Dog-amoto Posted December 18, 2019 Posted December 18, 2019 Lot of reviews are saying this film tries to do too much, pays way too much fan service and is a bit of a convoluted mess, despite its strengths. Currently sitting on 54% on Rotten Tomatoes. For comparison, Last Jedi is on 91% and Force Awakens is 93%. Will obviously wait till tomorrow to form my own opinion, but it did seem from the get go that Disney never had an overarching plan for where this new trilogy would go. This episode in particular was fraught with production troubles what with Carrie Fisher’s death and Colin Trevorrow’s departure. I’m sure I’ll still have a great time watching it for the first time, but I’ve a feeling that it won’t hold up well under repeat viewings.
Will Posted December 19, 2019 Posted December 19, 2019 Well... Spoiler I didn't hate it as much as TLJ but it does confirm this as the worst trilogy for me. There is no difference to where we are now (emporer defeated and peace restored) from where we were at the end of the original trilogy. Nothing was added to the world and it effectively wiped out any importance of the redemption of Vader and the neat closing of that story arc. I think had this have been the second film, and it had ended in some situation where it seemed there was no hope then the next film could have done something to really make this special. As it is I think I'll try to ignore the fact that these films were ever made.
Dog-amoto Posted December 19, 2019 Posted December 19, 2019 I enjoyed Last Jedi, but this was pretty bad to be honest. Spoiler With all due respect, the death of Carrie Fisher ruined this movie, they really would’ve been better either killing her off in VIII or doing what they did with Tarkin in Rogue One. The scenes with her in were extremely jarring. I don’t think they would have brought back Harrison Ford as it seemed that his scene was always meant for Fisher. They also did a terrible job with Rey’s parentage. I liked TLJ’s idea of her being a nobody, and they completely brushed aside the notion that there were other Force sensitive people in the Galaxy. All we found out was she was Palpatine’s granddaughter...it didn’t explore her parents’ story at all...did Palpatine have a son or daughter? Who with? Why did they escape from him in the first place? And the big one...how did Palpatine even survive? They just brushed over the clone explanation and that he had a bunch of fanatics who brought him back. I felt they needed another movie just to explain all that, but tried to shoehorn everything into one just to try and appease the fans who hated TLJ. And I agree with Will, we were in no different a position than we were in at the end of VI. In fact, just as VII was a rehash of IV, this often felt like a rehash of Return of the Jedi.
Julius Posted December 19, 2019 Author Posted December 19, 2019 (edited) Went to the midnight showing last night, had some thoughts I wanted to share but the forum was down, so I noted them down while waiting for my taxi. So, here are my completely unasked for thoughts and feelings on TROS after my first viewing. Warning: expletives ahead. Spoiler This film is a fucking mess. Good God, you can really tell that Oscar-winning screenwriter Chris Terrio (Batman vs Superman, Justice League) had a hand in this script and that JJ has never had to wrap a story up in his life. First things first, and what had me holding my head in my hands just twenty minutes or so into this film: the pacing of this film is absolutely atrocious. Opening crawl, trumpets piercing the heavens, yada, yada, yada, then we get Kylo destroying some random alien dudes and finding the Sith wayfinder; travelling to and landing on Exegol, exchange with The Emperor; let's watch Rey run through her training routine, "oh no Kylo got to Exegol and The Emperor is back for real!" followed by "I know the way - let's go to Pasaana!" a few seconds later; and then finally we're on Pasaana, before everything goes down there. And that's just the planets, forgetting other key locations such as ship interiors. Now that I think about it, I can't recall many of the traditional transition wipes being used (if any at all?) – if they were, I'm forgetting because the film kept hard cutting from one place to another in a way that it felt like I was slamming my head from one wall to another. Lightspeed skipping is a concept that we're introduced to quite early on in this film before it never returns in any real meaningful way, and that's how I'd best describe the pacing of the film: skip from one beat to the next with a bunch of hard cuts. I can't recall a single scene in this film being given time to breathe. It's like this film was in a rush to get to the ending, and spill out all of its answers on the way there. I don't think it would be hyperbole to suggest that this has the worst pacing of any Star Wars film to date. I recall A New Hope being described in