Twilight Princess

[James McGeachie]

The only thing I can remember about Twlight Princess is how unmemorable it was...Seriously there aren't anywhere near as many moments that I can remember from the likes of OoT, MM and WW, hell even Link's Awakening had more for me.

 

I dunno how people can feel that way really. There are plenty of moments that stick out in my mind.

 

-the bridge scene followed by the badass shot of link on the rising horse

-The bizzare creepy cutscene with the evil white eyed Links

-the awesome spinner puzzles from the desert dungeon

-the skeleton boss "Stallord" you fight with the spinner

-the yeti boss you fight with the ball and chain

-all the amazing camera shots and dramatic scenes at the climax of the game

 

 

Just to name a few.

 

The only thing I really found disappointing about the game was that after Dungeon 4, the portions between dungeons become exceptionally short and badly paced and the game feels a bit rushed. Other than that everything was still pretty epic.

 

I played it on Gamecube for the record. I actually wonder if some of the people who were disappointed would've preferred it on Gamecube.

[Jonnas]

I dunno how people can feel that way really. There are plenty of moments that stick out in my mind.

 

-the awesome spinner puzzles from the desert dungeon

-the skeleton boss "Stallord" you fight with the spinner

-the yeti boss you fight with the ball and chain

 

The entire chapters of the desert and snow were the best parts of the game to me (Stallord is possibly the best boss in Zelda history), and it's mostly because of these "chapters" that I can't outright call Twilight Princess a "bad" game. Mediocre at worst, really.

 

And I'll have to disagree with you about the scene with the evil Links. I felt the whole scene was pretty pointless, considering there was no purpose or follow-up to that. I expected some villain to be able to morph into Dark Link or something, but I didn't even see that.

 

I played it on Gamecube for the record. I actually wonder if some of the people who were disappointed would've preferred it on Gamecube.

 

Me and Grazza also played it on the Cube. I don't think it's a console issue, though.

[James McGeachie]

Some of the music cues in the game were pretty memorable too. Although the entire soundtrack as a whole I think suffered from a lack of Kondo's involvement, some key pieces were extremely effective.

 

The sense of accomplishment whenever you beat a boss and this plays.

 

	Audio

 

Then the immediate sense of calm directly afterwards as this plays

 

	Audio

 

The surreal silent hill esque music of the Twilight areas (and in fact their atmosphere as a whole)

 

	Audio

 

And of course the main field theme is probably about as rousing and epic as you could've hoped for outside of the Zelda main theme (although I do agree the main field itself had issues due to the segmented nature and feeling of emptyness).

 

	Audio

Edited December 1, 2010 by Retro_Link

[Ronnie]

The 10 minutes it took from Snowpeak (one of Zelda's finest 'chapters' ever IMO) to the Temple of Time was pretty ridiculous and jarring. Then when you got to the latter, it was basically a straight line, easy and, some nice music and sets apart, pretty forgettable.

 

I really get the impression they rushed through the second half of the game. There were far fewer cutscenes and the world felt a lot more empty during the mirror shard quest for some reason.

 

Also I'm convinced they threw Ganon in at the last minute, when they made it a Wii launch title rather than a GC game.

 

The sense of accomplishment whenever you beat a boss and this plays.

 

 

That's ok IMO, but I'd have rather this be the boss fanfare at the end of each temple:

 

	Audio

Edited December 1, 2010 by Retro_Link
Automerged Doublepost

[Grazza]

Me and Grazza also played it on the Cube. I don't think it's a console issue, though.

 

Indeed. If I had to sum up in one word the reason this is an 8 or 9/10 and not a 10/10 like Zeldas usually are, it'd be this: "Overdevelopment".

 

It's like when you do a sketch. It might be a great, but then you work on it too much and eventually you lose what it was meant to be about in the first place.

 

I know a lot of gamers think "longer development time = better game", but this is not the case. When a game takes too long to be developed (say, more than three years), it's normally because it's been overhauled for some reason. Think of Kameo or Too Human - two games that spanned multiple consoles and weren't favourably received in the end.

 

Wind Waker was, in a way, "rushed", but it was released at the right time on the right console and thus the essence of the game was preserved. Needless to say, it was also a work of genius.

