Super Mario 3D All-Stars (RIP)

[Dcubed]

11 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

The ongoing narrative amongst some members on this forum is that Nintendo games are a special kind of quality that stand above other games. As we have seen here with timed/limited availability and the number of copies they ship for some series, they induce scarcity through careful management. If this was purely a case where quality dictating price we would see Witcher 3 still at £50 five years after launch.

I see you didn't address the first part of my post. Where is your criticism of this lazy remaster? Not even 60 FPS for Sunshine, which was supposed to be that in the first place. Very little work on Mario 64, or any of it for that matter. No GameCube controller support for Sunshine, despite Nintendo releasing an official GameCube controller. Full £50 price.

You're getting three games for the price that you would normally pay for one.  I wouldn't expect each individual game to get the same treatment as Wind Waker HD or Twilight Princess HD if they're being bundled together.  You pay for what you get (and they're not shit games either, unlike the Crash games )

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I'm surprised because I know how vocal you can be about lazy remasters and crappy practices (see the Jimquisition thread). I remember you giving the Tales of Symphonia remaster a right earful. Not going to lie, if I had to pick a company which I thought you would give a pass, this would be the one.

The TOS remaster was a technical disaster that was a total pile of shite compared to the GCN original.  So far, there's nothing technically wrong with any of the games in this collection that warrents complaining about; they all seem like straight upgrades over the originals that adequetly preserve the original look, feel and gameplay (jury's still out about GCN controller support for Sunshine, we'll have to wait and see how it actually works in-game.  If it doesn't support the analog triggers? THEN Nintendo will be getting an earful from me).

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As for the bit you bolded - nope, those other games don't compare. You can't tell me that this 3 pack of Mario games are comparable in terms of impact/desirability/significance. Not only that, according to Wikipedia (and also what I remember), the individual games from Super Mario All Stars were available separately on the Wii Virtual Console store, thus making the limited digital availability in this case even more shitty. 

Also - just to point out here that the Mario All Stars games being sold separately on Wii kind of proves that they can and do pretty much whatever they like with regards to selling their games. 

Goes to show that your memory is about as shitty as your attitude, because the SNES versions were NOT sold seperately on the Wii Virtual Console.  The NES versions were availalble for sale, but NOT the SNES versions.  Nintendo have only ever put out re-releases of All Stars twice; once as a Wii retail release, and once just last week on the Switch NSO service (oh and yes, there are individual releases of the SNES versions of the SMB games, but they have only ever been released via the BS Satellaview).

Edited September 7, 2020 by Dcubed

[Aneres11]

Sooooo... is anyone else excited to play Sunshine again?!  

[Dcubed]

5 minutes ago, Aneres11 said:

Sooooo... is anyone else excited to play Sunshine again?!  

I am! I'm really interested in seeing if they've fixed any of the (major!) issues with the original release!  

[Sheikah]

On 07/09/2020 at 8:44 PM, Jonnas said:

Ok, that's enough. I ignored your previous egging, because I figured it was a question (if an aggressive one), but please don't ask other forum members to take a stand, or have the same opinions as you. It's been pretty clear nobody in this forum is particularly happy with the collection, and there's a multitude of reasons for that. Don't go around demanding they show the same level of indignation that you do.

It's bad enough faith when politicians do it, don't bring that habit here.

Also, I don't see this as being a particularly rude line or questioning to Dcubed. I know he loves his remasters, and I know he loves Nintendo games. In fact I appreciate his level of knowledge about remasters - it was from him I learned how crappy that Tales of Symphonia port was. I'm interested to know where he stands on what is a pretty low budget remaster, which his last post clarifies. Although honestly, Dcubed, I don't believe you would be quite so lenient on the lack of effort (even just no 60 FPS) if this was someone else doing it.

With regards to my underlying thoughts, I make no secret that I think there is a tilt and defensiveness about Nintendo products about these parts - to the point that certain people on here will be quick to criticise other companies for their practices and remasters but not others. In fact, in some threads, if I see a certain person has replied, I can more or less predict how the reply will read.

I do think for sure that if this was a different company doing this level of effort with a remaster pack, with the limited digital availability to boot, that certain people would have a lot more to say. Let's just leave it at that.

[Dcubed]

21 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

Also, I don't see this as being a particularly rude line or questioning to Dcubed. I know he loves his remasters, and I know he loves Nintendo games. In fact I appreciate his level of knowledge about remasters - it was from him I learned how crappy that Tales of Symphonia port was. I'm interested to know where he stands on what is a pretty low budget remaster, which his last post clarifies. Although honestly, Dcubed, I don't believe you would be quite so lenient on the lack of effort (even just no 60 FPS) if this was someone else doing it.

