Black Panther (2018)

[Rummy]

So! Had a quick search and it seems there's no actual topic for this film! I saw it last night, absolutely loved it, and it's probably my fave marvel film and it made me feel like I did after Guardians 1(think that and this are their two best films).

Won't post too much more than an extended trailer for those who haven't followed it much. Those who've seen it - what did you think? I don't think I've quite realised how in love with it I even am yet.

 

[Happenstance]

I'll hopefully go see it next week but I've been hearing great things about it so far.

[Sméagol]

It was really excellent. Maybe I'll post more specific stuff later on.

Generally I loved the story, but especially the world building. The introduction of Black Panther in Civil War (which was already excellently handled there) payed off. Combined with the ample but welcome exposition in this film, we got a good picture of Wakanda. Unlike some other films where introductions may feel rushed, this film had a great balance between exposition, character building, and action. The whole feel is also pretty different from other Marvel films, with a weird blend of typical tribal African culture, spiritual stuff, and sci-fi, and some "real-world" stuff (including a nice little detour to South-Korea). There's even less focus on the typical Marvel humour, though it's still there. Weirdly enough, this also seems to be balanced well. The cast is fucking great. Every single one of them. And the characters they play. They can all be both endearing, and badass. The Wakanda people almost feel like a complete family which is why the film and its chacacters feels so endearing at times. The sympathy even extends to the "bad guy" this time, who is set-up much better than most, if not all previous villains, and actually has a reason to be bad. Special mention of Shuri, I didn't know much about the film beforehand actually, though I read somewhere she was great, and she is in fact, utterly adorable. She's the girl from the last Black Mirror episode. Martin Freeman is also cool as always, but he's also the only one to stand out.  Perhaps "genuine" is the best word to describe the film. The little details, everything to make a fictional African culture, like the way they dance during the ritual combat, it really feels like it's done with love by anyone involved. It feels real, you really buy it.

Every complaint I may have are nitpicks, not worth mentioning. Except I find it funny the adorable Shuri seems to be responsible for everything scientific in the film. But whatever, she's adorable.

Alright, 2 specific things: I like how they use spears to solve problems, and my favourite scene is maybe

Spoiler

the "confrontation" between Okoye and Nakia after Killmonger assumes the throne.

As for the credit scenes, I didn't know what they were, but

Spoiler

while no infinity stone, it should've been obvious. It was nice.

It didn't the deserve the lack of hype beforehand (that's how I felt anyway), it does deserve the hype which it now slowly seems to be getting. It's an excellent last Marvel film before all hell breaks loose in Infinity War.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Sméagol

[Nolan]

About a week ago I googled it to check the release date and a CNN headline put a sour taste in my mouth.

 “Black Panther is for film what Barack Obama was for the presidency”

I’ll see the movie eventually but that sort of writing/headline/comparison is just vile. 

 

Edit, also oddly the movie isn’t out until tomorrow in the US. 

Edited February 15, 2018 by Nolan

[Fierce_LiNk]

I'm not particularly big on Marvel's films, particularly their style. But, I've had my eye on Black Panther for some time and it just keeps grabbing my attention. Think @Eenuh wants to see Coco first, but I'll try to convince her to see this, too.

[Rummy]

1 hour ago, Fierce_LiNk said:

I'm not particularly big on Marvel's films, particularly their style. But, I've had my eye on Black Panther for some time and it just keeps grabbing my attention. Think @Eenuh wants to see Coco first, but I'll try to convince her to see this, too.

Do eeet. It isn't like other Marvel films. I really wanna see it again lol, I'm sure I'm overhyping it in my memory.

Great little summary review there btw @Sméagol you've hit on a lot of points I think really made it for me, too.

[Hero-of-Time]

Just got back from seeing it and thought it was garbage, as did the rest of the lads. Hands down the worst film in the MCU for me. The whole thing just felt completely flat and lacked any epic set piece, moment or speech. Everything was very predictable and the comedy moments didn't hit at all with me and my mates or with the rest of the cinema either.

[Rummy]

On 16/02/2018 at 8:12 PM, Hero-of-Time said:

Just got back from seeing it and thought it was garbage, as did the rest of the lads. Hands down the worst film in the MCU for me. The whole thing just felt completely flat and lacked any epic set piece, moment or speech. Everything was very predictable and the comedy moments didn't hit at all with me and my mates or with the rest of the cinema either.

