Hero-of-Time Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Yesterday I was reading these thoughts from various analysts regarding Nintendo and online gaming. "Nintendo's online strategy to date has been terrible. This is where Nintendo needs to completely turn around. Nintendo cannot afford to be last in online. DLC is necessary, but on its own is not the solution. I don't think following the App Store is a good strategy at all. Apple's approach is a volume game and a race to the bottom -- quantity not quality. Dedicated handhelds and video game consoles have got to re-invent online gaming. Angry Birds is fine for the mainstream and priced for it. Hardcore gamers deserve better and won't get it unless they pay for it." - M2 Research analyst Billy Pidgeon "Nintendo has completely whiffed online, and I'm not sure if they will ever get it right. It's ridiculous to speculate about when they will wake up and seize the opportunity, they appear years away." - Wedbush analyst Michael Pachter "I don't necessarily believe the mainstream market has opened itself up to DLC quite yet. It is going to take some time for the mainstream culture to accept and be open to the idea of DLC. I don't necessarily believe any type of level based expansion pack would be successful. Of course, this has a lot to do with how many hurdles a network throws in front of a customer to make a DLC purchase happen. Simply put, for DLC to be effective among the mainstream, the purchase and install process has to be seamless." - EEDAR's Jesse Divnich "In several Parks Associates consumer studies, we asked consumers if their consoles are connected to the Internet and how they use their connected consoles. Unsurprisingly, the Wii has always trailed the other two. I think that's a huge missed opportunity that would generate a lot of revenue if Nintendo does it right. The company needs to generate interest and make it user-friendly. On the positive side, more and more consumers are used to the idea of downloading apps on their phones and tablets. That helps with selling any type of digital content, including downloadable content on consoles." - Parks Associates' Pietro Macchiarella "Nintendo has had a history of making proprietary planned obsolete services and products. They like to see their competitors make mistakes before they jump into emerging technologies. The benefit of the pathetic Wii online experience is that they have not had to deal with a hacker attack like their Japanese counterpart, Sony. They are a lot like Apple in the sense that they wait for their competitors to stumble before they go in for the kill. The fact that Wii was able to outsell both Xbox 360 and PS3 without a viable online strategy is an achievement in my opinion. Although it has undoubtedly limited the longevity of the system. I am not sure if DLC is in Mario's future but the potential for Pokemon or Nintendogs DLC is unlimited. As long as they can control it, I am sure DLC is in the cards for some first party Project Cafe titles." - Asif Khan of Panoptic Management Consultants I think alot of what they said is true, but what can Nintendo do differently when it comes to it's next console and will they learn from their past mistakes? I think we can all agree on that Nintendo have some great multiplayer franchises that would work great with online multiplayer. Mario Kart on the Wii was a great showcase of what Nintendo games would be like with online play. Imagine playing Starfox online whether it be in competitive multiplayer or even better, co-op. Having your online buddies as your wingmen instead of some useless frog has been a dream of many for a while now. Smash Bros Brawl launched with a flawed online system on the Wii. It was very laggy and some couldn't play the game at all. With a smooth online setup the game would have been so much better online. Another addition that should have been made is DLC. Many cried for various characters to be included in the game, especially Megaman, so having DLC would have been an awesome feature and would have sorted this problem out. When the WiiWare service was announced many got excited over the prospect of smaller Nintendo titles being produced for it. People ( including myself ) had hoped for an online version of Zelda: Four Swords which just seemed to make sense. Others wanted Advance Wars on the service. Again these are to games that would be great on Cafe with full online features What I would like to see Nintendo do for Cafe is offer a service that mixes Xbox Live and PSN. I don't have any beef with paying for Xbox Live but many do so I think going Sony's route would be the best option. Offer free online play but at the same time offer a subscription service where deals and free games are offered to those who subscribe. Another thing that has to go is Friend Codes. Yes, the 3DS has just one and it's definetly a step in the right direction but I would like to see a user name being selected and used, rather than a bunch of numbers. Voice Chat! Let's be honest, Wii Speak was awful. AWFUL! Compared to the quality of the audio from a 360 or PS3 headset Wii speak was laughable. Nintendo needs to release a decent headset if they are serious about online gaming. People need to communicate while playing online, especially when playing co-op modes and giving the Cafe a party chat feature like the 360 out of the box would be fantastic. Looking at the 3DS setup i'm not sure whether they will bother with this kind of thing though, which is quite worring. Resident Evil is out in July and despite having co-op features the game doesn't support voice chat. That's my brief thought's on the subject. What are yours? Do you think Nintendo will finally get it right when their next console is released or do you think they will contine making mistakes when it comes to online gaming?
