Shirtstorm

[Beast]

Apparently his girlfriend gave the shirt to him and told him to wear it.

 

That's what I heard anyway.

 

It was a girl friend (female friend, rather) who made the shirt especially for him because she makes shirts for a living. I heard he wore it when announcing the mission was a success as a symbol to their friendship because she especially made it for him.

 

If that is true then people have turned something that was meant to be nice and beautiful (even if the shirt isn't) and turned it into something sordid and dirty.

 

-_-

[Agent Gibbs]

Apparently his girlfriend gave the shirt to him and told him to wear it.

 

That's what I heard anyway.

 

It was a girl friend (female friend, rather) who made the shirt especially for him because she makes shirts for a living. I heard he wore it when announcing the mission was a success as a symbol to their friendship because she especially made it for him.

 

If that is true then people have turned something that was meant to be nice and beautiful (even if the shirt isn't) and turned it into something sordid and dirty.

 

-_-

 

Yeah that right, his female friend made it for him, she is a designer and as such he wore the shirt to during this historic event as a thank you to her and give her publicity......but boy did that backfire

 

but the thing is i've not seen any criticism directed at her, its all been at him, saying he is sexist for wearing that

 

I think the whole issue of how somebody dresses or rather not dresses is very very confused within the wider "modern" feminist movement - a woman can wear what she wants, when she wants and should not have any fear that people (read as men) view her clothing as sexualising her, and others should see how she dresses as empowering

 

but when it comes to men, somehow this doesn't apply.......

I've seen this discussion played out at nausieum over the internet, with some startling declarations and generalisations, the worst being that when people have asked what a feminist would think if it were a female scientist who wore that shirt, they all agreed that it would be more about empowering her and not sexist....

So it seems the key problem here is that it was a man that wore it....surely that is sexism?

 

Generally i have began to hate modern feminism, its become bastardised from its original aims by sufragettes and feminists in by gone days, who aimed for the opportunities to be on equal footing with men, to an aim now that seems to be to remove men from power, destroy the patriarchy and flip the perceived power balance so women are on top, basically its no longer about equality for some, but more like revenge and reversing roles to give men a taste of their medicine

 

I could go into more general things of causes feminists have fought on womens behalf that basically aim to get preferential treatment for women, or how women already have preferential treatment over men in some circles of society but they don't campaign for equality there - but this is about shirtstorm, which itself shows of some startling double standards going on, and is blowing a none issue up into something that is eclipsing the achievements made

 

don't get me wrong, not all feminists are like this, it seems a vocal minority are like this and get the most publicity because of they way they campaign for publicity - its a real tragedy, because this type of thing actually breeds sexism! We need as a race to strive for equality but also to recognise our differences as sexes and embrace them, to aid one another to progress as one, not become divided as we fight over non issues

Edited November 19, 2014 by Agent Gibbs

[MoogleViper]

It was a girl friend (female friend, rather) who made the shirt especially for him because she makes shirts for a living. I heard he wore it when announcing the mission was a success as a symbol to their friendship because she especially made it for him.

 

If that is true then people have turned something that was meant to be nice and beautiful (even if the shirt isn't) and turned it into something sordid and dirty.

 

Frankly if she considers herself a designer and makes shirts for a living, and then she made that shirt, then she deserves all the hate she gets.

[Rummy]

I'm going to defend this shirt, because as terrible as it is for some I fucking love it would totally wear it. Plus as Gibb's mentioned it was apparently made by a female friend and stuff, so that takes a bit of the weight out of the big criticism for me.

 

HOWEVER. Would I wear the shirt to work? Very likely no except in some strange exceptional circumstance. So there's that, I guess.

[drahkon]

Just found this on 9gag

 

 

(ignore the typo :p)

[Cube]

That meme is so old that I've seen it on Facebook.

 

Anyway, as hideous as the shirt it, it isn't really a problem but he should have put some thought into it before wearing it for a big event.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Cube

[flameboy]

For those that have been living under a rock, last week the European Space Agency landed a probe on an asteroid travelling at 83,000mph, 300 million miles away. Pretty fucking radical you may say to yourself. What could possibly top that?

