They'd rather focus on a part of the gaming landscape that is less crowded. The issues lies with us fans and is: do we still like the games they make for that market? If not, there's always the other consoles/handhelds/PC/occulus rift/mobile games/ouya. To each his own
liger05 Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 For a games company - one selling a hardware platform - not to be releasing games IS incredibly poor. Its abysmally poor, it beggars belief. Its as bad as it gets really. co-sign The lack of foresight and planning is simply shocking. They released a console with no real plan on how they plan to support the platform with software. If they would of purchased studios during the Wii era this wouldnt be so much of a problem but they ignored this and are now paying the price. No games now until the end of May is inexusable. Now of course no third party support doesnt help but really the responsibility to support the platform lies with Nintendo and they simply cannot do it.
Serebii Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 For a games company - one selling a hardware platform - not to be releasing games IS incredibly poor. Its abysmally poor, it beggars belief. Its as bad as it gets really. You do realise that they are actually releasing games, right? No company releases multiple games each month. There will always be gaps.
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 You do realise that they are actually releasing games, right? No company releases multiple games each month. There will always be gaps. What is the rate at the moment (honestly speaking)? Seems like one game per season. (one season = 3 months/4 games per year).
Sheikah Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 The problem is that the Wii U has a terrible lack of third party support, so the first party releases seem too far between. In actuality, they're probably not being released much slower than they normally are.
Serebii Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 What is the rate at the moment (honestly speaking)? Seems like one game per season. (one season = 3 months/4 games per year). Early year is always sparse, but it'll be made up in the latter half of the year, like it was last year.
Oxigen_Waste Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Pretty much... if you look at the WiiU as an exclusive machine, as I do, it's release schedule is the same as that of any other home console. As for the whole Xenoblade not being Nintendo thing, anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves. I love the game, but it's Monolith through and through... it carries both the legacy and the namesake of Takahashi's previous games. It's no more a Nintendo game than Eternal Darkness or Starfox Adventures. They own it, but it does not feel like a game they made, and rightly so, since they did not. But I might be weirder than most in that regard, since I don't consider games by Intelligent Systems or Retro to be Nintendo, either. Just like I don't consider Uncharted to be a Sony game, since it's a Naughty Dog game. EAD are the ones who make what I think of when I think of Nintendo games. They have a particular feel to them that is different and that's what makes a game a Nintendo game in my eyes. And the last time we got a new IP which had that particular uniqueness was Pikmin, which is what I think people who complain are getting at. You can cry and throw facts around all day long... it'll have meant nothing if the costumer is unsatisfied. There's a thirst which isn't being satiated, and what makes people mad is the cowardice of it. This is a problem with an easy solution, but it requires taking risks, which N hasn't been keen on doing for quite some time. The games coming out are still as great as they've always been, but EAD's creative spark has been severely neutered by Nintendo's "play it safe" mentality.
dazzybee Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 For people who have a wii u, people who have one but are unhappy, people who don't have one and wouldn't mind one, or people who don't think it's close to having enough. if they did the following would you be happy/buy one/be more tempted May - Mario Kart July - Yarn Yoshi August - Bayonetta 2 September - Hyrule Warriors October - Smash bros. November - X December - Metroid Prime Improved their VC's, got say a dozen excellent indie games on it etc.
Sheikah Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 For me, I'm mostly interested in just MK and very much X. Hyrule Warriors I might look into, but its likely use of the DW template has set my level of excitement pretty low. So even if they did that, I'd mostly just want 2 of the games...
dazzybee Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 For a games company - one selling a hardware platform - not to be releasing games IS incredibly poor. Its abysmally poor, it beggars belief. Its as bad as it gets really. Well... except Mario and Pikmin were probably my two favourite games of last year so it's hard to criticise. I think maybe they thought they would get the support, same thing with the 3DS, they eventually got there with that. HOPEFULLY they'll do the same this time! I'm not defending their inept release schedule, I hate that. Or their ridiculous approach to online, I wrote this - http://nintendoreview.co.uk/2014/02/nintendo-hey-listen-your-approach-to-online/ I think it's just the lack of balance in the criticism of them.
