S.C.G Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I dread to think what it'll be like in 6 months. I can picture it now... *Goes into Game and walks up to the counter, whispering to the shop assistant* 'Psst! Hey... you got some of the "good stuff" you know, the ones that come in a shade of "light blue" and goes by the name of...' *looks around the store shiftily before whispering even more quietly* '...Wii U!?!' *twitches nervously* :p
liger05 Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 People for some reason like to hate on digital foundry but this is very interesting in relation to wii u and third parties. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-secret-developers-wii-u-the-inside-story
lostmario Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 How can someone spend 5 minutes looking at the Wii U catalogue of games? All the games were stacked on the shelves so tightly he was taking each game out to find out the price. People for some reason like to hate on digital foundry but this is very interesting in relation to wii u and third parties. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-secret-developers-wii-u-the-inside-story Just read this, very interesting article. Just more confirmation of the many mistakes Nintendo made with the Wii U.
Serebii Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 People for some reason like to hate on digital foundry but this is very interesting in relation to wii u and third parties. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-secret-developers-wii-u-the-inside-story Reading that, I really do get the impression that the issues they have with their online stems from the frayed relationship between Nintendo and EA. We know that there was a huge relationship between the two building since 2011. Before the relationship collapsed, there were reports that EA were helping with the online. The relationship collapsed so the online seems to be Nintendo rushing to try and get it sorted. This is furthered by the reports that EA wanted Nintendo to full embrace Origin as their entire online.
Dcubed Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) People for some reason like to hate on digital foundry but this is very interesting in relation to wii u and third parties. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-secret-developers-wii-u-the-inside-story Good read. Goes a long way towards highlighting how much of a nightmare console launches can be. That being said, before people jump to conclusions, this sort of nightmare is actually a-typical of most console launches and (not that it excuses Nintendo for doing this), but a lack of English language support before launch is also a-typical of console launches from both Nintendo AND Sony (I remember another article, I think it was actually from Eurogamer as well actually, where some devs go over the PS2's launch and how there was no English language documentation given AT ALL along with the original PS2 SDK). The online features being unavailable before launch is also not unexpected, the big day 1 update was there for a reason! (And day 1 updates that bring along basic features for consumers and developers is standard fare with all consoles now, ever since the 360). That part about the staff being unfamiliar with how PSN or XBL works is pretty hideous though! No excuses there! Reading that, I really do get the impression that the issues they have with their online stems from the frayed relationship between Nintendo and EA. We know that there was a huge relationship between the two building since 2011. Before the relationship collapsed, there were reports that EA were helping with the online. The relationship collapsed so the online seems to be Nintendo rushing to try and get it sorted. This is furthered by the reports that EA wanted Nintendo to full embrace Origin as their entire online. This could also have played a role in this fiasco as well I suppose... Edit: Just took another look at the Eurogamer article about Need for Speed Most Wanted U's development and it's surprising how much different a tone Criterion's staff took with development; obviously due to the fact that their development cycle had the luxury of being able to work with completed dev kits and post-launch dev tools/documentation. Take a look at this quote for instance... "The difference with Wii U was that when we first started out, getting the graphics and GPU to run at an acceptable frame-rate was a real struggle. The hardware was always there, it was always capable. Nintendo gave us a lot of support - support which helps people who are doing cross-platform development actually get the GPU running to the kind of rate we've got it at now. We benefited by not quite being there for launch - we got a lot of that support that wasn't there at day one... the tools, everything." "There's a switch in our build pipeline that says 'use PC textures' and we flipped that and that was all," Hamadi laughs. "I can take no credit for that, it was literally ten minutes' work... we are using PS3/360 geometry. It's just the textures we upgraded." "So, I think you've got one group of people who walked away, you've got some other people who just dived in and tried and thought, 'Ah... it's not kind of there,' but not many people have done what we've done, which is to sit down and look at where it's weaker and why, but also see where it's stronger and leverage that. It's a different kind of chip and it's not fair to look at its clock-speed and other consoles' clock-speed and compare them as numbers that are relevant. It's not a relevant comparison to make when you have processors that are so divergent. It's apples and oranges." It's possible. It's work. You have to think about it and put time and craft and effort and whatever else into it but you have to do that for everything that's worth doing in this business... I think people should either go all-in or not bother." Launch is always a fun time for development and makes for some crazy tales but it's never really representative of typical console game development :p Edited January 11, 2014 by Dcubed
Hero-of-Time Posted January 11, 2014 Author Posted January 11, 2014 Cracking article that once again highlights just how far off the mark Nintendo are when it comes to getting 3rd parties on board. The comment about the PSN and Xbox Live is shocking and comes off as arrogant. Surely if you are entering the online world in a big way with your next console you want to check out what the competition is doing? It explains why things like chat and message notifications are missing. Nintendo probably didn't even know such things existed!
