Diageo Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Okay then. Glad you've seen the error of your ways.
Guy Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Glad you've seen the error of your ways. I'm just not gonna ruin this thread by arguing with you. You're wrong though.
Diageo Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 I'm just not gonna ruin this thread by arguing with you. You're wrong though. Argue with me somewhere else then, PM will do.
Paj! Posted January 18, 2011 Author Posted January 18, 2011 I think this case stuck out for me not only because it hit close to home (literally), but because it was SO selfish/maybe that's too pregnant a word, but it affected EVERYONE shopping there, and especially children/parents with children, who primarily occupy McDonalds and mothercare, both right beside where she would have...splattered. "Normal" suicide I sympathise with, or as whoever last page said, I feel sadness or pity.
Jon Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 My uncle also killed himself, so I've seen it from the selfish perspective. I suppose it all comes down to personal circumstance. I don't think you can ever rationalise people killing themselves but I've definitely seen cases where I think to myself, if I were in their shoes, I'd do the same thing. Who am I to call someone with Huntington's disease (a disease that will render someone without the basic functions that make us human beings) selfish because they don't want to turn into a shell of their former self. Yet I read in the paper about some 14 year old twat who killed herself because her boyfriend changed his facebook status to single. It's a fine line indeed.
Dan_Dare Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Suicide and public suicide should be separated when we talk about this. Personally, I think that suicide is something that someone who genuinely feels they have no other choice should be able to do. I mean, I really hope that isn't the case but having read that letter by Bill Zeller, I think it's fair to say that he made his case pretty well. As an atheist, I have no moral issues with it or anything. Public suicide, though. Anyone who does that is a selfish, fucked up narcissist, frankly. It's a fucking horrible thing to do. Ending your own life is one thing but to do so by smashing your body to a pulp against the concrete while children eat nearby...that's fucking horrendous. There's no other way to describe it. It's a violent, terrible act that serves no purpose other than to inflict pain on other people. It's unjustifiable on any level. but like I say- An individual has the right to choose. Not to be morbid, but I can foresee a future when I'm old in which I will simply act to end my life. I'm not depressed (quite the opposite) or suicidal but there's a good chance that, one day, I'll be helpless and infirm. Possibly insane. I've seen it happen and the thought of it terrifies me. Before that happens, I will kill myself. Simple as. No More Games. No More Bombs. No More Walking. No More Fun. No More Swimming. 67. That is 17 years past 50. 17 more than I needed or wanted. Boring. I am always bitchy. No Fun – for anybody. 67. You are getting Greedy. Act your old age. Relax – This won’t hurt.
chairdriver Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 One word: stupid. To have such an unempathetic reaction to it is stupid. Does survival really trump everything else in life? Really?
The Bard Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 My best friend killed himself almost exactly a year and a half ago. We'd known each other through high school and he was one of the few people I would consider a true friend during those years. Sometimes we'd talk about suicide, since both of us were in a pretty bad place mentally at the time (although suicide was never a serious and prolonged consideration for me), but somehow I managed to pull through and then went off to uni. Trust me, in a headspace like that, you can't muster enthusiasm for anything other than perhaps recognising your own predicament in another person. Anyone who says suicide is "stupid" seems to always present an argument centered around "perspective," or "seeking help," but thats beside the point, when your mental condition is so contorted and prolonged to the point that it becomes all you know, any idea of escape from it just seems unfathomable. Anyone who says suicide is "selfish," is presuming the sort of agency that comes with ordinary mental existence. I used to have panic attacks that came with the sort of terror and entrapment that made me instantly wish to be put down, it was unendurable. We aren't some sort of Tralfamadorians (Slaughterhouse 5 reference ftw) who exist outside time, and our perspective is situated directly in the moment. I think it pathetic to pass judgement on something of which you have no personal understanding.
chairdriver Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 I'd say that it's the easy way out. It is. That's why its so inviting to many people. But its only with that shit "man-up" mentality that its a criticism. Why should we make things harder for ourselves?
The Bard Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Yeah, because overriding a biological imperitive that has been entrenched since the fucking beginning of biological time, is "easy."
MoogleViper Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 I'd say that it's the easier way out. This may be a better way to put it.
chairdriver Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Yeah, because overriding a biological imperitive that has been entrenched since the fucking beginning of biological time, is "easy." It is when you wake up every day still aching from being raped by a member of your own family.