A response I never expected to see, as I absolutely loved it(!!), but valid. What was it particularly that you didn't like, if anything? I do feel it's very different to the other MCU films(tho in itself and its nature very comicbook marvel given that) but that's also what makes it so great for me. It's a really good film by itself imo, I'm not sure if the tie to Marvel does or undoes it due to preconceptions though. I'm actually gonna take a mate and go see it again on Tuesday(but I do pay for a cineworld card so maybe I wouldn't otherwise) and I'm sposed to be going NYC in a few weeks - my cousins are grown but younger than me and I'm gonna take them too if they haven't seen it by time I'm there

Ofc, like anything I realise it's not for every one, but this film....I really fucking loved. I thought I'd spent most of my life just waiting for a Spider-Man film, but maybe I was actually waiting for this.

[Hero-of-Time]

1 hour ago, Rummy said:

A response I never expected to see, as I absolutely loved it(!!), but valid. What was it particularly that you didn't like?

I just felt like the whole thing was bland and lacked spectacle. There was no hype moment when you knew things were really going to kick off.  The fight at the end was boring and, outside of Black Panther and Killmonger, the cast of the film were shocking.

[bob]

I thought it was pretty good. Loved the exploration of a sci-fi African culture, especially the Masaii warrior women - they were so badass.

I look forward to a sequel, if it gets one, which it probably will.

[MoogleViper]

I thought it was good. Definitely not as good as people are saying but good. The good points have been mentioned so I'll focus on the bad.

The fight scenes were pretty shit (particularly the last one). No excitement, no tension. Kinda felt like I was waiting for them to be over.

Would have liked to have more backstory on killmonger, and more spotlight on the internal Wakandan debate of being isolated vs opening up. For me that's the main part of the story but focuses on a single line from Lupita, then Killmonger saying we need to help people, let's do it with war, Black Panther: not with war, I kill you now I just give away our technology like nobody in Wakanda will object.

 

[MoogleViper]

On 2/15/2018 at 4:37 PM, Nolan said:

About a week ago I googled it to check the release date and a CNN headline put a sour taste in my mouth.

 “Black Panther is for film what Barack Obama was for the presidency”

I’ll see the movie eventually but that sort of writing/headline/comparison is just vile. 

What's wrong with that?

[Nolan]

I don’t find the two comparable. It’s overly political for what amounts to a superhero movie. Sure the movie did fucking great and it had the mainly black cast and proves black leads can blah blah blah. It’s a fucking Marvel superhero comic movie. They’re formulaic, it was going to do well if they cast the lead as a sponge. It isn’t half the accomplishment people think it is, same as Wonder Woman. 

So really, what does it “do” for the film industry?

[Rummy]

On 22/02/2018 at 12:21 PM, Nolan said:

I don’t find the two comparable. It’s overly political for what amounts to a superhero movie. Sure the movie did fucking great and it had the mainly black cast and proves black leads can blah blah blah. It’s a fucking Marvel superhero comic movie. They’re formulaic, it was going to do well if they cast the lead as a sponge. It isn’t half the accomplishment people think it is, same as Wonder Woman. 

So really, what does it “do” for the film industry?

Personally, and I'm a big marvel fan, I found it less formulaic than the others.

As for the Obama quote, I kind of agreed because it over-trivialised Obama as a real-world phenomenon, but let me make a point I've been shying away from.

I'm not black. I used to say I'm brown. More recently I'm realising increasingly I don't really know *what* I am because the definition of my history and culture(plus being WIndian of recent times) has been very heavily erased or unportrayed etc. Why am I talking about it? Becuase I grew up, as a massive marvel fan, LOVING spider-man. Funnily enough it was via a Spiderman comic that in my mind must have been 60s published originally(I read in the 90s) I knew Black Panther. I spent my life from the late 80s until 2000s waiting for another spiderman film that I thought would finally be the superhero film I always needed. Rewind before that though there's a weird thing being a kid in the playground who, despite clearly being the most knowledgeable of the superhero game at hand, is not allowed to be any of the heroes not because he doesn't know them but because he's not white enough. That's a bit of an unexpected comment - but it's got a point.