 

One of the scientists' shirt apparently.

 

 

In case it's not clear enough in the photo, it features 80's style pinup women all over it. Apparently that's bigger news to some people than the fact that this man assisted in landing a metal box on a fucking asteroid. A. FUCKING. ASTEROID.

 

Sure the shirt is hideous, but it's hardly offensive. They're not naked, hell they're not even that scantily clad. Women (quite rightly) are always saying they should be able to wear what they want in public without being belittled, but when a shirt featuring the very clothes they want to wear is worn by a man, all hell breaks loose. This video sums it up best:

 

 

A good article too

 

Silly little "outrages" like these detract from the real issues such as pay differences etc, much like the boy who cried wolf. Every time a "feminist" protests against something like this, it damages the real feminists' credibility when they protest something worth protesting.

 

What really boils my piss is that he gave a tearful apology for it. His monumental achievement, that the rest of us can only dream of achieving anything remotely close, is forever soured by the cretinous peasants that are somehow offended by a shirt. He has achieved something beyond comprehension, yet has been reduced to tears on TV for his choice of shirt. Fucking sickening.

 

I've actually decided that this man is my hero. His unconventional style shows that people who dress differently and cover themselves in tattoos can be just as intelligent (more so in this case) and "normal" as everyone else. But where are the people pointing that out?

 

I saw you had posted about this on facebook...it is ridiculous. As you've said to the casual observer there is nothing wrong with what he is wearing or his appearance in general.

 

It's even dumber that a female friend made it for him as @Animal said. I'm not saying because she's a female she represents the entire gender, just like I suppose not everyone who wears short skirts is looking for sex? I mean people could be dressing like that as it makes them feel good or whatever.

 

This is a very touchy subject the whole gamergate thing has showed a tide and switch in how this stuff is being viewed and covered. However the gamergate stuff is clearly a vocal minority, I wonder how most women feel? Is it offensive?

[Ashley]

Because then where are their complaints and overreaction to it? The guy wears a shirt with women on it and the complaints are through the roof.

 

This is a specific event whereas A&F is ongoing so less buzz. There are certainly calls for them to consider their representation of bodies though: https://www.change.org/p/abercrombie-fitch-ceo-mike-jeffries-stop-telling-teens-they-aren-t-beautiful-make-clothes-for-teens-of-all-sizes

[Jonnas]

Huh, good title. Real tired of "-gates".

 

And honestly, it's petty. This man has done nothing wrong. Complaining about the shirt is as small-minded as saying "he missed a bit whilst shaving" or "there was a biscuit crumb on the floor".

f

 

If the ESA is genuinely a hard place for women to work in, by all means address that, but focusing on something as small as a shirt just belittles genuine efforts for equality.

 

These comments sum up how I feel: pointless, trivial thing to attack.

 

Was his shirt sexist? Probably. Maybe it wasn't intended to be so, but it does require a certain context to fully understand. After all, even things like #smashnicelookingbirds are kind of sexist without context.

 

Should he have dressed better for this occasion? Absolutely. I mean, come on, teachers, lawyers and others are expected to dress properly for their respective audiences, surely speaking before millions across the globe about a milestone achievement requires better than a novelty shirt.

 

Does that justify all of the harassment he's been getting? No. Fair criticism is one thing, but he's clearly been affected by generic sexism accusations. And over Twitter, harassment is more common than criticism.

[Yvonne]

Said I wasn't going to pop back in, but I found a pretty good article on the matter, and general matters of this kind, that I think is worth sharing:

 

http://www.popehat.com/2014/11/17/shirts-and-shirtiness/

which I found from here:

http://amptoons.com/blog/2014/11/19/ken-white-on-internet-not-really-lynch-not-really-mobs/

[Zechs Merquise]

This is a specific event whereas A&F is ongoing so less buzz. There are certainly calls for them to consider their representation of bodies though: https://www.change.org/p/abercrombie-fitch-ceo-mike-jeffries-stop-telling-teens-they-aren-t-beautiful-make-clothes-for-teens-of-all-sizes

 

I think this is utter nonsense.