To tell the truth, I generally don't like the idea of remasters and remakes.  If I had the choice, I would much prefer straight emulated re-releases of games.  I generally think it's disrespectful to the original game when other developers start jumping in and mucking around with someone else's game; making changes to the look and feel of the original.  Much like a movie remake, most of the time, the original ends up being better anyway.

Now there are cases where a remake or remaster does have a reason to exist; where there are meaningful changes made to fix significant problems with the original game (like Wind Waker's sailing, or Ocarina of Time's Iron Boots, or Link's Awakening's inventory), or meaningful additions made that greatly enhance the experience (like with Kirby Superstar Ultra).  But more often than not? I'd rather just have the original, emulated on a modern platform in higher resolution; and it was fine before, because we still had access to both remakes and straight re-releases anyway.

So yes, I am still really pissed off about the loss of Virtual Console.  I think it's the single worst thing Nintendo has done in the past 4 years.  Virtual Console was the best thing Nintendo had going and I'm still absolutely livid about losing it.  To the point where I've gone and bought a Super NT, bought a Mega SG and have gone on to mod my GBA and N64 for higher quality video output; because I REALLY fucking miss the Virtual Console experience and desperately wish I could have it with the games that aren't available on the Wii/Wii U/3DS VC services! (I just recently bought Terranigma, Soul Blazer and Illusion of Gaia a few days ago actually! While it's great that I can play them with VC level visual quality now, I still wish I could play them on my Switch for the Suspend Saves, Portability and other associated features.  It's horrendous that I now have to turn to 3rd party hardware solutions to get an approximation of that VC experience).

Also, do you have any clue how expensive retro game carts have become now!? You have no idea how good we had it... Games that would otherwise cost you hundreds of pounds cost only like £6!! and were available at the push of a button!!! And it was a better experience all around than mucking around with original hardware!! It was amazing!!

Edited September 7, 2020 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

48 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

You're getting three games for the price that you would normally pay for one. I wouldn't expect each individual game to get the same treatment as Wind Waker HD or Twilight Princess HD if they're being bundled together.  You pay for what you get (and they're not shit games either, unlike the Crash games )

I know that (and you mean one new game), but compared to what the rest of their industry has been doing with some of their trilogies recently, for the price they're doing it at, it is disappointing. It doesn't even need to be a particularly adventurous remaster - there are just some very obvious omissions like 60 FPS that would make such a difference that aren't there. I know you say you like the game to stay true to how it originally was, but Mario Sunshine was supposed to be 60 FPS. And when you see it in action on Dolphin, there's just no two ways about it - it looks so much better.

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The TOS remaster was a technical disaster that was a total pile of shite compared to the GCN original.  So far, there's nothing technically wrong with any of the games in this collection that warrents complaining about; they all seem like straight upgrades over the originals that adequetly preserve the original look, feel and gameplay (jury's still out about GCN controller support for Sunshine, we'll have to wait and see how it actually works in-game.  If it doesn't support the analog triggers? THEN Nintendo will be getting an earful from me).

To quote you from other topics...you might call these 3 games "serviceable".

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Goes to show that your memory is about as shitty as your attitude, because the SNES versions were NOT sold seperately on the Wii Virtual Console.  The NES versions were availalble for sale, but NOT the SNES versions.  Nintendo have only ever put out re-releases of All Stars twice; once as a Wii retail release, and once just last week on the Switch NSO service (oh and yes, there are individual releases of the SNES versions of the SMB games, but they have only ever been released via the BS Satellaview).

I'm sorry you don't like my attitude. I didn't appreciate that the Mario Bros. games were the NES versions on the VC store. Not going to lie, I wasn't the most legitimate virtual console user so a lot of these technicalities pass me by. 

I guess my counterpoint to this would be that NES versions were still available on Virtual Console, so you weren't completely left out cold if you couldn't get the retail disc of All Stars. I also read that All Stars was reprinted, so at least there was that. And I'd also argue that even though from a historical point of view the original Mario Bros. games are important, this 3D trilogy has much more oomph and appeal to modern gamers. Heck, Super Mario World was where it was at anyway.

Yet here, with 3D All Stars, there is potentially no other way to play these games once they're gone next March. Even though I know that Nintendo have done funny things before, this particularly high profile release, in a highly digital world now, does hit rather hard. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Sheikah

[S.C.G]

3 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

So yes, I am still really pissed off about the loss of Virtual Console.  I think it's the single worst thing Nintendo has done in the past 4 years.  Virtual Console was the best thing Nintendo had going and I'm still absolutely livid about losing it.  To the point where I've gone and bought a Super NT, Mega SG and have gone on to mod my GBA and N64 for higher quality video output; because I REALLY fucking miss the Virtual Console experience.