 

To understand the backlash towards Twilight Princess, you have to remember when you were a GameCube owner in 2004. How you loved the trailer where a Moblin bashes link (there were no Moblins in the finished game - why?) And then remember how utterly complete the game was in August 2005, and how the playable demo had controls just as a good as Wind Waker.

 

Then, it gives me no pleasure to say, remember how it got needlessly delayed for 12 months, how they changed the controls, how they ruined Castle Town with an overhead view, how they took out the magic meter and any items that may have used it. It was insult after insult to those of us who'd waited for it on GameCube.

 

So, give me a "rushed" game any day. Even if it had less dungeons, I'm sure it would have been better. Not meaning to be rude at all, but there is no way there will be anything like the same backlash against Skyward Sword - a game people have, frankly, no expectations for at all.

[darksnowman]

(also, surely bumping the old thread and keeping all discussion to that one topic made more sense than starting a new one, who cares how long ago it was used?)

 

This was my first reaction too, but I for one have enjoyed reading this fresh discussion thats arisen from starting off a new thread.

[Ike]

considering there was no purpose or follow-up to that. I expected some villain to be able to morph into Dark Link or something, but I didn't even see that.

 

Yeah, I agree it felt like that scene was building up to something but just fizzled out. That's probably my biggest complaint about the game, I felt the story was all over the place and didn't make much sense at times. I'm still confused about something, not sure if I just missed it though:

 

After Zelda heals Midna, she disappears only to later to have appear to have been kidnapped by Ganondorf, but was this every explained, why did Zelda disappear after the healing?

 

 

 

I was very disappointed that Octoroks weren't in the game, breaking a tradition they were bragging about in Wind Waker

[Jonnas]

After Zelda heals Midna, she disappears only to later to have appear to have been kidnapped by Ganondorf, but was this every explained, why did Zelda disappear after the healing?

 

 

 

Oh, she sacrificed herself for Midna... And then seemingly revived for no reason.

 

Huh. That is quite a plothole...

[Kav]

Oh, she sacrificed herself for Midna... And then seemingly revived for no reason.

 

Huh. That is quite a plothole...

 

She revived for the same reason that Ganondorf survived when the Sages tried to kill him with the Spirit Sword... the Triforce.

[killer kirby]

I know a lot of gamers think "longer development time = better game", but this is not the case. When a game takes too long to be developed (say, more than three years), it's normally because it's been overhauled for some reason. Think of Kameo or Too Human - two games that spanned multiple consoles and weren't favourably received in the end.

 

You know what was also in development a for a long time? Dragon Quest VII, Red Dead Redemption, Final Fantasy XII. Are you saying all those games are shit as well? Since they had longer development time then most normal games? Your statement is really flawed. Some games longer developments are better then others, just as some rushed games are better then others.

 

 

So, give me a "rushed" game any day. Even if it had less dungeons, I'm sure it would have been better. Not meaning to be rude at all, but there is no way there will be anything like the same backlash against Skyward Sword - a game people have, frankly, no expectations for at all.

 

That's because we have seen fuck all of the game and only the style of the game, I am fairly sure if we had just as much footage and content that both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess people would go nuts over it...But then again, Zelda fans still confuse me as much as Sonic fans do.

 

The moment I was told that the director of Minish Cap is directing skyward sword, I know this game is my most wanted now.

[Goron_3]

You know what was also in development a for a long time? Dragon Quest VII, Red Dead Redemption, Final Fantasy XII. Are you saying all those games are shit as well? Since they had longer development time then most normal games? Your statement is really flawed. Some games longer developments are better then others, just as some rushed games are better then others.

 

 

 

 

That's because we have seen fuck all of the game and only the style of the game, I am fairly sure if we had just as much footage and content that both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess people would go nuts over it...But then again, Zelda fans still confuse me as much as Sonic fans do.

 

The moment I was told that the director of Minish Cap is directing skyward sword, I know this game is my most wanted now.

 

Tbh though I think the main reason I'm worried about SS is that the industry has moved so much past Zelda in recent years, with Western developers really overtaking the Japs. There was a quote recently (from Kojima I think?) who said the Japanese industry was a state and developers were about 4-5 years behind westeners and looking back at it that was what was wrong with TP.