multiple occasions as being saved in the edit – I'd argue that The Rise of Skywalker was destroyed in it. Not that that's the only bad thing about the film, though. Let's hard cut now, lightspeed skip style, to the core reason as to why this film is clearly such a mess, and why it ends up needing to cut so forcefully and fast: the attempt to cram two films' worth of content into one, and in many ways, undoing some of The Last Jedi's strongest moments in the process, and having a core plot which is a convoluted mess. No joke, it feels like there aren't three wisely structured acts holding this film up, but two shaky and uneven halves, each trying to do their own thing, and some fetch quests thrown in for good measure. Snoke is thrown under the bus and turns out to be one of a number of clones, which is completely glanced over, rendering Ben's decision to kill him in the last film pointless (of course Palpatine wanted him to slay Snoke to push him further towards the dark side, but seriously?). The revelation that not only did Palpatine have a child, but hey, Rey was their daughter and Palpatine wanted her to kill him so that he could live on in her along with the Sith, quite literally, by using her as a vessel, but no hold on a second actually he wanted to drain her life force to return to his state at the end of Revenge of the Sith? Still an ugly as fuck, wrinkled to all hell Sith who looks like he spent far too long in the sauna, in fact maybe that's where Snoke got his taste for bathrobes from... – seriously, who the hell slept with this guy?! Or did he create his son...to have a child, Rey, whom he could then...do you see where I'm going with this? It's a real mess. And hey, in all fairness, Palpatine's son and his daughter-in-law did a great job of protecting Rey from this mad clown of a villain. So, obviously, Rey renounces the Palpatine name in their honour and adopts the legendary Skywalker surname...spitting on everything that the name stands for, on Rian Johnson's well-received and risky push for Rey to be a nobody, and on the expectations of the fans. It quite literally weakens some of the major beats of the preceding two entries in the Saga. But hey, Ben finally gets redeemed after being tossed into a pit only to die in a very slightly different way to Anakin, this time by giving Rey his life force, right? Then becomes one with the Force before never being seen again. Yikes. And to think that Adam Driver's performance is the highlight of this film, with virtually all of the very, very brief glimpses of greatness and of a Star Wars film coming with him on the screen. He's been the redeeming quality of this trilogy as a whole, and while I love Daisy Ridley as Rey, it's abundantly clear that Adam is on a whole other level in his portrayal of Ben/Kylo, who ends up playing out yet another Skywalker tragedy. A couple of one-liners from 3PO warranted a chuckle, but man, this film is such a mess. A lot of the plot devices - the wayfinders, the Force dyad connection of Rey and Ben allowing them to exchange life energy and heal others, etc. - just feel so forced. In all earnest, I think that this trilogy is going to age very poorly. While the prequels were poorly executed, the general ideas George Lucas had and threw passion behind have aged pretty well, whereas this film feels like a checklist of explanations and set pieces. Don't even get me started on Aayla Secura, Luminara and Adi Gallia turning up as voices of the Force...URGH. Got another viewing tonight with the guys from work, and boy, do I still have a LOT to say, but I'll leave it there for now, because I'm actually getting frustrated just thinking about it. I'll close this ramble out by saying this: whilst things like Rogue One and The Mandalorian - as well as quite a few parts of The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi, and Solo - go to prove that Disney is capable of recapturing some of the best of Star Wars, it's very clear that the creative process needs to be given more time to allow ideas to be flesh out and bounced around, and I think that it is indefensible that George Lucas's story treatments for this trilogy were tossed aside. That he wasn't even a story advisor goes to show the hubris of some of the higher-ups at Disney after the purchase. I genuinely think that a sequel trilogy overseen by, but not directed by, George would have been far greater than what we ended up with. Edited December 19, 2019 by Julius 3
Dog-amoto Posted December 19, 2019 Posted December 19, 2019 @Julius you have summed up my feelings for this film perfectly. I actually forgot how much I enjoyed 3PO in this film. And the fact that was probably the bit I enjoyed most is really depressing.
Will Posted December 19, 2019 Posted December 19, 2019 Yeah, I totally agree with @Julius too. I especially agree that George being involved, at least for an overview, would have added greatly to this trilogy.