M_rock Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I think Pikmin 3 was one of the freshest experiences I've had in a very long time. The game was so perfect and balanced. I enjoyed it immensely What does annoy me is that WiiU is producing good first party games, but all of those first party games are sequels. (Pikmin 3, Super Mario 3D World (literally a sequel to 3D land), DK: TF, Mario kart 8, Super smash brothers....) They are improved experiences I've already had. :/ I don't want better first party support, because it's already very good. I just want some first party support that was created with WiiU/ gamepad in mind. And I guess more third party support wouldn't hurt either.
Oxigen_Waste Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I think Pikmin 3 was one of the freshest experiences I've had in a very long time. The game was so perfect and balanced. I enjoyed it immenselyWhat does annoy me is that WiiU is producing good first party games, but all of those first party games are sequels. (Pikmin 3, Super Mario 3D World (literally a sequel to 3D land), DK: TF, Mario kart 8, Super smash brothers....) They are improved experiences I've already had. :/ I don't want better first party support, because it's already very good. I just want some first party support that was created with WiiU/ gamepad in mind. And I guess more third party support wouldn't hurt either. I agree with everything you said, but... isn't SM3DW a sequel to Super Mario World (as opposed to 3D Land)?
RedShell Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 The industry has shifted to a fairly equal (if not more Western-sided) weighting over the years, but Nintendo continue to operate in a Japanese-focused approach and their attitudes and relationships with Western developers feel slightly...isolated. They're not alone in causing the issues obviously (before anyone roasts that chestnut), but they certainly seem very wary of even considering the West as an important area. I disagree, I think Nintendo have actually put out quite a few titles in recent times that were very much considering the western market.But the thing is, it's the kind of stuff that doesn't excite your typical gamer, like Brain Training, Nintendogs, Style Boutique, Wii Chess, Endless Ocean, Wii Fit... So yeah, hardcore gamers that don't enjoy the majority of Nintendo's output (think they're too Japanese or whatever) might have reason to complain, but they also have a shitload of alternatives in order to get their western gaming fix, in the form of the PS3/4, 360/XBONE and PC! The expectation or demand that Nintendo should westernize is bizarre, it just gives me the impression that there are quite a few people in denial about being Nintendo fans. May - Mario KartJuly - Yarn Yoshi August - Bayonetta 2 September - Hyrule Warriors October - Smash bros. November - X December - Metroid Prime Very nice.Unfortunately, going on how this kind of thing usually pans out, it'd probably be more like this: May - Mario Kart June - July - August - September - October - Yarn Yoshi November - Bayonetta 2, Hyrule Warriors December - Smash bros., X, Metroid Prime Nah, surely Nintendo will be forced to spread things out this year, due to having no 3rd party support.
Blade Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Metroid Prime? Is that what we all guessing Retro is now working on? Surely it will be another DK!
dazzybee Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Very nice. Unfortunately, going on how this kind of thing usually pans out, it'd probably be more like this: May - Mario Kart June - July - August - September - October - Yarn Yoshi November - Bayonetta 2, Hyrule Warriors December - Smash bros., X, Metroid Prime Nah, surely Nintendo will be forced to spread things out this year, due to having no 3rd party support. Ha. likely But like you I think they'll learn, it happened with the 3DS, almost one game a month and it worked, and I think it would work again. I also think they'll release smaller games too on the eshop, obviously this doesn't include additional wii sports and stuff. But this is more than doable, and i think it'll have a decent impact. I do actually think they'll probably have a couple more than this, but that X won't make it this year. But I was just giving an examples to see if this would please people, or if people would still want more. And also hopefully more partnerships with 3rd parties like Sonic Boom, Hyrule Warriors and Fire Emblem X "that other RPG"
Jonnas Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I agree with everything you said, but... isn't SM3DW a sequel to Super Mario World (as opposed to 3D Land)? If anything, it's a sequel to Super Mario Bros. 2, what with those 4 playable characters. It has much more in common with 3D Land than World. Honestly not sure how anyone could not tell Pokemon was Japanese. I don't quite get what you're saying? I can only tell something is Japanese because my frame of reference for Japanese culture is...Japanese culture? Disney have a distinct Western style. Studio Ghibli have a distinct Japanese style. Les Armateurs (the peeps who did Belleville Rendez-vous) have a very distinct European style. A Town Called Panic has a very European kind of humour. All culture is created within certain distinctive cultural spheres and while I obviously have my preferences, it doesn't bother me where