Ashley Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 Nintendo has been pressed about online since the turn of the millennium. They've dabbled in it but it's clear they never really bothered and that shows with the Wii U. Fine they don't have the experience of running an online service like Live or PSN, but they should have been investing in getting it ready. By the sounds of it, it's been thrown together in the last few years and they relied on EA to do it anyway.
Jimbob Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 In Cardiff, the Nintendo section (3DS and Wii/WiiU) is at the front of the store along with the PS4/Xbox One sections. Still have a good selection of games in the area for both. And they have demo units for both in-store as well. Both are operational, unlike the Xbox One.
Hero-of-Time Posted January 11, 2014 Author Posted January 11, 2014 The section for Wii U is pretty small and just on an inner shelf at both GAME stores in the Metro Centre. Mark, from the 8-4 podcast, was just on about this very issue on the latest episode. He went home to the US ( he lives and works in Japan ) for Christmas and popped into a Gamestop while over there. He said the Wii U section was just shoved at the back of the store in a tiny section.
liger05 Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I think it's crazy that Nintendo ignore live and psn. Surely you have to know what the competition is doing? The whole power draw needing to be low to keep the console quiet is ridiculous. Obviously the article is just the thoughts of one person and may not be replicated elsewhere but still it's a very good insight.
khilafah Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 No wonder the multi-platform titles run worse on Wii U. Development sounds like real hassle. Nintendo must speak to developers before the design new hardware.
Happenstance Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I just don't see why this focus on Nintendo exists for you - you liked them in the past. But that's like me craving for a developer like cave dog to make an awesome game for me to play : / I want fun games, tbh I don't look at the publisher/developer when deciding what game to buy... Good for you I however like to see a bit deeper into the industry, I find it interesting. There isnt a focus on Nintendo, I talk about all the companies in various places, this just happens to be a Nintendo forum and the Wii U thread.
Goron_3 Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 Cracking article that once again highlights just how far off the mark Nintendo are when it comes to getting 3rd parties on board. The comment about the PSN and Xbox Live is shocking and comes off as arrogant. Surely if you are entering the online world in a big way with your next console you want to check out what the competition is doing? It explains why things like chat and message notifications are missing. Nintendo probably didn't even know such things existed! Sounds similar to that Gamecube article you posted a few days ago, no? What surprises me more is that it's Nintendo's team internally that make the console and then they show it to 3rd parties. They really are just hoping that whatever they make is actually wanted by those in the West. Compare that to Sony who with the PS3 made a lot of mistakes and so made sure that the PS4 was based around what developers wanted. Sony did the same with the original Playstation too; it was incredibly easy to code for compared to the Saturn because 3rd parties worked with them a lot before the console even launched.
Guy Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 Nintendo's online service is superb in a few niche areas, but ridiculously archaic in most of the important ones. We forgive them because... hey, it's Nintendo, but we really shouldn't. All of us have an ideal Nintendo in our minds and I'm sure the current online infrastructure for Wii U/3DS is falling way short of even the most blinded fan's expectations. I think Pokémon and Animal Crossing have had surprisingly decent online systems. Not perfect, but hey... they are Nintendo games, right? I think it's worth waiting to see how Smash and Mario Kart perform online before dooming them this generation, they certainly have the means to get it right. What concerns me is what Nintendo consider to be getting it right and wrong.