[James McGeachie]

Even if Western development has made a lot of progress that Japanese developers need to catch up on, especially in terms of overall presentation and depth of game design, Skyward Sword still has the ability to impress the whole world in one main area, which is the obvious one: innovative control.

 

Skyward Sword is Nintendo's last proper chance in my eyes to show that Motionplus wasn't a complete waste of time (beyond casual gaming) and can add layers of depth to a traditional game experience that are impossible with regular control. Not just waggle for your sword or pointing instead of moving a cursor, precision motion control that makes you genuinely go "Oh that's awesome, I couldn't have done that with a button at all!"

 

If they were truly able to do that, then Zelda could set the standard for innovative motion control that even developers on the next gen systems would have to meet on platforms like Natal and Move (as far as I'm aware, neither have anything that truly stands out yet, right?).

 

There's already been hints that Skyward Sword has some good ideas, like the whole thing where you can only beat certain enemies with vertical or horizontal flashes and the parts where you spin the tip of your sword around to make the eyes above doors dizzy. There's evidence that the motion isn't just a needless gimmick and is actually being incorporated in ways where they couldn't logically do the same stuff on controller, which is encouraging.

 

Twilight Princess was the opposite, it actually completely lost a key feature in the transition (camera control with c-stick). It didn't really demonstrate the proper usage of motion in an adventure game to any real strength at all.

Edited December 2, 2010 by James McGeachie

[Shorty]

Even if Western development has made a lot of progress that Japanese developers need to catch up on, especially in terms of overall presentation and depth of game design, Skyward Sword still has the ability to impress the whole world in one main area, which is the obvious one: innovative control.

Buh?

 

Control?

 

I can see awesome control in any game.

 

In a Zelda game, I want awesome Zelda Gameplay. I couldn't care less about control. This is the whole reason why Nintendo has dropped the ball for me this generation. Fuck controls, fuck motion plus, fuck balance boards, fuck heartbeat monitors for my thumb. Just give me some awesome games.

[James McGeachie]

Buh?

 

Control?

 

I can see awesome control in any game.

 

In a Zelda game, I want awesome Zelda Gameplay. I couldn't care less about control. This is the whole reason why Nintendo has dropped the ball for me this generation. Fuck controls, fuck motion plus, fuck balance boards, fuck heartbeat monitors for my thumb. Just give me some awesome games.

 

You're not going to get an awesome Zelda game from Skyward Sword unless it has innovative control that's beyond anything they've done on Wii so far.

 

Nintendo are never going to have a huge emphasis on story. Everyone knows if it's up to Miyamoto they'll have as little story as possible. So what else do people want from the game? Good dungeon design? Twilight Princess had that and people still moan their asses off about the game. Good visuals? Well that's a love or hate thing, but it's obviously not going to be a generational leap.

 

This is exactly why though that I say this is Nintendo's last chance really to "prove" Motionplus' worth. You just said fuck controls. That's because they clearly haven't proven to you that the game can be far more awesome with really good control than it would ever be without.

 

That's what I want from Skyward Sword, for them to prove that. Motionplus should have that ability. It's clearly capable of things button presses aren't.

[Ganepark32]

Nintendo are never going to have a huge emphasis on story. Everyone knows if it's up to Miyamoto they'll have as little story as possible. So what else do people want from the game? Good dungeon design? Twilight Princess had that and people still moan their asses off about the game. Good visuals? Well that's a love or hate thing, but it's obviously not going to be a generational leap.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the 'hardcore' Zelda fans don't know what they want from a Zelda game and they're the ones who were most vocal in their criticisms of Twilight Princess.

 

Case in point: I remember prior to Wind Waker hearing people say they wanted something different from the OoT template. Nintendo gave something different and people complained it was too different and that they wanted something more like OoT. Cue Twilight Princess, and people complain again that it's too similar to OoT, even though they had asked for it. Now people want change and I guarantee that whatever we get with Skyward Sword, people will still complain. It'll either be too much like OoT or TP or too different for people.

 

I do think that the Zelda series needs a big change up and I hope we get it. We've seen nothing of Skyward Sword that will be in the final game, other than the art style and how the controls will work on a basic level, and I really hope Aonuma has been allowed to deviate as much as possible from the Zelda template to give us some fresh gameplay and dungeon ideas (I hope they do away with the Forest/Fire/Water dungeon setup and do something more original) that still sit within the mentality of what we've seen in previous Zelda games.