they come from. What does bother me is when there's a very little cultural variety. I should explain that point a little better: very little about Pokémon stands out as being particularly Japanese. No particularly Japanese names (exceptions like Pikachu aside), no particularly Japanese clothes, and Johto aside, no particularly Japanese architecture... Even the mons with Japanese links that they do have (like Jynx and Wobbuffet) aren't that well-known. If you're talking about the Anime, then only their food and that one episode with schoolgirls give it away. In the end, only two things make it obvious that it's a Japanese franchise: the RPG mechanics (for the games) and the art style (for the Anime), which are relatively recent developments, and prone to change (especially since artists are taking more and more cues from global sources). Not sure why you'd mention ethnocentricity would be 'a-OK as long as it's the USA's'. I wouldn't show much interest in a company that produced overwhelmingly American games (if other companies were not there to pick up the slack).So being ethnocentric becomes a flaw when you have responsibility to a global product and audience. But that may not be a problem for some people but it obviously becomes a problem when your demographic is skewered to people who are older and have more refined tastes. Yeah, some may find all they want in that selection, but sales of the Wii U indicate otherwise. Nintendo Japan have always been like this, but they haven't always been in these circumstances (a real lack of studios outside Japan and a dearth of third party support). A lot of people say that Nintendo will be fine because they're doing what they've always done, but the rest of the industry isn't doing what it's always done. To be blunt, the times they are a changing and in my mind Nintendo act like the 90s never ended when Japan was the heart of the industry What I meant by that was: the US is becoming more and more the dominant culture in the world. If companies and artists from all over the world change their craft to reflect this, we have a problem in our hands. It doesn't matter if the company is Japanese, Brazillian, or whatever, they should not change their identity, their image for a shallow attempt at gaining a global audience, and these days, this means becoming "more American", regardless of medium. It's entirely possible to create something with global appeal while also being representative of your own culture (like Mario). Now, should Nintendo get a variety of developers to work on new games, old and new IPs alike? I think so, too, but whether or not they're western should be irrelevant, as long as they bring a fresh perspective.
liger05 Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 You do realise that they are actually releasing games, right? No company releases multiple games each month. There will always be gaps. 1 or a month how about 1 every 2 months? You cant defend the droughts and especially when the console is on life support. It needs a steady stream of releases not one ever three months. Lets not forget Iwata said there would be no droughts and only in December 2013 ago we had this: http://wiiudaily.com/2013/11/reggie-on-wii-u-drought/ In a recent interview with GameTrailers, Reggie Fils-Aime teased an announcement from Nintendo at Spike’s VGX awards on December 7 this year, but that wasn’t all Nintendo of America’s president had to say about the company. Reggie admitted that the Wii U drought in 2013 was a mistake the company made, but he says it’s a mistake they won’t make again with the 2014 schedule. “The way we’re going to be different is, we’re gonna certainly have a steadier pace of games – both for Wii U and for 3DS.” “The marketing activity is going to be constant throughout the entire year. You tease me a little bit that ‘boy the first half [of 2013] was a little quiet,’ and y’know what, you look back and it was. We’re not going to be making that same mistake in 2014.” Please stop trying to defend or justify the lack of games when Nintendo themselves admit its a problem!! Already in early in 2014 we had one game in Feb and now the next one isnt until the end of May. How is this any different to the first half of 2013?
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) Improved their VC's This is a big thing for me actually. One night on the Wii after work, I made a gamble to buy Paper mario 64, which I never played before... Behold I found an amazing game for about a tenner which I was hooked on. The VC would absorb some of the blow with regards to the slow churn of U games. I have a new entertainment system and a massive TV, so I would happily pay for the likes of MM, OOT, Smash 64, Starfox, Sonic (Mega Drive), Street Fighter (Snes) and all those other little gems to relive. It will support the Wii U in its current state nicely. I just can't believe it can take a year and a half to add these games, when i can get a ROM and play them in minutes. Its not just new games, but the whole package that currently makes the Wii U a disappointment. Edited March 18, 2014 by King_V
Retro_Link Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Metroid Prime? Is that what we all guessing Retro is now working on? Surely it will be another DK! Donkey Kong Country Returns HD remake, followed by DKCTF 3DS.
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