Cube Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 If they get the infrastructure right - one code per console, and possibly the ability to send requests instead of both needing to add each other, with the messages and voice chat then there should be enough support from 3rd party developers to have plenty of online. Which should help convince Nintendo to do some online games as they would look pretty bad to not support online when most 3rd parties will utilise it in some form. Edit: I have no problem with Friend Codes. Once you've added them you just see their name.
Fused King Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) When it comes to DLC, I'd like NINTENDO to take the EC route a.k.a. the EXTRA content route. So no 80% games, just a very good, solid game (like Super Smash Brothers Brawl) and then hold polls from time to time to see what the fans want on top of the experience + see what needs patching. I have little idea of what NINTENDONLINE would look like, but, just like the last analyst put it, I do think they have been looking at the other home consoles and making up their minds what works and what doesn't for their install base and the future one. NINTENDO doesn't seem like the company to make you pay for online services, or even Extra content to me. The project name though, Café, hints to NINTENDONLINE in a big way though, if it refers to it at all:laughing: I mean, you pub-loving Britons ought to know that a pub can be quite crowded, and I don't see Café referring to an actual offline Café; opening the door of your small gaming room to the public:heh: NINTENDO has a history of bringing people together through a vast lot of their games; they did it for the offline crowd in a big way this generation(Wii Party, Wii Sports, Wii Music, Wii Play, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Super Mario Galaxy, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Kirby's Epic Yarn, etc.....) Why? Because that's what the system was good at in their hands, so how come they didn't include co-op online modes in most of the former games? I can only guess because they wanted you to bond with your friends on the couch or something..... Now that NINTENDO has seen how online can be used with the PS3 and X-Box 360, they can no longer ignore its potential, but how they'll go around it ....... *shaking head behind the screen* one just doesn't know: IT'S NINTENDO! All I'm hoping for is video/voice chat, for I don't have any passionate gamer friends like you guys on here, so I want to see you cry when I Falcon Punch yo asses out o' the ring! Then, I can rub the screen and actually feel the wetness of your skin through that new technological invention of which I forgot the name... Edited May 27, 2011 by Fused King
Eddage Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 I really am expecting them to completely screw it up with the Cafe. I just don't think they have it in themselves to get it right, which is a real shame as a decent online system with Nintendo games would be outstanding. Obviously I hope I'm wrong but I'm not expecting anything better than the 3DS system at all!
Mandalore Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Game patches is the most important feature that the Wii lacks in my opinion. A lot of courses in Mario Kart Wii were ruined by glitches that could have easily been sorted in a patch. Same goes for game hackers. They'll always find a way around updates, but regular patches as seen on Xbox Live will prevent most of it.
dazzybee Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 To be honest, NIntendo just doing all the bog standard stuff would be enough. Doing 'more' would obviously be great, and more Nintendo style, but I think they'll screw it up again. Even the 3DS, with all its potential is completely gimped online. No match invites, no messaging, barely any online game... It's early days but the start isn't promising. Hope Nintendo realise that ONLINE is integral to the future of gaming and embrace it fully, but I'm very worried about it.