Now, that's essentially the lead-in for why Black Panther was, imo even just on one let alone many more levels, amazing. It's the same reason why Wonder Woman was great for women and young girls etc - it offered representation that is so often unseen for so much of society. Black Panther, for me even 'not being black' as it were, was....goddamn. It wasn't my culture strictly (though I see some parallels between it and what I'm currently sort of learning of Hinduism and a stratified society of the time, not to mention with that a reference to Lord Hanuman on behalf of M'Baku in the challenge) but to see something so less western and arguably more eastern like; was just really really amazing. It didn't feel tokenised of fethishised much if even at all, and the really strong cast and characterisation made that even more impactful. I spoke afterwards to my Ghanain friend I used to work with(we bonded over Zelda/SS coming out lel) and he really loved it too. All the culuture stuff etc, all the representation, he felt it was faithful, on point, and relevant - it felt like....in some ways I guess, a bit like a rediscovery. Its moral undertones and the juxtaposition of the greater good vs the individual etc and its recursive nature was interesting too imo. Killmonger's last line was a hard-hitting one imo given the above etc.

It wasn't even just the black angle either though, the female representation was just fucking amazing too. I cannot tell you how much I loved the film almost for how it was everything that it wasn't what you expected it to be. 'Main' characterwise there's what, 2 white people? Strong leads wise there's what - 3-4 women for 2-3 on the protagonists' side? One of whom is an army general and the other a spy in her own right? One that is literally probably the smartest person in the whole nation/world re: vibranium and basically still a kid? As for unexpectedness normally I go into a film constantly overthinking and second-guessing - usually I'll see the eventually theme coming earlier than many(tho maybe cos I think too much :p) and I also get restless when films are super long etc - but this fucked me at every turn on my predictions until I gave up thinking of them, and I was also surprised in realising how late it was about 20 minutes after I'd gotten out of the cinema. For me, it was just a bit rare an experience - but I can absolutely see and understand mine would easily be different to very many others'.

[Jonnas]

Saw the film yesterday. It's really damn good. Memorable characters, some of the best worldbuilding I've seen in ages, very captivating imagery, and a plot interested in generating discussion. Highly recommended.

Spoiler

-Love how well they highlight how advanced Wakanda is. You know how sometimes a fictional magical/sci-fi world falls into the trap of looking less impressive than the real world (like how long-distance communication in Harry Potter is less efficient than the internet, or how lasers in Star Wars travel slower than bullets)? With hi-tech spears, it was easy to fall into that trap, so I'm glad we get a chase sequence in Korea just to show how useless modern weaponry is to Wakandans.

-Shuri is adorable. Favourite character in a film with a strong cast. I want to see her schooling Tony Stark.

-Speaking only as a privileged white European, the contrast between T'Challa meeting his ancestors in a vast plain, and Killmonger meeting only his father in a cramped apartment was an excellent way to communicate how much damage Europeans did to Africa. While I can't relate to that on a personal level, it's moments like this that help me understand how disenfranchised African-descendants feel.

-Surprisingly strong villains this time around, considering that's MCU's weak spot. Disappointed that Klaw died so soon, I think he could've been a good recurring villain.

-Generally speaking, it's just good to see a Hollywood production that pays genuine respect to African cultures.

Also, I've been reading Ta-Nahesi Coates' recent run on Black Panther, and I don't think any of the stuff he added to the mythos made it into the film. So there's material for a sequel, which I hope is bound to happen.

[Rummy]

The world building of it is a point I've seen positively a couple of times now. Wakanda reminded me of this meme...

[Sméagol]

You know, except those white people were black a long, long time ago.

[Sméagol]

A bit of fun trivia, but Black Panther will be the first film to screen in Saudi Arabia after they lifted the ban on cinemas.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-studio-chiefs-hail-opening-saudi-arabias-first-cinema-1104036

[Grazza]

I watched this last night and, though it's not entirely without merit, generally found it unpleasant.  For one thing it's extremely violent.  The female warriors stab various men in the genitals and break their arms - is that really acceptable?  Reverse the genders and it would be called misogyny, but I suppose here it's meant to be "empowering".

 

Nor did I love the racial politics.  It would be great if it was a good super hero film that just happens to have mainly African characters, but that's not what it is.  You were clearly meant to have sympathy with Killmonger.  Whilst some of his points were valid, to put that alongside him poisoning museum staff was distasteful.  And the tribe "barking" at Martin Freeman and telling him he wasn't allowed to speak... Is racism meant to be entertaining when it's against white people?