 

A&F are a private company, not a public utility. They should be able to make clothes at whatever size they wish. If people can't fit into them, A&F will lose those sales and those people will have to shop elsewhere. I think petitions like that are totally pointless and the people signing them are behaving like entitled babies.

 

What's more, the normalisation of obesity is a bad thing.

 

If you need XXL or XXXL clothing, that isn't healthy and it certainly shouldn't be seen as normal or acceptable.

 

As for the main issue here, his (horrible) shirt, I think it's all been blown out of proportion.

 

I personally think the shirt was designed horribly, and was pretty ugly. I don't think it was sexist. I don't think it would 'harass' females. I think it's a case of people being offended and kicking up a shit storm because they like to be offended and like to make a fuss.

 

However, considering the event he was discussing and that he was representing the scientific community, I do not believe he dressed appropriately - in other words, it's not really a work shirt.

 

Saying that though, these crazy feminists can't have it both ways. You can't walk around shouting about how you want the right to dress like a 'slut' without any recourse, comments or an even a second glance, but then attack a guy for wearing a silly shirt. It's just pathetic double standards.

[Beast]

I think this is utter nonsense.

 

A&F are a private company, not a public utility. They should be able to make clothes at whatever size they wish. If people can't fit into them, A&F will lose those sales and those people will have to shop elsewhere. I think petitions like that are totally pointless and the people signing them are behaving like entitled babies.

 

What's more, the normalisation of obesity is a bad thing.

 

If you need XXL or XXXL clothing, that isn't healthy and it certainly shouldn't be seen as normal or acceptable.

 

Personally, I couldn't give a flying fook about A&C as I just shop at Georges at Asda anyway but I do disagree with the last part of the quote that you said. I don't think it's normalising anything.

 

Not that I'm saying that they have a right to make sizes to cater to everybody but it would be nice. The thing that you have to consider are not the people who won't do anything about their weight and will stuff chips in their face for the rest of their lives but the people who try their hardest trying to lose weight and they're going down sizes.

 

Speaking from experience, that feeling when you first go into a shop that slim people go into and you're able to put on clothes from there is just amazing. I think having larger sizes available up to, at least, XXL would encourage weight loss because their confidence would shoot right up. Besides, I'm still an XXL in some shirts but there's a bit of a difference since January.

[Yvonne]

lol this thread turned into fat shaming? ok

[Beast]

Just found this on 9gag

 

 

(ignore the typo :p)

 

Forgot to quote this.

 

As funny as this is, there's a truth to it. It just seems that everything true feminists have been fighting for when it comes to wearing what you want without slut-shaming or whatever has sort of been thrown out the window in some respects because of the double-standards of 'feminists', which is a shame.

 

'Feminists' like them are the reason why people don't like the idea of feminism today, because they're confusing feminism with whatever the fuck these women are who call themselves feminists but are just actually man-hating twats.

[Jonnas]

Also, maybe we should start to use the term "Misandry" and "Misandrists" to refer to the "Man-Haters". The same way we talk "Misogyny" and "Misogynists". Just a thought.

[Agent Gibbs]

Forgot to quote this.

 

As funny as this is, there's a truth to it. It just seems that everything true feminists have been fighting for when it comes to wearing what you want without slut-shaming or whatever has sort of been thrown out the window in some respects because of the double-standards of 'feminists', which is a shame.

 

'Feminists' like them are the reason why people don't like the idea of feminism today, because they're confusing feminism with whatever the fuck these women are who call themselves feminists but are just actually man-hating twats.

 

Yeah its a reason why i won't say i'm a feminist, i believe in equality and actively strive for it like a true feminist, but modern feminism is being confused and until the wider feminist community deal with it, it will continue to damage feminism as movement

 

The articles Yvonne posted are really good articles but they did highlight to me another double standard thats coming out of all this (@Animal and zechs also touched on this) ......