LegoMan1031 Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 I was round Aneres11's house tonight and we had a good chat about this. I feel that nintendo really do need to step up the online setup they have got. The ability to patch games and a good online system, being able to see friends online and what they are playing, send messages, invite to games, join friends matches in progress and online chat. If they decide against usernames then i'm happy with a friend code... as long as its a universal one across all games. I am worried that they wont deliver but i can live in hope!
tapedeck Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 (edited) Aren't they apparently outsourcing their online infrastructure? This is probably the clever thing to do. Someone wholly responsible for maintaining an online aspect of the console. Like the 'online division' or something. Edited May 28, 2011 by tapedeck
Aneres11 Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 I just hope they actually embrace user names. One friend code is great, but if your talking to someone (at work say) and they say 'oh hey, I also have a cafe / new wii / whatever it will be called'. Add me. What's your friend code? Errrrm... It needs to be flawless and quick. And friend codes are not i'm afraid. What does worry me is the fact that Nintendo have gone down the friend code route for the 3ds. Would they really use the friend code system in their latest flagship handheld, then in their new home console turn their back on codes? Dunno, but cant wait to find out.
Burny Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 I just hope they actually embrace user names. One friend code is great, but if your talking to someone (at work say) and they say 'oh hey, I also have a cafe / new wii / whatever it will be called'. Add me. What's your friend code? Errrrm... *Laughs* Nah don't fret, Nintendo saw the light and they're using names for IDs now. My ID's "m4$t0rH4X0r_1337". Add me when you're at home! They should avoid usernames as online IDs. I've argued before that the system is flawed and numerical IDs bound to an account (aka "friendcodes" in an ideal implementation) or personal emails are a better option. Overall I'm cautiously optimistic concerning online with Nintendo. Iwata acknowledged XBox Live in his GDC speech for it's impact on social gaming (iirc). Nintendo knows their system so far is shit. They know 3rd parties think their system is shit. They know every player with access to other systems thinks theirs is shit. They know they can't fix it by their own and Iwata basically confirmed that they've been looking for outside help. If we chose to believe rumors, they are also trying to make a system that enjoys multiplatform support, which is impossible without an online system to back it up. Let's see what E3 brings.
Aneres11 Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 Nintendo knows their system so far is shit. Say it as it is Burny. Lol.
Dante Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 Another outside company is handling the online system. In the field of networks in particular, however, I admit that we cannot do business in pace with the changes in the world and the requests from consumers only within our company and with development companies we have long been in touch with. I am not sure which term suits us as collaborations for this purpose, [mergers and acquisitions] or partnership.
tapedeck Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 Another outside company is handling the online system. Excellent approach.
mcj metroid Posted May 29, 2011 Posted May 29, 2011 I think Nintendo admitted lately that their on-line support has been poor. I believe with Café they could very well end up teaming with another company. They can't compete with Sony and Microsoft on this department on their own. I think you'll find they're going to let another company handle this. Personally I'm not Massive into on-line gaming but I know how important it is. edit: lol didn#t even see the statement above would you believe Excellent approach though, I have a lot of faith that this is the best thing for Nintendo.
flameboy Posted May 29, 2011 Posted May 29, 2011 I know there is this talk of an external company handling it but thats just the infrastructure and such the vision of what the online experience is and how it will be used is still surely Nintendo's domain? This is what worries me to be honest, I can't see Nintendo making the most of an online service. I'd like to stand corrected and that the likes of streetpass and spotpass are just a sign of some crazy metagame stuff that could become integral to their online service and set it apart from XBL and PSN. Although this hope to be wrong is constantly rationalized by the number of ideas Nintendo have had down the years and never fully realised/used. Wii Fit, Wii Motion Plus anyone? Online wise...the likes of WiiConnect 24 being sorely underused.
ReZourceman Posted May 29, 2011 Posted May 29, 2011 Make it not fucking retarded and I'll be happy. I won't hold my breath though/
Jamba Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 From my experience, I think that part of Nintendo's philosophy towards how they treat 3rd parties has major implications here. With Sony and MS there are much fewer restrictions in terms of online. If servers need to be hosted then it is in the hands of the publishers but Nintendo almost actively put barriers in the way of developers in terms of DLC, online and so on. Nintendo need a frightening amount of control over their platform but if they gave devs some freedom and particularly supported the ones that they wanted to champion then I think other companies could bring good things to the table. Believe me or not about Nintendo's attitude but I think that changing from a "you can only do that by doing it this way" to a "you can do what you want but you have to do it on your own" philosophy would have a major impact on 3rd parties.