Jon Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) It is. That's why its so inviting to many people. But its only with that shit "man-up" mentality that its a criticism. Why should we make things harder for ourselves? I don't think it's necessarily that. Bard makes a great point about mindset. I think too many of us see these people as average Joe's in the way that they think. They don't get up on a Sunday, watch some Hollyoaks Omnibus, eat some Corn Flakes and then reach for the rope or the bottle of pills. There's something clearly fundamentally wrong in they way that they think or process things. Is it a genetic thing? some people can just take any bad hit life throws at them and keep on dancing whilst others are defeated after one bad thing. I don't think the 'man-up' mentality is wrong in some cases. As i've previously said, it's hard to criticise some cases of suicide i've seen but in others I will, and having personally been affected by it, i've every right too. Life is so precious and I think we all too easily take it for granted. Suicide isn't all Black and White (lolz) it's a pretty Grey area, every case is different. Edited January 18, 2011 by Jon
The Bard Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 It is when you wake up every day still aching from being raped by a member of your own family. "Easy" connotes no relativity. Sure, enduring what you described is harder, but it in no way makes taking your own life "easy." People who kill themselves are to be pitied, not to be chided after the fact.
The fish Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 It is when you wake up every day still aching from being raped by a member of your own family. Whoa-there. That's a bit of an extreme statement, and you know for a fact the chances of anyone here knowing what the feelings towards suicide would be like after such an event is very low. I doubt you are in anyway to claim that such an event would make suicide 'easy', and I find it a little tasteless that you do.
EEVILMURRAY Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Does survival really trump everything else in life? Really? If you don't want to survive then you're ending your life anyway. Although some people may consider religion/all that jazz greater than life. If they wish to delude themselves that way so be it.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Whoa-there. That's a bit of an extreme statement, and you know for a fact the chances of anyone here knowing what the feelings towards suicide would be like after such an event is very low. I doubt you are in anyway to claim that such an event would make suicide 'easy', and I find it a little tasteless that you do. I think chair was referring to the link to Bill Zeller's suicide letter that JonSt posted earlier.
Jonnas Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Suicide is something I'm unable to comprehend. I can't fathom the thought of my life becoming so miserable I'd want to let go of it. But I do think that, if you're going to do it, doing it publicly is disgusting. It's the pinnacle of shallow vanity.
jayseven Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 As has been said, instinct is to try and put yourself in the position of the suicidee and imagine what it'd take to push you that far. Unfortunately, as with most emotions and feelings, it's impossible to truly comprehend (or even fully explain) them without first hand experience. You gotta either be fucked up or fucking stupid to kill yourself, and while one is easy to explain the other one has roots in an unknowable amount of context that the person that did this probably didn't even realise. People don't just click one moment and go for it. For someone to do something as extreme as this they must've been going through hell in their mind for an age. If one of my friends let on that they were having thoughts of doing something drastic then I'd do all I could to help them, but if someone gets to that point, then surely they didn't feel as if they had anyone to talk to, who could make whatever their situation was better. Or they were plain crazy. You got any reports for us to read, Paj?
Eenuh Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 I have to admit I've had suicidal thoughts in the past, moments where I wanted to just disappear or was hoping I would get hit by a car or die in a plane crash or something. And it's not like my life was that bad or anything horrible had happened either, I just felt depressed and alone and didn't feel like I was actually living life. Suicide might seem stupid to some, but it may seem like a blessing to others. Is it selfish? Maybe, but it would also be selfish of others to claim people shouldn't be allowed to end their own lives. It's like people saying euthanasia shouldn't be allowed. I think people should have the right to decide over their own lives. But I do think they should consider other people in this as well. Like the suicide Paj mentioned, it's traumatising for so many people... It's a bit disgusting to think about. Every suicide will traumatise at least one person (as there's someone who will find you, not counting your family and friends who will mourn your death), but to affect so many in such a gruesome way is something I could never do myself.
jayseven Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Ah that was the point I forgot during my rambling! You don't have to choose who to pity in these cases. I don't see why you should. I believe that realistically the suicide victim got the worse end of teh stick. Plenty of people have seen death; crazy, unnecessary death and lived. That's the blessing to be found. The years of counselling etc... of course that's not such a blessing.
heroicjanitor Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I sometimes picture myself diving out a window when things are going horribly wrong, or when I have to study. Does that count as suicidal thoughts?
Paj! Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 You got any reports for us to read, Paj? http://www.hounslowchronicle.co.uk/west-london-news/local-hounslow-news/2011/01/17/woman-dies-after-falling-three-floors-in-bentalls-109642-28002079/ http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2011/01/17/witless-reporting-of-bentalls-suicide Presumably more but can't find them atm and can't be bothered.
jayseven Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Just to say; I followed a series of news articles and the latest claims the woman was in her 40s, she didn't 'splat' (which after 3 stories is kinda more realistic). Curse you, world! I want my curiousity mobidly satiated!
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