Julius Posted December 19, 2019 Author Posted December 19, 2019 (edited) So, just seen a Fortnite tie-in for the film that's really worth noting for those who have already seen the film (@will', @Dog-amoto)... Spoiler The Emperor's broadcast mentioned in the opening crawl is in Fortnite, but NOT the film itself?! Burn me alive and call me Anakin, because yikes is this a mess. Remember the age old sage advice in visual storytelling of "show, don't tell"? It's like JJ hid that in one of his precious mystery boxes. That early pacing could have been much better if it started with Kylo winning his battle, having Rey train, people being in the middle of delivering some exposition on how the war's been going before BAM! a transmission from The Emperor?! Also, considering just how strong Rey and Kylo are in the Force, and that we know that deaths can be sensed from planets away through the Force...why did we need the Sith wayfinder to get to Exegol in the first place? The Emperor was screaming for Rey and Kylo to come to him, and yet nobody could sense the return of this unreal and immense dark side calamity returning through the Force? My frustration right now is only interrupted by my amusement that Fortnite has contributed to Star Wars canon. What in the world... Edited December 19, 2019 by Julius
Sméagol Posted December 19, 2019 Posted December 19, 2019 Haha.. wow. I thought the other films already were a mess. I've already given up, and decided after Star Wars VIII I'd never see another. @Julius seemed more hyped than anyone here. Though it does make me curious, and there's a tiny part of me that now wants to see it, to see for myself how much of a trainwreck it actually is. It's free for me, I won't be wasting money, but I would be wasting time.. I'm unlikely to bother. But I'm looking forward to hear my brother's thoughts when he comes back.. He also went yesterday. He can tell me how bad Star Wars was, I can tell him how bad Game of Thrones season 8 was. 1
Mandalore Posted December 19, 2019 Posted December 19, 2019 Went in with low expectations after The Last Jedi. I didn't come out of the cinema amazed, it was enjoyable though. Overall I'd rate this trilogy as the worst one. Not sure if I spoilt myself by reading so much of the expanded universe books over the years.
killthenet Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 Greg Grunberg's character got killed off - that was one of the only bright spots. Abrams doesn't settle on one location for long enough, the film jumps around way too much.
bob Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 Saw it on Sunday night. Wasn't great. Comfortably the worst Star Wars film. Plot and script was all over the place. I might go into more detail if i can be arsed faffing about with spoiler tags. 5/10
killthenet Posted December 24, 2019 Posted December 24, 2019 (edited) Just read your thoughts @Julius, completely agree with you. I'm watching the EZA spoiler mode at the moment and they're saying a lot of the same things. It's bizarre that Star Wars is under the same banner as the MCU, you'd have thought in trying to emulate the success of that shared universe they would have taken Feige's advice and had someone marshalling the whole trilogy. The prequels never really felt like Star Wars and the latest 'trilogy' doesn't either, there was a clear formula to the original films that they could have subverted in interesting ways but instead they threw in a bunch of fan service and made a mess of the whole thing. The lack of payoff was the most disappointing thing. I've never been that into Marvel so didn't really care much about the MCU to begin with but through watching the big movies they actually drew me in and got me emotionally invested in the characters - Endgame definitely had issues but it was a satisfying end to the saga. Edited December 24, 2019 by killthenet
Happenstance Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 Just got back from seeing it. Thought it was good but not great with some pacing issues and too much planet hopping. I also spent a lot of it waiting for this: Spoiler
Ashley Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 Saw it earlier and I'll post my thoughts tomorrow but just remembered something and wanted to ask Spoiler What the hell is a spice runner? I forget smaller details like this. Is it a drug runner because spice is the name of a drug but it sounds very non-Disney
Julius Posted December 31, 2019 Author Posted December 31, 2019 16 minutes ago, Ashley said: Saw it earlier and I'll post my thoughts tomorrow but just remembered something and wanted to ask Minor spoiler I guess (Hide contents) What the hell is a spice runner? I forget smaller details like this. Is it a drug runner because spice is the name of a drug but it sounds very non-Disney Spoiler Spice is an illicit substance, so yeah, basically a substance we would view as a drug. You're right: a spice runner is basically a drug runner in that they'll transport the substance from one location to another, typically from planet to planet. And you're absolutely right in thinking that it's non-Disney, as Lucas introduced it in the first film (side note: pretty sure it's a very direct nod to(/borrowing of?) melange, referred to as "the spice" in Dune). Off the top of my head from ANH, it is referenced: - When the imperials board the Tantive IV, we hear that C-3PO fears that he and R2 will be sent to the spice mines of Kessel (side note 2: as seen in Solo). - Han Solo was a spice runner, and him having to dump some spice is what landed him in trouble with Jabba. Also, - Luke thought that his father was a spice runner working on a navigation freighter - man, must've been a real bummer to learn that his father wasn't just dealing drugs, but was instead the evil, magical Space Fuhrer. 1
