Fierce_LiNk Posted June 3, 2017 Posted June 3, 2017 There's an on-going incident taking place right now. First incident took place on London Bridge. A van struck people walking on the bridge. Reports are saying that people got out of the van and used knives on the passers-by. Second incident taking place at Borough Market. Third incident taking place at Vauxhall. Whitehall is saying that this incident has come by surprise and that there was no intelligence leading up to this incident. More than one death confirmed by police.
Glen-i Posted June 3, 2017 Posted June 3, 2017 Metropolitan Police just now confirmed that the incidents at London Bridge and Borough Market are terrorist-related. The stabbings at Vauxhall have also been confirmed as unrelated to the other two. That's a horrible coincidence.
Choze Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 Borough Market is right there, next to London Bridge. In fact one of the tube exits leads directly to Borough Market. The group must have spread out, which is why I am worried its ongoing. These are busy areas 24/7. Stay safe everyone.
Fierce_LiNk Posted June 4, 2017 Author Posted June 4, 2017 A friend of mine who I went to uni with made a post on facebook about how she was at London Bridge station during the time of the attack. She said it was the most terrifying experience of her life. The staff evacuated everyone through a back entrance and then just told them to keep running. Eventually she managed to get on a bus miles away from the station. 7 confirmed dead + the 3 attackers. As many as 50 injured.
Grazza Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 It's just going to go on and on and on and on until we have internment and deportation.
Ramar Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 It's just going to go on and on and on and on until we have internment and deportation. How do you deport British citizens?
Grazza Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 How do you deport British citizens? Ask a Muslim country if they'll have them. If not, that's what the internment's for.
Fierce_LiNk Posted June 4, 2017 Author Posted June 4, 2017 The concerning thing to me is that there have been two reports today that information was passed on by friends and neighbours about these suspects to the police some time ago, yet they were still able to do this. So, my concern is what happens to that information once it does get passed on? Does it just get filed away somewhere? Had these two (out of the three assailants) been acted on, then maybe yesterday would've been prevented. Maybe hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Jimbob Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 I'm just in shock, this is yet another attack in the UK. And right on the eve of the charity concert in Manchester too, and also right after the Champions League in Cardiff.
Fierce_LiNk Posted June 4, 2017 Author Posted June 4, 2017 Ask a Muslim country if they'll have them. If not, that's what the internment's for. That first part is irresponsible. You're basically sending them away to kill somebody else in a different country, if that's what their intention is. It's morally wrong. Whether they're killing people in Libya or the UK, people are people. They should be imprisoned for it as it's still murder. The policy on what happens in these situations is lacklustre and needs sorting out. I don't know if the problem is underfunding of prisons, not enough intelligence, not enough police to act on intelligence or a combination of all of this, but it needs looking at.
Goafer Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 That first part is irresponsible. You're basically sending them away to kill somebody else in a different country, if that's what their intention is. It's morally wrong. Whether they're killing people in Libya or the UK, people are people. They should be imprisoned for it as it's still murder. I think I have a solution that would keep everybody happy...
Goafer Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 ....thats your answer to everything Damn right. Have you heard the Snake Plissken Theme? Plays in my head everywhere I go.
Goafer Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 On a slightly more serious note, this might be the most Goddamn inspiring things I have ever seen: Man drinking pint while fleeing terror becomes symbol of London spirit. Our country's ability to carry on as if nothing has happened is one of the few things I'm legitimately proud of and although the pint guy is a bit of silly news, it does show that perfectly.
killthenet Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 I wonder how many people have just added Grazza to their ignore list. Alarming ignorance in the face of such tragic events.
Fierce_LiNk Posted June 4, 2017 Author Posted June 4, 2017 I wonder how many people have just added Grazza to their ignore list. Alarming ignorance in the face of such tragic events. That's a bit harsh. He's entitled to his opinion and I've already heard dozens of others outside of this forum say a similar sort of thing. People want something done by those in power and I guess two of those solutions are to either lock them up or deport them (if possible). I'm not saying that these are the right solutions or the "answer", but they are options. I'm not agreeing with him, but we are able to have such conversations here because of the make-up of our society. That's part of what these attacks were about; attacking our freedom to speak our views, to live our lives the way we want to and to conduct ourselves in our own ways. To ignore somebody means you aren't willing to take part in a discussion with them, which goes against the point of a discussion board.