 

Chadwick Boseman is brilliant, but I feel like they hijacked his charisma so people would watch a film about racial identity politics.  The character, Back Panther, is good.  I like the way he moves and fights, but it was extremely odd how little his own film seemed to be about him.  T'Challa himself is a likeable character, and his speech (shunted to the mid-credits) about us being "one tribe" was commendable, but actions speak louder than words, and I wasn't entirely convinced the film agreed with him.

 

On a positive note, I quite liked the story about an honourable king defending his position, and Letitia Wright as Shuri was as likeable as Boseman.  I look forward to seeing them in other films, but won't be watching any more from this specific franchise.

[Jonnas]

17 hours ago, Grazza said:

The female warriors stab various men in the genitals

I legitimately do not remember this happening. Is it during the fight at the Korean bar?

17 hours ago, Grazza said:

Nor did I love the racial politics.  It would be great if it was a good super hero film that just happens to have mainly African characters, but that's not what it is.  You were clearly meant to have sympathy with Killmonger.  Whilst some of his points were valid, to put that alongside him poisoning museum staff was distasteful.

Generally speaking, a villain having a sympathetic backstory is not the same thing as himself being sympathetic, or right. Killmonger's existence forces T'Challa to confront an ugly reality about his own country, but his plan and view of the world are absolutely bonkers. Being a monster isn't mutually exclusive with being a victim, and I think that's what the film was trying to portray with its villain.

On a side-note, I love how this film portrayed race. Killmonger is deadset on the idea that black people should be united against the whites, while Wakandans are all like "What are you on about? We're Wakandan, they're not. What the hell does colour have to do with anything?". Different countries and cultures have different ideas on what constitutes a "race" or a "group", and it's so rare to see an American film actually portray that nuance.

17 hours ago, Grazza said:

Chadwick Boseman is brilliant, but I feel like they hijacked his charisma so people would watch a film about racial identity politics.  The character, Back Panther, is good.  I like the way he moves and fights, but it was extremely odd how little his own film seemed to be about him.  T'Challa himself is a likeable character, and his speech (shunted to the mid-credits) about us being "one tribe" was commendable, but actions speak louder than words, and I wasn't entirely convinced the film agreed with him.

T'Challa's view of the world and of his country evolves throughout the film. I'm sure that his final conclusion (that Wakanda should open up to the world and engage in more humanitarian missions, but through proper, diplomatic means) is what the film agrees with.

As an aside, I think the film was more about Wakanda than T'Challa himself, and I think that that was a good move. I think any film about a King (or any other important political figure), should put a strong emphasis into the nation that said King is meant to protect.

17 hours ago, Grazza said:

Reverse the genders and it would be called misogyny, but I suppose here it's meant to be "empowering".

(...)

And the tribe "barking" at Martin Freeman and telling him he wasn't allowed to speak... Is racism meant to be entertaining when it's against white people?

To address these two points, I... half-agree with them:

I don't think the women's display of violence is sexist (because if they were men, the scenes would play almost exactly the same way), but I have seen comments online about how Killmonger was misogynist due to the way he treated the old clerics in Wakanda, as well as his girlfriend (when in reality, he treated the priest, as well as Ulysses Klaw, just as callously as the women). I do think there's a double standard in the reaction to violence in this film, I just don't think the Dora Milaje fighting off enemy soldiers was part of it.

As for Martin Freeman being barked at, I interpreted the scene as "The foreigner thinks he's got more clout than he actually does", which is fine by me, seeing as the entire scene was about internal Wakandan politics (not to mention, Freeman being out of his element is the point of his character). What I thought was weird was the Wakandans referring to him as "colonizer", when he was never particularly racist or condescending towards Africans, nor were Wakandans ever particularly bothered by colonization. It felt like the film was trying to make a point, but sacrificing internal consistency to do it.

[Grazza]

30 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

I legitimately do not remember this happening. Is it during the fight at the Korean bar?

 

Yeah, and at the beginning when they're rescuing the girls from the Boko Haram style kidnappers.

 

30 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

Generally speaking, a villain having a sympathetic backstory is not the same thing as himself being sympathetic, or right. Killmonger's existence forces T'Challa to confront an ugly reality about his own country, but his plan and view of the world are absolutely bonkers. Being a monster isn't mutually exclusive with being a victim, and I think that's what the film was trying to portray with its villain.