Ashley Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 Cheers @Julius, I figured it was just something I'd forgotten about. Anyway, my thoughts from yesterday's viewing in the spoiler tag below. Probably annoying some fans as I can't recall what things are called so its mostly nicknames. Spoiler I was rolling my eyes at the whole Rey lineage thing. I actually thought it was one of the best decisions they made in the Last Jedi to say "nah, it doesn't matter" but nope, this is Space Dallas I guess. I did then later realise, at the end of the last film they seemed to be hinting that more people had the force and I guess not? Or they're going to pretend not. And then similarly at the celebration scene at the end were they trying to tease that the woman was related to Lando? That was my interpretation. While I don't think the franchise needs this big overaching plan with lots of interconnected films and winks and nods like the MCU, it is a shame they seemed to have no overall plan for the trilogy. At least some notion of where it was going. I didn't hate the film. It was fine I guess, but that is because I have no particular passion towards this franchise. I think I've only ever seen each film once; maybe bits of the original trilogy I've caught on TV but certainly I've never really gotten into it. In fact, had these films not come out at Christmas (where I can watch them while at home) I probably would have missed them. Although I saw it yesterday and struggling to remember what happened which is either reflective of a bad movie or a bad memory. The SpaceTime scenes were kind of interesting, especially when they merged reality with them, but the hokey "your joint energy" thing with Palpatine at the end was urgh. It was kind of a shame they killed Ben off, would have been more interesting to think of him and Rey trying to balance each other out going forward. I actually think my favourite bit was when they were riding the space horses in battle and Finn said to BB-8 something like "you're doing great little buddy". Yeah, boost that little bot's morale! Poor little bot, it's been through a lot. Also amused (not the right word) about how they made a ho-hah about how there's a gay kiss in the film and it's like 2 minutes before the end between woman with 2 lines and woman with no lines. Good work Disney. Oh and the intro crawl. "THE DEAD SPEAK!" was such bad writing. I know Star Wars has always been corny and hackneyed, but come on!
Happenstance Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 19 minutes ago, Ashley said: Thoughts on film (Hide contents) I was rolling my eyes at the whole Rey lineage thing. I actually thought it was one of the best decisions they made in the Last Jedi to say "nah, it doesn't matter" but nope, this is Space Dallas I guess. I did then later realise, at the end of the last film they seemed to be hinting that more people had the force and I guess not? Or they're going to pretend not. And then similarly at the celebration scene at the end were they trying to tease that the woman was related to Lando? That was my interpretation. While I don't think the franchise needs this big overaching plan with lots of interconnected films and winks and nods like the MCU, it is a shame they seemed to have no overall plan for the trilogy. At least some notion of where it was going. I didn't hate the film. It was fine I guess, but that is because I have no particular passion towards this franchise. I think I've only ever seen each film once; maybe bits of the original trilogy I've caught on TV but certainly I've never really gotten into it. In fact, had these films not come out at Christmas (where I can watch them while at home) I probably would have missed them. Although I saw it yesterday and struggling to remember what happened which is either reflective of a bad movie or a bad memory. The SpaceTime scenes were kind of interesting, especially when they merged reality with them, but the hokey "your joint energy" thing with Palpatine at the end was urgh. It was kind of a shame they killed Ben off, would have been more interesting to think of him and Rey trying to balance each other out going forward. I actually think my favourite bit was when they were riding the space horses in battle and Finn said to BB-8 something like "you're doing great little buddy". Yeah, boost that little bot's morale! Poor little bot, it's been through a lot. Also amused (not the right word) about how they made a ho-hah about how there's a gay kiss in the film and it's like 2 minutes before the end between woman with 2 lines and woman with no lines. Good work Disney. Oh and the intro crawl. "THE DEAD SPEAK!" was such bad writing. I know Star Wars has always been corny and hackneyed, but come on! Spoiler I didnt mind the Rey lineage, it gave her a good link to Ben with both of their grandparents and gave her something to work through, realising that she was not defined by her blood. They didnt necessarily roll back others having access to the force, I mean by the end we can see that Finn does. The bit with Lando and the former stormtrooper was weird. It was like half you're my child and half I want to fuck you 🤮 The lack of proper trilogy plan really did hurt you are right. I didnt necessarily like The Last Jedi but not because of the themes and changes introduced, I just think it was a wasted movie in this particular trilogy that should have been used to build towards this movie. There was no way Ben was surviving this. Despite turning his back on the dark side the guy was still a mass murderer.