You're not alone here, I miss the Virtual Console, not just because it was a huge part of my life, and others on this site, for many years, but because it really was an amazing concept, only let down by Nintendo's unwillingness to support it beyond a certain generation; which is ridiculous in itself, because now, they have the perfect platform to relaunch it on.

- - - - -

Anyway, at least we can dig into these games properly when the collection launches in a week and a half, also, we can confirm that there will be an N-Europe review of these games soon after they launch, as many of us will be buying this compilation, and while we can't say much more than that, (not for embargo reasons, but more that we'd like to keep the format of the review a surprise) we will bring you a review of Super Mario 3D All-Stars as it's something we're all very much looking forward to, despite the niggling aspects of the collection.

With that said, we recognise that it's not perfect, and we can certainly have a joke about how the compilation might have come about...

(here's something I posted in the staff section about how some of the Mario 35th Anniversary conversation might have gone)*

Spoiler

Nintendo must have had a look at the year and thought...

A - "Oh, you know it's Mario's 35th Anniversary this year, we should release some sort of compilation"

B - "What have we got?"

A - "Well, we've got this sharper looking version of Super Mario 64 with redone textures"

B - "Redone textures?"

A - "Yeah, we changed the 'M' on Mario's Cap and made everything more shiny and rounded"

B - "OK good, what else?"

A - "Super Mario Sunshine, we got that running on the Switch, but there's not GC controller support..."

B - "GC controller support? What would they need that for?"

A - "Well, it was originally released on the Nintendo GameCube, the controller had these analogue triggers..."

B - "Analogue Triggers? What are those?"

*laughs*

B - "Anything else?"

A - "Remember that port of Super Mario Galaxy on that other portable console, which can be displayed on the big screen, but is NOT a Switch?"

B - "I have no idea what you're talking about..."

A - "Well anyway, we got that running on the Switch now, you can choose which controller you want this time, so there's that."

B - "Didn't that game get a sequ..."

A - "So that'll probably do, right?"

"Y-yeah... I guess so, add in some extras and a menu system then we'll put that out for full price in a couple of weeks"

A - "That's that then... Gee, I wonder what we're going to do for Mario's 40th?"

B - "I don't want to be the one to say it but, we might actually have to make an entirely brand new game, from scratch... in 4K..."

A - "Mama-Mia!"

Or something...

*This fictional exchange is just a few words stated mostly in jest, because you surely have to be a little bit curious about how the internal conversation might have gone at the time.

Anyway, perhaps it might put a smile on someone's face, the compilation will be out soon so look forward to our review and personally, it will be good to play the games again and also see what everyone else thinks of them, particualy in the case of anyone who might not have had a chance to play any of these games yet.

[Ronnie]

2 hours ago, Sheikah said:

For the purpose of making more money, because FOMO does that. There are games where microtransactions are centred around FOMO with seasonal content, and they generate millions.

Dcubed, Jonnas and myself have already told you that selling it for the rest of the Switch's lifetime will likely make them more money. So your "for the purpose of making money" is incorrect.

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Tell me, if not for the reasons I'm giving, what purpose is there of making this time limited, from a business point of view?

Because that's how a conservative Japanese company sees anniversary celebrations, and how they should work. Simple.  

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Just to clarify, you're saying the scenario where Nintendo continue to sell the 3 Mario games to the public after March next year is the doomsday scenario?

I'm suggesting you wait and see if/when they start selling these games individually, assess the situation when it happens, and then maybe get on the gamer outrage train. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Ronnie

[Sheikah]

53 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Dcubed, Jonnas and myself have already told you that selling it for the rest of the Switch's lifetime will likely make them more money. So your "for the purpose of making money" is incorrect.

That's just a possible outcome.

You don't know whether FOMO will result in more sales than this game would normally see over a number of years - and more Switch console sales right now, before they release a Pro console. You don't know if they will sell these games separately - if they do then they will be making more money now from people not wanting to miss out, then money after too. And you don't know if they're just trying to make more money in the short term to reach financial targets that have been impacted by COVID.

People come down too hard on one opinion. "They won't be released separately". I mean, we don't know for sure about that, do we? 

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Because that's how a conservative Japanese company sees anniversary celebrations, and how they should work. Simple. 

Nintendo are not fools and Nintendo know how to make money. They're also not deaf - I'm sure they know they've received a negative response to the limited availability.

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I'm suggesting you wait and see if/when they start selling these games individually, assess the situation when it happens, and then maybe get on the gamer outrage train. 

It's not good either way. Either they sell them separately afterwards and they've played on FOMO, or they make the games completely unavailable to people who want them.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Sheikah

[Rummy]

On 03/09/2020 at 4:00 PM, Sheikah said:

We don't even get the DS remake of Mario 64 which had extra detail to the character models and additional characters.