 

And perhaps I'm the only one that thinks it's a good idea, but maybe they should do away with a Hyrule City/Castle Town. If they can't make it feel inclusive and bustling with life and things to do, then don't do it. Just make smaller communities with lots of stuff to do in those areas and in between.

[killer kirby]

Buh?

 

Control?

 

I can see awesome control in any game.

 

In a Zelda game, I want awesome Zelda Gameplay. I couldn't care less about control. This is the whole reason why Nintendo has dropped the ball for me this generation. Fuck controls, fuck motion plus, fuck balance boards, fuck heartbeat monitors for my thumb. Just give me some awesome games.

 

Really? Man, at the end of the last gen I was kind of getting sick of getting the same type of games again and again, it was only thanks to the Wii that I am still into gaming. Don't know how you can say Nintendo have dropped the ball either I mean I havn't had so much fun with the games since the SNES era, the Wii and DS have just been getting better one Nintendo game after another, and now the 3DS is coming. Yep...Nintendo have really dropped the ball.

[James McGeachie]

And perhaps I'm the only one that thinks it's a good idea, but maybe they should do away with a Hyrule City/Castle Town. If they can't make it feel inclusive and bustling with life and things to do, then don't do it. Just make smaller communities with lots of stuff to do in those areas and in between.

 

That's a good point really.

 

The Majora's Mask route is probably the best idea in regards to towns. One big one, with shitloads to do.

 

TP isn't exactly chock full of town areas but Kakariko village felt like it had more to do in it than Castle Town despite the huge differences in scale. Then on top of that the initial village (I forget its name I admit) probably felt more immersive than either of them.

 

Too much focus on traditional Zelda structure can be limiting, the "need" to have Kakariko village and a Hyrule castle town, the need to have Link come from some smaller location prior to going out to those areas, the "need" to have Goron mines and Zora's domain, etc.

[Shorty]

Really? Man, at the end of the last gen I was kind of getting sick of getting the same type of games again and again, it was only thanks to the Wii that I am still into gaming. Don't know how you can say Nintendo have dropped the ball either I mean I havn't had so much fun with the games since the SNES era, the Wii and DS have just been getting better one Nintendo game after another, and now the 3DS is coming. Yep...Nintendo have really dropped the ball.

In relation to your penultimate point, I was only referring to the console generation, not handhelds. The DS and 3DS are a whole different thing and I've completely loved my DS phat since I got it about five years ago. I have more games for that than my Wii and will surely buy a 3DS on launch.

 

But to go into a long discussion about the rest of your comment would open a whole huge can of worms not meant for this thread (or anywhere really) and would ultimately just boil down to a difference of opinion.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Shorty

[LostOverThere]

Honestly, I want Nintendo to spend time on actually make the world feel physically alive for SS. Twilight Princess felt stale.

[Jimbob]

Nintendo peaked with Zelda greatness with Ocarina of Time, and nearly beat it with Majoras Mask. But since then in my opinion now, Zelda games have not been up-to scratch or as good as before.

 

I feel the series has been going down-hill since Majoras Mask. Wind Waker to get sales, came bundled for a limited time with Ocarina of Time!!. The game (WW) itself was short and people didn't like the excessive boat travelling. I'm not one to judge the DS Zelda games, as i havn't played them but still.

 

Twilight Princess, which is the latest Home Console Zelda started off pretty good. It had an atmosphere and a feeling to it, similar to that i felt with Ocarina of Time. But as the game progressed, i felt less attached to the game. It felt like it was missing stuff, and only from playing more of the game did i feel and find out what it was missing. It was missing the atmosphere and depth that it had at the start. The woods leading to the first Temple, they felt empty. The path leading to Hyrule Field, that felt like it should have had something there. I know it had the oil bloke, but it needed something else there.

 

But, once i got to Hyrule Field i realised that this field was simply a baron, empty area which served only as the route to Kakariko, Castle Town, Lake Hylia and Zora's Domain. There should have been a town here to amuse me, something as a break from the long tedious journey between towns.

 

The Shadow battles felt like they were "tacked" on to the game, you could see them coming from a mile away and they came at the most in-conveniant time.