tapedeck Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Spot on Jamba. I don't think things are going to change much in relation to Nintendo's approach to online (Iwata even said so himself in the earlier posted interview) hence the good idea of outsourcing. And yes, it will be interesting to see if Nintendo can entice certain third party AAA titles back to their stable. If the console is extremely powerful it will be 'very' interesting to see what happens as most western devs are power whores and will be unable to resist the extra oomph a Nintendo console with a salivating fanbase who are ready for new experiences will bring
david.dakota Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 From my experience, I think that part of Nintendo's philosophy towards how they treat 3rd parties has major implications here. With Sony and MS there are much fewer restrictions in terms of online. If servers need to be hosted then it is in the hands of the publishers but Nintendo almost actively put barriers in the way of developers in terms of DLC, online and so on. Nintendo need a frightening amount of control over their platform but if they gave devs some freedom and particularly supported the ones that they wanted to champion then I think other companies could bring good things to the table. Believe me or not about Nintendo's attitude but I think that changing from a "you can only do that by doing it this way" to a "you can do what you want but you have to do it on your own" philosophy would have a major impact on 3rd parties. I am not so sure its that deliberate; to me Nintendo's failing with its online services are rooted in the hardware design and necessary any political or philosophical choice made by Nintendo. For example, console DLC only really took off with in the past 5 years or so (arguably after Wii's launch); so where both Sony and Microsoft built multimedia machines which required mass storage from day one, Nintendo built a games console in a particular mindset, one with limited storage (essentially as a convenient built in memory card, with some space for VC games and a handful of channels). I don't think Nintendo planned on large and frequent DLC content. The restriction was limited by design. Of course, when developers and publishers started to see revenue in DLC (Rockband etc) they used some initiative and lateral thinking, streaming DLC directly from SD card (If I recall, before Nintendo cracked it open). I believe this illustrates again that there was no philosophy to lock out DLC from within Nintendo. Heck, Mario Kart has had a huge selection of DLC over the years - not great DLC - but its been there, and VC, News and Weather was available from day one. As far as I'm recall we never heard any grumblings from developers and publishers that Nintendo locked out online. We 've all built up this hatred of Nintendo's online services - but lets give it some credit, it mostly works. Shop works (abiet, slowly), WC24 works, online gaming works (yes, its hacked but the lack of patching is probably due to concerns of eating away at that limited storage), messaging works, streaming video works, browser works... there is alot of stuff that works admirably, if not excellently. As far as I am concerned it lacks a handful of features - a unified account/profile and social services (seeing what your friends are playing, cross game invites etc). I think the lack of social services lies again in the hardware choices prior to 2006, leaving only game specific friendcodes as the only thing Nintendo had a choice on (but even then, some games have used the console code - so was it actually mandated, or just some pig headed third party/internal developers not really trying?) I think most people would be more than happy if Nintendo added the two above points and a sleek, streamlined UI pulling everything together.
Jamba Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 As far as I'm recall we never heard any grumblings from developers and publishers that Nintendo locked out online. They didn't lock out online, they just made it fracking awful. And yes it is/was very bad. The connection speed to their servers is laughable. I couldn't even stream the videos on the Wii Channel and a measly update took a stupid amount of time considering they rarely exceeded 10MB. Having personal experience of testing online multiplayer on a cross-platform title which included the Wii and DS I can safely say that it's a joke next to the other 2. The match-making (which is likely to be a tool given to devs by Nintendo) is upsettingly bad and despite being relatively bug free was always the least enjoyable. Lets not mention that either the server or the system was incapable of handling the online so geometry, particles and gameplay from the single player had to be removed to allow the multiplayer to even cope. Absolutely horrific. And I put that about 70% down to server/infrastructure and 30% to machine.