Serebii Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) Nintendo's online service is superb in a few niche areas, but ridiculously archaic in most of the important ones. We forgive them because... hey, it's Nintendo, but we really shouldn't. All of us have an ideal Nintendo in our minds and I'm sure the current online infrastructure for Wii U/3DS is falling way short of even the most blinded fan's expectations. I think Pokémon and Animal Crossing have had surprisingly decent online systems. Not perfect, but hey... they are Nintendo games, right? I think it's worth waiting to see how Smash and Mario Kart perform online before dooming them this generation, they certainly have the means to get it right. What concerns me is what Nintendo consider to be getting it right and wrong. I truly believe that the Wii U's flailings will have given Nintendo and Iwata a swift slap to the face and they'll get it right next time. And even though they'll get things right next gen, third parties still won't bother. Sounds similar to that Gamecube article you posted a few days ago, no? What surprises me more is that it's Nintendo's team internally that make the console and then they show it to 3rd parties. They really are just hoping that whatever they make is actually wanted by those in the West. Compare that to Sony who with the PS3 made a lot of mistakes and so made sure that the PS4 was based around what developers wanted. Sony did the same with the original Playstation too; it was incredibly easy to code for compared to the Saturn because 3rd parties worked with them a lot before the console even launched. Problem with that is that third parties are wanting a lot more power than Nintendo can provide. If Nintendo went toe-for-toe, power wise, with the PS4, and go cheaper, they'd be losing so much money. It'd put Nintendo in a far worse position that they are in. Sony and Microsoft go through a strategy where they go lossleading at first to build up the userbase and then, hopefully, gain profit in the later years of the console. Luckily they won't be losing as much money this time due to using off the shelf parts, but they are still losing a considerable amount. As Sony and Microsoft are huge companies with other parts to the company, they can absorb the loss for a short time so that it doesn't kill them. Nintendo, on the other hand, has no other avenues. If they were to follow this route, it would kill them. They would lose their warchest very fast and have to start selling off assets just to stay afloat, all before the console suddenly turns to profitability. I know people say that the Wii U is at a loss, as was the 3DS, and it shows...that's why they are at Operating Loss and have been since the mega 3DS price cut. Thankfully, this fiscal year, the yen and overseas ventures has helped them turn a profit overall, but they are still losing a lot of money with their consoles, and going the power route that third parties want would do irreparable damage to the company. Edited January 11, 2014 by Serebii Automerged Doublepost
Andyliini Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 And even though they'll get things right next gen, third parties still won't bother. This, a hundred times. Proven fact, that will happen anyway.
Aneres11 Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I think Pokémon and Animal Crossing have had surprisingly decent online systems. How dare you bring positivity into this thread. In seriousness, I totally agree. I was really impressed with both the games you mentioned. They're the games that really needed to get online right, and for the most part, they did. It will be interesting to see how Smash Bros works. For all of the flack that Wii Sports Club got, I spent ages playing the online on that. It wasn't great in some areas, but for actually getting online and playing someone at tennis, it worked. There was some slow down on the odd match but I had great fun with it.
Guy Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 And even though they'll get things right next gen, third parties still won't bother. They'll get things to a PS3/Xbox 360 level by the time we're on the PS5 and Xbox OneTwo or whatever it'll be called. What's concerning is I'd actually be happy with that from Nintendo.
liger05 Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 Nothing will change going forward until there is a culture change at Nintendo. I'm not convinced the current execs are prepared to implement such change
Serebii Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 They'll get things to a PS3/Xbox 360 level by the time we're on the PS5 and Xbox OneTwo or whatever it'll be called. What's concerning is I'd actually be happy with that from Nintendo. Thing is, Xbox One's online is below that level at the moment... Nothing will change going forward until there is a culture change at Nintendo. I'm not convinced the current execs are prepared to implement such change You do realise that they essentially cleared house and had major reshuffling of the executives in the middle of last year, right?
Goron_3 Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I truly believe that the Wii U's flailings will have given Nintendo and Iwata a swift slap to the face and they'll get it right next time. And even though they'll get things right next gen, third parties still won't bother. Problem with that is that third parties are wanting a lot more power than Nintendo can provide. If Nintendo went toe-for-toe, power wise, with the PS4, and go cheaper, they'd be losing so much money. It'd put Nintendo in a far worse position that they are in. Sony and Microsoft go through a strategy where they go lossleading at first to build up the userbase and then, hopefully, gain profit in the later years of the console. Luckily they won't be losing as much money this time due to using off the shelf parts, but they are still losing a considerable amount. As Sony and Microsoft are huge companies with other parts to the company, they can absorb the loss for a short time so that it doesn't kill them. Nintendo, on the other hand, has no other avenues. If they were to follow this route, it would kill them. They would lose their warchest very fast and have to start selling off assets just to stay afloat, all before the console suddenly turns to profitability. I know people say that the Wii U is at a loss, as was the 3DS, and it shows...that's why they are at Operating Loss and have been since the mega 3DS price cut. Thankfully, this fiscal year, the yen and overseas ventures has helped them turn a profit overall, but they are still losing a lot of money with their consoles, and going the power route that third parties want would do irreparable damage to the company. The Wii U launched at a very high price, not much less than the PS4. If they substituted the gamepad costs for higher specs, you would be left with a very powerful system for a great price. The N64 and Gamecube competed toe to toe and were massively powerful. They had a great strategy with the N64 and GC too; they made a small loss on each system (around $14 per Gamecube when it launched) but they then rake it in via software. It's the razor blade model; you launch first party software for your console and rake in the $$$. Despite all the mistakes they made with GC and it's low LTD sale, it made a hefty profit. The power route wouldn't do irreparable damage to the company. The N64 and Gamecube went down those routes and did not fail because they were powerful; they failed for many other reasons. The N64 literally had no software and even the software it did have was very expensive. The lack of CD's gave it no 3rd party support and so the big games moved to Sony...that had nothing to do with power. It would have been immensely successful worldwide had they not made the CD mistake. The Gamecube too was already screwed before it even launched, and the article H-o-T posted in the gaming thread sums up its problems. The 'Nintendo can't compete with MS and Sony' is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard and Iwata needs to be held responsible for that awful philosophy. And before people come in and say 'Oh but they need a gimmick to succeed...a unique selling point!'. Well Nintendo have that..and it's called software. They have the most historic and best exclusives of any gaming company, that's all they need. It's worth remembering just why Sony, a Japanese company, conquered the western gaming world. They listened to 3rd parties, the gaming audience and then built up exclusives. Nintendo already have the latter, they just need to act on the first two points.