 

You can't slut shame its wrong,

You can't fat shame its wrong,

but it was perfectly fine to shame the scientist involved forcing a public apology (either by his company or his own shame from the "issue" pushing him to)

 

It can't work both ways? you can't denounce public shaming of one thing then in another breath publicly call for it, how this type of feminist can not see this double standard and how it damages the movements for equality is beyond me

 

did anyone catch the controversy over Lena Dunham recently? that was a very odd situation but again showed a potential double standard, some defended the (at minimum) creepy activities with her sister (masturbating in bed with an 11 year old sleeping next to them, whilst age 17..) saying it was normal childhood exploration, yet people drew comparisons with non celebrities, both male and female that were considered sex offenders for lesser actions

Although that situation is rather unique in that she is from a rich extremely liberal no boundary household so her perception of the events are not the same as others

 

double standards are everywhere though its basically human to be prejudicial against something, even the most uber liberal ethos is prejudiced against opposing views

Edited November 20, 2014 by Agent Gibbs

[Grazza]

Also, maybe we should start to use the term "Misandry" and "Misandrists" to refer to the "Man-Haters". The same way we talk "Misogyny" and "Misogynists". Just a thought.

 

Many of us do. There's a huge amount of sexism and sexual discrimination against men.

 

Here's a rather appalling article covering Shirtstorm and other recent controversies:

 

But if his apology had really come across as sincere, they might have truly forgiven him. Take the Rosetta scientist Matt Taylor who sparked #shirtstorm by wearing a ‘sexist’ shirt live on TV. When he subsequently apologised, he was close to tears. It was obvious he’d worn the shirt without thinking and now not only deeply regretted it, but understood why there’d been such a backlash.

 

The internet forgave him.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11240270/Julien-Blanc-apologises-Im-tired-of-sexist-men.html

 

How obnoxious.

 

Now for the record I do not defend the other cases she refers to. One of them supposedly encouraged the abuse and mistreatment of women, which is obviously totally and utterly wrong, but to compare that to a man who wore a shirt depicting scantily-clad women is ridiculous at best.

 

At worst it suggests feminists seek the total domination, control and subjugation of men. "Don't do anything without our approval... and if you do, there'd better be tears!"

[Ashley]

Trying to compare the feminist movement to be able to wear what they want with this one guy's experience is problematic. I understand the attempt, but the context of these two things are wildly different. This guy (and males as a whole) are less likely to be raped and having the blame put on their choice of clothing. That ultimately is what the feminist fight is about, about breaking that bad escape-goat excuse. As far as I'm aware it's less "let me wear what I want, even if it offends" than it is "what I'm wearing doesn't give you a right to violate me".

 

I think a quote I found recently that is slightly related puts it a more direct way:

 

"Most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear rape and death".

 

The societal experiences of men and women are so vastly different you can't just say it's hypocritical for women that demand the right to wear what they want but then complain about a man's choice of clothing (that some believe would cause the problem that results in women having to demand the right to wear what they want). It's not that black and white.

 

If anything I think the best we can take away from this is that guy probably wasn't looking to offend or demean, but hopefully it makes it clearer how normalised these attitudes towards women have become and how we must question them.

[MoogleViper]

escape-goat excuse

 

[Ashley]

I was at work. Leave me alone.

[MoogleViper]

[flameboy]

 

Now that combination would truly have broken the internet!

[Goafer]

One of the points from this article keeps coming back to me:

 

I think his critics should go to the National Gallery and look at the Rokeby Venus by Velázquez. Or look at the stuff by Rubens. Are we saying that these glorious images should be torn from the walls?

 

And it's a good point. What if they guy had been wearing a shirt with Venus de Milos all over it? Still the female form used for the sake of art. Would that have been an outrage?

 

 

And since it was mentioned about whether or not it was appropriate for work, I'll weigh in on that too.

 

The way I see it, you need to ask several questions before introducing a dress code.

 

1. Is it a safety requirement? (high vis etc)

2. Do you need to identify your employees from other people? (Shop staff etc)

3. Do you want to give off a certain image?

 

Looking at Matt Taylor's situation:

 

1. No.

 

2. No.

 

3. This is where things get tricky. I personally believe that as soon as you introduce a dress code, you limit a persons creativity, mainly because a dress code tells your employess that they have guidelines they need to abide by. If the employer expects you to dress a certain way, they also expect you to act a certain way. It implies that you must do everything "by the book". The uniform could be Hawaiian shirts, it still gives employees the impression that they have to act a certain way.