Pestneb Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) That's a bit harsh. He's entitled to his opinion and I've already heard dozens of others outside of this forum say a similar sort of thing. People want something done by those in power and I guess two of those solutions are to either lock them up or deport them (if possible). I'm not saying that these are the right solutions or the "answer", but they are options. I'm not agreeing with him, but we are able to have such conversations here because of the make-up of our society. That's part of what these attacks were about; attacking our freedom to speak our views, to live our lives the way we want to and to conduct ourselves in our own ways. To ignore somebody means you aren't willing to take part in a discussion with them, which goes against the point of a discussion board. looking at WW2 with japanese and jewish individuals, I think it's clear neither option is a good one. The main problem is who are "them". if it is too wide (as in the US with the japanese internment) you harm the innocent, if it is too narrow you fail to protect your citizens anyway. I know minority report is hardly mind blowing, but I think it touched on the difficulties of condemning an individual for a crime that is yet to be committed.... also I initially read the comment as a fear... that as more terrorist attacks took place it would drive society to the extreme of either deportation or internment.... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40155829 this is the main issue... funding of these organisations. If the funding is cut they lose their business model, where these attacks basically serve as adverts to remind their donors that they exist. Edited June 5, 2017 by Pestneb
Jonnas Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 Haven't had much opportunity to post here since it happened, but I do hope everyone Londoner here is safe. Regarding the potential prevention of such an attack... So far, the most credible reason I saw had to do with cuts to police budget (I believe a former police chief claimed it), and I can certainly imagine something that mundane having a strong influence in these things.
Ashley Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) It's weird seeing other people react to this. John Oliver sums up the American media side pretty well, but I was speaking to my mother earlier and she said "everyone must be feeling awful" (or something like that, I forget the wording) and I said "actually, nobody even mentioned it" and I don't think that's even "lets avoid a depressing topic" because let's face it, we talk about politics. There seems to be this perception that the natural response is to cower and worry and I've just not seen any of that. Sure, people will be frightened, particularly those that were most affected by it, but the city goes on and not in a 'disrespectful' way, more of a "you're not going to stop us" kind of thing. I dunno, maybe it's just being on holiday for the March one and not being a Londoner in 2005 has meant I've not really noticed this before. That being said, it is terrible to see how their intent to turn people in the West against Islam works at times like this. They're not fucking representative of the religion. It's Ramadan at the moment for Pete's sake, the most holy month. A month known for charitable deeds within the community (and shown by the community this weekend) and the attacks here and elsewhere show they don't give an actual fuck about the religion or its message. Edited June 5, 2017 by Ashley
Goafer Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 I got a message from an American friend asking if I was ok. I don't think he quite understands how far I am from London and Manchester... Still, it's the thought that counts eh?
sumo73 Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) ...and the attacks here and elsewhere show they don't give an actual fuck about the religion or its message. I don't want to say this but I have to disagree. The people who committed the recent terror attacks believed that their version (their perverted version) of Islam was true and just. If people who follow this believe they are in a holy war then they will be rewarded with 72 virgins if they die through martyrdom. The people who believe in this don't care if it's Ramadan (note the Battle of Badr happened during Ramadan) or not, their goal in part is to split us up and turn against each other. Cue Tommy Robinson... I spoke to a Muslim friend of mine yesterday who is fasting during Ramadan, before I left London and we spoke about what had happened at London Bridge. We were both very sad about what had happened but my friend was worried about his wife and any possible retaliations against him and his family just because they are Muslim. We must always separate radical Islam from non radical Islam and not confuse the two. At times like this we look towards political and community leaders for a sense of direction and leadership but they and ourselves must not be forced into making knee jerk reactions. I'm sure we will be told that we need to give up a few of our social liberties (not just the government reading into our whatsapp messages) in order to better secure the country whilst ignoring falling police numbers. If these measures are rushed in there will be problems in the future. Ask a Muslim country if they'll have them. If not, that's what the internment's for. As for any talk about internment this needs to be properly thought through although I'm not a fan of it. People have already mentioned about internment during WWII but a bit more recently in the early 70's the British used internment in