Serebii Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) The Wii U launched at a very high price, not much less than the PS4. If they substituted the gamepad costs for higher specs, you would be left with a very powerful system for a great price. The N64 and Gamecube competed toe to toe and were massively powerful. They had a great strategy with the N64 and GC too; they made a small loss on each system (around $14 per Gamecube when it launched) but they then rake it in via software. It's the razor blade model; you launch first party software for your console and rake in the $$$. Despite all the mistakes they made with GC and it's low LTD sale, it made a hefty profit. The power route wouldn't do irreparable damage to the company. The N64 and Gamecube went down those routes and did not fail because they were powerful; they failed for many other reasons. The N64 literally had no software and even the software it did have was very expensive. The lack of CD's gave it no 3rd party support and so the big games moved to Sony...that had nothing to do with power. It would have been immensely successful worldwide had they not made the CD mistake. The Gamecube too was already screwed before it even launched, and the article H-o-T posted in the gaming thread sums up its problems. The 'Nintendo can't compete with MS and Sony' is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard and Iwata needs to be held responsible for that awful philosophy. And before people come in and say 'Oh but they need a gimmick to succeed...a unique selling point!'. Well Nintendo have that..and it's called software. They have the most historic and best exclusives of any gaming company, that's all they need. It's worth remembering just why Sony, a Japanese company, conquered the western gaming world. They listened to 3rd parties, the gaming audience and then built up exclusives. Nintendo already have the latter, they just need to act on the first two points. Times have changed. As you said, the loss back then was minimal. Now, for Nintendo to compete, the losses would be at least $100-$200 per console. As such, if they sell a million, that's $100m-$200m in loss, assume 3 million for launch and it goes up to over half a billion. It would do serious damage to them. Edited January 11, 2014 by Serebii
Hero-of-Time Posted January 11, 2014 Author Posted January 11, 2014 Thing is, Xbox One's online is below that level at the moment... You do realise that they essentially cleared house and had major reshuffling of the executives in the middle of last year, right? XBOne online is fine. It's just a little fiddly compared to the 360. It took me some time to get used to it. It has party chat and you can see message notifications. The way party chat works is a little weird though. While a reshuffling is nice I imagine most of these people have the same ideas as the higher ups ( if they were already part of Ninty of course ). They need a fresh outlook and maybe someone from the outside to get in a high position and ruffle a few feathers. Any idea where these new peeps came from? Or was it just an internal shuffle?
Goron_3 Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 Times have changed. As you said, the loss back then was minimal. Now, for Nintendo to compete, the losses would be at least $100-$200 per console. As such, if they sell a million, that's $100m-$200m in loss. It would do serious damage to them. I'm not saying they need to make a loss that big, in fact I never stated that. All they need to do is release the most powerful console they can for $250 and fix all the problems they made with the Gamecube and N64. Done.
Serebii Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I'm not saying they need to make a loss that big, in fact I never stated that. All they need to do is release the most powerful console they can for $250 and fix all the problems they made with the Gamecube and N64. Done. Perhaps, but we need a middle ground. I maintain that the GamePad is the best thing to happen to gaming in a while. People suggest dropping it and claim it was a mistake, but it really isn't. We need Nintendo to continue to experiment with things such as this to stop gaming from continuing on, being the same stuff as before but with better graphics. I have grown tired of so many things that the major publishers are doing and am thankful for indies. The GamePad streamlines things that we take for granted. No more do we have to wait for cumbersome map menus to open, or inventory. It also provides various cool new things as seen in NintendoLand and of course Off TV Play, the original concept behind it, is very useful for families who don't have 15 TVs in every room. Nintendo shouldn't sacrifice their experimentation just to put out a console that's pretty much the same as others but with Nintendo software. Do we really want three near identical consoles?
Recommended Posts