 

You're right, but there was just something I didn't like about it, especially when we first see him at the museum (in fact, I quite liked him later on).  All good villains invite sympathy to an extent (which is probably why they applied it to Thanos), but when Loki or Obadiah attack someone (the two best that came to mind quickly), it's not so attached to real-world politics.  With so much debate about the rights and wrongs of the past going on at the moment, trying to get statues taken down etc, let's be honest, some of the audience would have been cheering him on.  Something about that museum scene in particular seemed callous.

 

30 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

T'Challa's view of the world and of his country evolves throughout the film. I'm sure that his final conclusion (that Wakanda should open up to the world and engage in more humanitarian missions, but through proper, diplomatic means) is what the film agrees with.

 

I think T'Challa is likeable all the way through.  Whether stepping back or helping out, they're both fair enough stances.

 

30 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

To address these two points, I... half-agree with them:

I don't think the women's display of violence is sexist (because if they were men, the scenes would play almost exactly the same way), but I have seen comments online about how Killmonger was misogynist due to the way he treated the old clerics in Wakanda, as well as his girlfriend (when in reality, he treated the priest, as well as Ulysses Klaw, just as callously as the women). I do think there's a double standard in the reaction to violence in this film, I just don't think the Dora Milaje fighting off enemy soldiers was part of it.

 

This is a wider issue, to be fair.  I really hate female-on-male violence in most films.  The woman in Ant-Man just punches him unprovoked (supposedly for "training") and in Civil War, Black Widow kicks the same character in the groin - in both instances it's meant to be funny.  But if you had male characters striking female ones in the genitals, people would realise it's not funny or entertaining.

 

I agree Killmonger wasn't particularly misogynistic, as you were meant to be appalled at the way he treated the Wakandans.  I don't agree with the emboldened part, however, as you simply don't see male characters use the same type of violence.  Imagine if Thor deliberately broke arms or stabbed people in the genitals - he'd be really unlikeable, but when women do it it's meant to be badass.

[Jonnas]

On 17/06/2018 at 9:59 PM, Grazza said:

You're right, but there was just something I didn't like about it, especially when we first see him at the museum (in fact, I quite liked him later on).  All good villains invite sympathy to an extent (which is probably why they applied it to Thanos), but when Loki or Obadiah attack someone (the two best that came to mind quickly), it's not so attached to real-world politics.  With so much debate about the rights and wrongs of the past going on at the moment, trying to get statues taken down etc, let's be honest, some of the audience would have been cheering him on.  Something about that museum scene in particular seemed callous.

Truth be told, sympathetic motives are going to resonate with someone regardless, so someone in the audience cheering for such a villain is inevitable (I mean, there are people still arguing that Thanos was right). It's up to the film to represent why this person is wrong, despite the sympathetic motives, and I think BP handled it well. We're never meant to think his actions at the museum were justified (and indeed, that incident happens way before we learn of his backstory), and several characters refute his thirst for vengeance in different ways. The film is not saying "Gee, poor Erik" as much as it's saying "this villain is a product of flaws that need addressing".

Presenting real-life issues in a film is always a risk, as one can always botch or misrepresent the issue, but the pay-off can be good if done right, as the film then becomes influential in its own right, and part of the widespread debate. I certainly don't fault the attempt, as films can always help the audience view an issue in a way that simple words cannot (like I posted previously, Killmonger's headspace being his apartment is a subtle, but powerful image).

On 17/06/2018 at 9:59 PM, Grazza said:

This is a wider issue, to be fair.  I really hate female-on-male violence in most films.  The woman in Ant-Man just punches him unprovoked (supposedly for "training") and in Civil War, Black Widow kicks the same character in the groin - in both instances it's meant to be funny.  But if you had male characters striking female ones in the genitals, people would realise it's not funny or entertaining.

I agree Killmonger wasn't particularly misogynistic, as you were meant to be appalled at the way he treated the Wakandans.  I don't agree with the emboldened part, however, as you simply don't see male characters use the same type of violence.  Imagine if Thor deliberately broke arms or stabbed people in the genitals - he'd be really unlikeable, but when women do it it's meant to be badass.