Northern Ireland and wasn't the great success they thought it could be. Due to faulty intelligence the police arrested some of the wrong people and only made the divisions there worse. Also you don't always solve a problem just by moving it to a non problem area (ie. moving people to a Muslim country). If people are found guilty then the law must deal with them accordingly (including de-radicalisation). As already mentioned, you can't deport someone who was born here. this is the main issue... funding of these organisations. If the funding is cut they lose their business model, where these attacks basically serve as adverts to remind their donors that they exist. It's not just the funding (or backers) of these organisations, it's the weapons and the message they are spreading. Groups like Anonymous have shut down terrorist twitter feeds but really it shouldn't be up to them it should be up to governments and twitter themselves to look into things more. Going back to my friend, I said to him I understood in part why someone might get sucked into this. Although politicians virtue signal about how tolerant and multicultural the UK is supposed to be there are still divisions in the UK. There are people who have either lived in the UK for many years or were born here but don't feel that they are part of life here and there is a break down of social cohesion. Where there is division often there is resentment and people can get sucked into other things. I really don't think politicians are doing enough to represent everyone fully and to include us all regardless of who we are. Edited June 6, 2017 by sumo73
Grazza Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 As for any talk about internment this needs to be properly thought through although I'm not a fan of it. People have already mentioned about internment during WWII but a bit more recently in the early 70's the British used internment in Northern Ireland and wasn't the great success they thought it could be. Due to faulty intelligence the police arrested some of the wrong people and only made the divisions there worse. Also you don't always solve a problem just by moving it to a non problem area (ie. moving people to a Muslim country). If people are found guilty then the law must deal with them accordingly (including de-radicalisation). As already mentioned, you can't deport someone who was born here. Thanks for taking the time to make a considered reply. I agree there are problems with internment. Even so, I do believe some form of incarceration must play a part and (unfortunately) normal standards of criminality aren't enough for the problem we're facing. Locking up Germans, Italians and Japanese was deeply unfair, but it was a war tactic. In fact, it wasn't even as justified as the current situation, because there was no real reason to believe a German living in Britain sided with the Nazis. Here, though, we do have clear signs of loyalty to the enemy. I suppose this comes down to whether we (as a society) believe we are at war with radical Islam or not. If flying an Islamic flag is not treason, for example, what is? And if it is not a criminal offence, surely it clearly marks the perpetrators out as traitors? We have had so many clues about who the enemy is, and our justice system has not been able to do anything about it. I also do understand that Muslims have been the victims of Islamic terrorism more than anyone. It would indeed be irresponsible to send genuinely dangerous people abroad. Unfortunately, British-born terrorists are said to be amongst the worst. We have been too scared to clamp down on extremism because we don't honestly know the clear line between Islam and extremist Islam. For clarity, the plan could be along these lines: * The 3,000 considered most dangerous could be locked up in some fashion. Humane conditions - this is about gaining control, not punishment. * The 20,000 considered "of interest" could be monitored with a combination of tags and control orders. Remember, many terrorists (although known to authorities) were not classified as amongst the most dangerous when they carried out their attacks (and were thus not being watched). * Those who call for Sharia Law should be sent a clear message that it's never going to happen in the UK. These people (assuming they're not dangerous) could be offered repatriation, possibly with some sort of financial incentive. This is a cultural issue, rather than criminal, but we do need to draw the line between those who want to change Britain and those who don't. * To those peaceful Muslims who just want to follow your chosen religion, you're very welcome, and the UK will be a better place when the distinction has been clearly set out between yourselves and extremists. These are quite strong measures, but I don't think anything I've outlined above is as offensive as the idea that we do nothing, and just accept some of us will be slaughtered every now and then.
Clownferret Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 I worked in Southwark for many years and commuted to London Bridge and walked through Borough Market every day. Spent many lunchtimes and evenings in both the Barrowboy and the Globe It's weird but it feels a lot more personal because I know the area so well. Surely the time has come for an absolute zero tolerance for theses maniacs. Every single time this happens, they are known to the police. I couldn't give two shits if some "innocent" people are locked up, if you have any kind of link to any of these organisations then you should be detained indefinitely. America had it right and they were criticized.
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