 

That's fine for some jobs such as customer service, lawyers etc, where the customers expect a consistent service, where every client is processed according to guidelines.

 

Science however, is a creative career. No one ever furthered science by following the status quo. Scientists need to be creative in order to discover new things, find solutions to problems etc. Clearly the ESA agrees with this idea, since they allow him to wear such things to work. NASA agree too apparently.

 

As for "dressing up" for a TV appearance, it's been said that it was a gift from a friend, which he wore for her. He probably thinks it's as tacky as we do. After such a monumental achievement, I think he's entitled to a bit of a giggle.

 

I also find it hard to believe that no one in the office questioned his choice of clothes for a TV interview. Maybe they thought his novelty shirt would give their department a more modern, friendlier image, rather than a bunch of stuffy nerds in lab coats. Maybe they allowed him to wear it in order to appear more inclusive and not the domain of "geeks"? These seem to be the questions that weren't asked before escalating immediately to internet femi-rage™.

 

 

 

I think the main problem here is people have immediately assumed the worst in him. No one seems to have sat back, took a breather and questioned why he is wearing it. They've instantly assigned their own understanding of it (he and his whole department must be sexist) and ran with it. Maybe I'm wrong and he is indeed sexist, but at least I'm exploring the alternatives first.

[Grazza]

And it's a good point. What if they guy had been wearing a shirt with Venus de Milos all over it? Still the female form used for the sake of art. Would that have been an outrage?

 

I don't know, but it would have been perfectly acceptable, like the one he actually wore.

 

You simply cannot be in favour of equality and then say it's OK for women to do something, but not men. Regardless of how society is, equality means equality. We don't have it, but we should.

 

topless male = topless female

male nipple = female nipple

nude male = nude female

 

Etc, etc...

 

This is why I mentioned Puritanism. I'm deeply, deeply suspicious about why feminists campaign against anything to do with glamour or nudity. Do they hate women giving men what they want? Even cartoon women?

 

Images such as on this man's shirt simply cannot be sexist - they are merely depictions of humans. Female, yes, but as I say, gender shouldn't matter. Nowadays Marvel Comics can't draw Spider-Woman without campaigns against it. Computer game designers can't create female characters without complaints of "sexualisation" (as if that's a bad thing) and "objectification".

 

Make no mistake, feminists are attacking this subject as a whole and it's something we really, seriously shouldn't let them get away with. Do we want a world where you can't draw or wear what you like? If we don't stand up to them, that's where we're going.

[Beast]

I don't know, but it would have been perfectly acceptable, like the one he actually wore.

 

You simply cannot be in favour of equality and then say it's OK for women to do something, but not men. Regardless of how society is, equality means equality. We don't have it, but we should.

 

topless male = topless female

male nipple = female nipple

nude male = nude female

 

Etc, etc...

 

This is why I mentioned Puritanism. I'm deeply, deeply suspicious about why feminists campaign against anything to do with glamour or nudity. Do they hate women giving men what they want? Even cartoon women?

 

Images such as on this man's shirt simply cannot be sexist - they are merely depictions of humans. Female, yes, but as I say, gender shouldn't matter. Nowadays Marvel Comics can't draw Spider-Woman without campaigns against it. Computer game designers can't create female characters without complaints of "sexualisation" (as if that's a bad thing) and "objectification".

 

Make no mistake, feminists are attacking this subject as a whole and it's something we really, seriously shouldn't let them get away with. Do we want a world where you can't draw or wear what you like? If we don't stand up to them, that's where we're going.

 

Personally, I think some of the women who have a problem with it are jealous because they don't look like that. There, I said it.

 

It's like the whole Page 3 argument. People have argued how it's disgusting and how degrading it is on women but I don't think that. A woman has a right to do whatever she likes with/to her body just as much as a man has that same right. Same goes for anything. Like what you like, hate what you hate, think what you want to think and wear what you want to wear.

 

Dumb moment: Is there a word you can use to say you're all for equality? Like feminist is used for women to have the same rights as men and stuff? I'm one of them.