 

I could go on with Kakariko, Zoras Domain, Goron Village and Castle Town feeling like there should have been more contained within, more stuff unlocked as you progressed through the game. Kakariko needed life, Castle Town needed a soul. Goron Village and Zora's Domain were missing mini-games and side-quests, like they had in Ocarina and Majoras Mask. And don't get me started on Gerudo Desert, that could have been so much more.

 

At least they had the Fishing around Zora's River, that was great. That part felt like it had been worked on, like it had life to it and wasn't tacked on.

 

Don't get me wrong, Twilight Princess is a good game. It was just lacking a lot of stuff to make it even better. More mini-games, side-quests and more of a atmosphere/soul to the game. If it had the stuff in, it would have crushed Ocarina as the best Zelda game.

 

@ James McGeachy. The initial town was Ordon Village. And i agree with you, Zelda games need to take the Majoras Mask route when coming with stuff to do. Clock Town was rammed of stuff to do, enough to keep you occupied for a few hours. So did the rest of Termina.

[Jonnas]

That's a good point really.

 

The Majora's Mask route is probably the best idea in regards to towns. One big one, with shitloads to do.

 

Yeah, like Windfall Island, too. They nailed the "town" formula in WW (considering not every game can have the sort of immersion that MM's plot allowed for)

 

Too much focus on traditional Zelda structure can be limiting, the "need" to have Kakariko village and a Hyrule castle town, the need to have Link come from some smaller location prior to going out to those areas, the "need" to have Goron mines and Zora's domain, etc.

 

I agree with this. I love it that there are different races in WW. And the Anouki are so awesome

 

They're much better off creating new stuff for their new world, instead of feeling they should reuse OoT's material. Even in Majora's Mask, every race was reinvented in culture, setting, etc. In TP, at least they tried this for the Gorons to some extent, but I feel it still relied on too much stuff from OoT.

[James McGeachie]

Question for people who were heavily disappointed with the game:

 

-Did the dungeon design itself disappoint you (in comparison to past Zeldas), or was it mainly everything else?

 

See for me, I didn't have any major complaints with the design of the dungeons. The only minor one is that 6, 8 and 9 were a bit on the short side. In fact, many sections of the dungeons felt like the best there'd ever been in a 3D Zelda game.

 

There was a little in the way of "missed opportunity", mainly in that items were rarely used outside of the dungeon they were found in, but that was just room for improvement and not something that I found disapointing in itself.

 

Dungeons 4 and 5 I think are very highly regarded by virtually everyone within the fandom. I'm pretty sure I remember 1, 2 and 3 at least being on the par with what I'd expect from all of them, with some cool item ideals like the gale boomerang and using the iron boots for magnetism puzzles. 6 had a clever structure even if it seemed fairly linear. 7 was pretty epic and huge and had a cool ass boss fight. 8 and 9 were too short, but nothing seemed grossly disappointing about them other than length.

 

Overall I felt they were great and it's why the game holds up well for me despite other issues with pacing and side quests. I'd at least give it a 9/10 in terms of dungeon design. It would've earned the extra point with more length in 8/9 and more continuous item usage (especially for the spinner! Nintendo, add in a similar item to Skyward Sword and make a dungeon entirely based on it and I'm yours!).

[Shorty]

For me the dungeons were fine, as were the bosses. I've never had a problem with the dungeons, it was everything in between that bothered me.

[nekunando]

I definitely need to play through this again at some point! I remember really enjoying it during the winter period when the Wii was first released.. but that's pretty much all I remember

 

For me, Ocarina of Time is highly memorable and I can still see the general layout in my head as well as many key moments in the game! With Twilight Princess, I struggle to remember a lot of what happened in the game and, indeed, where certain things are. For a second playthrough, this could be a blessing as I'll get to rediscover a lot of the game's qualities all over again

[Jonnas]

Most of the dungeons weren't a problem. Dungeon no.2 was very streamlined, though, and with an incredibly basic design. Dungeons 8&9 were practically half-finished. Dungeon 8's second half consisted of moving to certain places and the entirety of Dungeon 9 consisted of picking up a key and meeting the boss.

 

Every other dungeon was well-designed and/or interesting, definitely a step up from Wind Waker where, Medli and Makar aside, the dungeons were very basic and streamlined (like TP's 2nd Dungeon).