Retro_Link Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 So what happens if developers are keen to use the extra power of Nintendo's next console and choose to build a game for Project Cafe as the primary system... for arguements sake... a game such as a Modern Warfare 4. Do the PS3/360 versions then get outsourced to a second team... as has been the case with Modern Warfare on the Wii? Are big developers really going to choose Project Cafe with the way Nintendo are with online (even if they free it up for Cafe), over the already established, multi-million users on Xbox Live/PSN? Or will Project Cafe's extra power be constantly under utilised, as a standard version is built across all three platforms?
Hero-of-Time Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 So what happens if developers are keen to use the extra power of Nintendo's next console and choose to build a game for Project Cafe as the primary system... for arguements sake... a game such as a Modern Warfare 4. Do the PS3/360 versions then get outsourced to a second team... as has been the case with Modern Warfare on the Wii? Are big developers really going to choose Project Cafe with the way Nintendo are with online (even if they free it up for Cafe), over the already established, multi-million users on Xbox Live/PSN? Or will Project Cafe's extra power be constantly under utilised, as a standard version is built across all three platforms? I imagine it will be just like what the 360 and PS3 situation is now. Most multiformat games are built around the 360 and in the past ran better on that rather than the PS3. The situation is alot better now with both consoles getting a version that is pretty much identical. Usually the PS3's power only get's shown when it's an exclusive title like God of War, Heavy Rain, Uncharted etc.
david.dakota Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Although I'm not disagreeing with you, is this not something that is restricted by hardware rather than choice on Nintendo's part - totally agree that server speed is appalling (why, when I can download a pretty chunk smartphone app in a few seconds does it take minutes to download tiny NES files?!) - I lack the technical expertise - but could the Wii design and Nintendo server infrastructure be intrinsically linked? I've never been in a testing or development situation, but from a consumer standpoint I don't think there is a huge problem with their online world, everything just seems disjointed. Of course, there are some issues - and improvements to be made (as with anything) - but it seems functional to me. I have never experienced video problems, I have always been able to find players online - albiet, slower than I have on the PS3. As I say, its functional and works - it just needs some heavy refinement in my opinion. You mention tools - now if I recall, aren't Nintendo's online tools from Gamespy - ie, they got outside help for Wii!? Or will Project Cafe's extra power be constantly under utilised, as a standard version is built across all three platforms? I think you've nailed it. Third parties are their own worst enemy; they blame Nintendo for not supporting them but they simply fail to understand that Nintendo fans want unique experiences, exclusive titles and not ports with tacked on whatever. De Blob is a great example, the original on Wii tallied nearly 250k worldwide in its first 10 weeks - not too shabby - and the sequel? Across ALL home its sold a shameful 67k. This is a huge problem for third parties - how to create exclusive experiences on cross platform titles; without things being tacked on. We'd probably all answer 'exclusive content', but Microsoft and Sony who will money hat it, not Nintendo. If supporting third parties means giving them cash to excuse their lack of ambition and imagination, then I'd rather Nintendo take those millions and create a new, exclusive game.
Jamba Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 I lack the technical expertise - but could the Wii design and Nintendo server infrastructure be intrinsically linked? Possibly. I don't know that much about the wireless interface of the Wii but I don't think it's much of a factor as the wired version of the Dev Kits were still pretty slow. I've never been in a testing or development situation, but from a consumer standpoint I don't think there is a huge problem with their online world, everything just seems disjointed. Of course, there are some issues - and improvements to be made (as with anything) - but it seems functional to me. I have never experienced video problems, I have always been able to find players online - albiet, slower than I have on the PS3. As I say, its functional and works - it just needs some heavy refinement in my opinion. But this is where I disagree heavily. And it's not because Nintendo do anything incorrectly, they are simply behind on implementing things that allow gaming to be a fun and sociable experience online. I don't care how much of what game I have played each day shown in a pretty little chart. What would change my online experience is fully implemented VOIP, joining people mid-game, extra content to purchase (good for pubs/devs and customers!), and many other little things such as rich content friends status' (not just your stupid catchphrase). You mention tools - now if I recall, aren't Nintendo's online tools from Gamespy - ie, they got outside help for Wii!? . Eurgh I hope not... but it would explain a few things.
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