I mean this isn't likely for me as whilst I enjoyed Sunshine and Galaxy I don't have much hankering to play them again. I hadn't considered the DS Mario 64 ofc and I gotta agree - why not take that and update assets etc? Puts me off more(tho as said wasn't too fussed already).

[Dcubed]

Just heard that 3D All Stars has been made by NERD (The same team behind the NES/SNES mini consoles and the NES/SNES NSO service).

So that explains what they've been working on.  We're getting this instead of Nintendo 64 Nintendo Switch Online.

Also explains why this is a bit of a strange product in general for Nintendo.  They don't normally do straight, native ports like this.

Fun fact, this is the first time they've ever put out a retail product that is entierly of their own making! (They've previously worked on parts of retail titles though, like Brain Training Switch's finger tracking, or Labo VR's head tracking, or Ring Fit Adventure's heart rate sensing).

Edited September 8, 2020 by Dcubed

[Cube]

1 hour ago, Rummy said:

I mean this isn't likely for me as whilst I enjoyed Sunshine and Galaxy I don't have much hankering to play them again. I hadn't considered the DS Mario 64 ofc and I gotta agree - why not take that and update assets etc? Puts me off more(tho as said wasn't too fussed already).

I don't think it's quite that simple, the DS was a full port while this seems to be more emulation.

[Ashley]

46 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

Just heard that 3D All Stars has been made by NERD (The same team behind the NES/SNES mini consoles and the NES/SNES NSO service).

Damn it, just when I was going to start the N-Europe Research & Development team they stole the acronym from us!

[Rummy]

49 minutes ago, Cube said:

I don't think it's quite that simple, the DS was a full port while this seems to be more emulation.

Yeah I suspect as much myself(almost making it lazier and worse really) - my point is they COULD have made the effort to do otherwise

[Ronnie]

Ah the old lazy dev argument. There's no emulation, aspect ratio and textures have been improved as well as other changes like UI. Gamexplain takes a look.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Ronnie

[drahkon]

16 minutes ago, Rummy said:

my point is they COULD have made the effort to do otherwise

Why though, if they could will make a shit ton of money with little to no effort

[Rummy]

20 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Ah the old lazy dev argument. There's no emulation, aspect ratio and textures have been improved as well as other changes like UI. Gamexplain takes a look.

Except you clearly know and can comprehend this wasn't even the point. It was a point about why not utilising the extra content they already have and have created for this game previously ala the DS version with 30 extra stars.

[Ronnie]

3 minutes ago, Rummy said:

Except you clearly know and can comprehend this wasn't even the point. It was a point about why not utilising the extra content they already have and have created for this game previously ala the DS version with 30 extra stars.

Regardless of what point you were trying to make, I was replying to the suggestion that this game is more emulation than port.

[Cube]

29 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Ah the old lazy dev argument. There's no emulation, aspect ratio and textures have been improved as well as other changes like UI. Gamexplain takes a look.

So they've done stuff that can easily be done via emulation?

If they've ported, then Nintendo choosing to not to widescreen for Super Mario 64 is an even worse choice.

[markderoos]

I suspect they did it to keep as close to the original releases as possible without making them totally unplayable. It is meant as a collection of games that clebrates the history of 3D Mario, right? 

[Ronnie]

52 minutes ago, markderoos said:

I suspect they did it to keep as close to the original releases as possible without making them totally unplayable. It is meant as a collection of games that clebrates the history of 3D Mario, right? 

I think you're right.

It'd be like Disney releasing the animated Alice in Wonderland or Alladin films on Disney+ and re-illustrating them with modern techniques.

Not saying I agree, I'd have loved to see Mario 64 given a visual update but I can see why they may have wanted to preserve the game's appearance.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Ronnie

[Cube]

Widescreen support (and an updated camera) wouldn't affect the look of the game.

[Ashley]

20 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

I think you're right.

It'd be like Disney releasing the animated Alice in Wonderland or Alladin films on Disney+ and re-illustrating them with modern techniques.

Not saying I agree, I'd have loved to see Mario 64 given a visual update but I can see why they may have wanted to preserve the game's appearance.

They do remake their films with modern techniques though. Both of those films have been remade with modern techniques. 

It's more akin to Disney's vault than anything but let's not get into that again!

[Ronnie]

1 hour ago, Ashley said:

They do remake their films with modern techniques though. Both of those films have been remade with modern techniques. 

It's more akin to Disney's vault than anything but let's not get into that again!

Both those animated films look like the original, sure they've been cleaned up but my point was they would never re-illustrate them in a new animated style.

Like I said, not saying I agree with the choice but it's something to consider.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Ronnie

[Jonnas]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

they would never re-illustrate them in a new animated style.

Until the Lion King remake

Edited September 8, 2020 by Jonnas