Ashley Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 Spoiler I took the Finn thing as just having a close bond rather than the force. Because he luuuuuuuves her. Which remind me, urgh that Ben/Rey kiss. I did see rumours/speculation/fan theories that in the original edit Ben survived actually. This is based on the fact Adam Driver did no press (although he could just be busy) and the fact apparently the last shot of the film lines up with an earlier shot so it was suggested he was supposed to survive and be with her on Tattooine and they edited around it. Not that I necessarily believe it, but would be interesting if true.
Happenstance Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, Ashley said: Response (Hide contents) I took the Finn thing as just having a close bond rather than the force. Because he luuuuuuuves her. Which remind me, urgh that Ben/Rey kiss. I did see rumours/speculation/fan theories that in the original edit Ben survived actually. This is based on the fact Adam Driver did no press (although he could just be busy) and the fact apparently the last shot of the film lines up with an earlier shot so it was suggested he was supposed to survive and be with her on Tattooine and they edited around it. Not that I necessarily believe it, but would be interesting if true. Spoiler Nah, Finn definitely felt the force, it was hinted at multiple times throughout the movie. A lot of people think that was what he wanted to tell Rey, not that he loved her but that he could feel the force. The kiss was completely unnecessary. They had a bond throughout the trilogy sure but it never felt romantic. Felt almost like a producer request to include some romance.
Goafer Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 My main gripe with the film is that there were no consequences to anything. Spoiler Rey stabs Kylo, but then immediately heals him. Rey kills Chewbacca but actually didn't. C3PO gets his memory wiped, then just restored. That planet gets blown up, but the characters we met escaped somehow. Rey confronts a shadow of herself for some reason, then it's gone for some reason. Also, I may be misremembering it, but shouldn't one of the lightsabers at the end have been green? 1
Happenstance Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Goafer said: My main gripe with the film is that there were no consequences to anything. Spoilers (Hide contents) Rey stabs Kylo, but then immediately heals him. Rey kills Chewbacca but actually didn't. C3PO gets his memory wiped, then just restored. That planet gets blown up, but the characters we met escaped somehow. Rey confronts a shadow of herself for some reason, then it's gone for some reason. Also, I may be misremembering it, but shouldn't one of the lightsabers at the end have been green? Nope, that's Luke's second lightsaber. This latest trilogy has only focused on his first, Anakin's blue one. Edit: Spoiler She was burying Luke and Leia's lightsabers, not both of Luke's? Edited January 1, 2020 by Happenstance
Goafer Posted January 2, 2020 Posted January 2, 2020 16 hours ago, Happenstance said: Nope, that's Luke's second lightsaber. This latest trilogy has only focused on his first, Anakin's blue one. Edit: Unless you didn't realise that... (Reveal hidden contents) She was burying Luke and Leia's lightsabers, not both of Luke's? I forgot that Luke had 2. I think it was because it showed his green one earlier in a flashback which confused me. 1
Ashley Posted January 2, 2020 Posted January 2, 2020 Has there ever been an explanation of the colours? Like, do they get to choose? Can they change them?
bob Posted January 2, 2020 Posted January 2, 2020 Has there ever been an explanation of the colours? Like, do they get to choose? Can they change them? I always assumed it's down to the colour of the crystal used to power it. Like how sapphire is blue and ruby is red.
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