I agree with one point: men getting hit in the groin (not just from women) is too often played for comedy, or otherwise treated lightly. Even when you see someone get shot in the gonads, it's meant as dark comedy, rather than a serious scene (a certain scene in Pulp Fiction springs to mind).

But the rest of your post still sounds like unisex violence. Hapless guys getting their clock cleaned by a mentor/coach is a pretty common trope. And your description of a superhero breaking some limbs reminds me of when Batman broke a guy's legs during interrogation, with a quippy one-liner, no less. That's without mentioning the likes of Jack Bauer, who often tortured people in scenes meant to be cool.

I'm not saying these scenes are okay (well, I'm okay with the mentor/coach thing, but not the other bits), rather I'm saying this is not a case of women-on-men violence being unique or particularly widespread: they're problematic tropes associated with general Hollywood violence which are occasionally applied to women-on-men violence as well.

[Rummy]

On 16/06/2018 at 3:19 PM, Grazza said:

Andd the tribe "barking" at Martin Freeman and telling him he wasn't allowed to speak... Is racism meant to be entertaining when it's against white people?

Ok, let me get to this very quickly, albeit not succinctly. First general caveat - your opinions and views come second in my mind to your conduct, and whilst I understand sometimes people disagree with you and it doesn't feel great I will generally respect that conduct because who's right or wrong essentially isn't easily dichotomous.

Having said that, let me come to an almost visceral reaction I had to the above - and that's basically the to say fuck you. But not to say fuck you personally, but fuck this idea, and fuck you for having it. Or even coming about of having it. I'm not blaming you for having it, but I take great issue with it.

Have you ever been told you don't belong? Have you ever been monkey noised out of a crowd, or mocked otherwise for something that may not even have anything to do with you but the big crowd of folks decide upon despite seeing nothing but your skin, and deciding how they'll treat you from that? Have you ever been told to get out, or that you don't belong, or later on felt to feel like that, simply for having the audacity of having a differently pigmented skin?

Now ofc, all of that is rhetorical. I'm not saying you won't ever have experienced racism nor discrimination, nor do I want to compete on that front. But I'm just saying, I've experienced it in a fair few forms and have identified a number of people who have too.

Tell me here - where was the racism in monkey noises to Freeman's character? Consider what I've said and how much monkey noises might offend white folks compared to non-white folks, both on individual levels and collective average levels. I think it'd be much worse if they took some traditionally negative 'white stereotype' and used it, but they actually used the thing they've often been completely unfoundedly mocked for themselves, and turned it on itself in an incredibly parody that highlights the absurdity of its very own nature. More they highlighted the issue of collective majorities suppressing present minorities simply on a front of numbers, power, position and time.

Please please don't flip unnecessary discussions of discrimination into a one-to-one false dichotomy, or do if you like, but I will call it. If you want me to get into the crux of why the argument never truly holds up is because X million people whose suffering over Y number of years really does not compare to <X million people suffering over <Y number of years really does not draw a fair immediate comparison. This gets info a far more logical/mathematical/philosophical/political realm and I also think we should have that discussion too! But I struggle to find a conclusion in an unbalanced logic.

But let come back - 'is racism meant to be entertaining when it's against white people'? What made it racist in that context?

 

(PS please do let me make the point again, I'm taking no personal objection here so please don't take it as such. Not taking or making/intending any personal aspects to the arguments)

[Grazza]

2 hours ago, Rummy said:

Ok, let me get to this very quickly, albeit not succinctly. First general caveat - your opinions and views come second in my mind to your conduct, and whilst I understand sometimes people disagree with you and it doesn't feel great I will generally respect that conduct because who's right or wrong essentially isn't easily dichotomous.

Having said that, let me come to an almost visceral reaction I had to the above - and that's basically the to say fuck you. But not to say fuck you personally, but fuck this idea, and fuck you for having it. Or even coming about of having it. I'm not blaming you for having it, but I take great issue with it.

 

What a jerk.  You're not even worth talking to, Rummy, whilst you've let your ego grow so massive.

[Rummy]

15 hours ago, Grazza said:

 

What a jerk.  You're not even worth talking to, Rummy, whilst you've let your ego grow so massive.

Ok, I did expect to be able to have the conversation with you of all people on it Grazza. I put a lengthy explaination of a background to ask the last question of what made it racist before having to contextualise that later, but sorrry if I've offended you with that.