Captain Falcon Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 You don't actually know what's in the Next Xbox though, do you? If it's similarly built as a PC, it too can undergo change. It's too early to say what it'll be. Well there has been plenty of rumours floating around and given that SuperDaE guy, who has been responsible for the leaks and tried to flog the dev kit online, has had his house searched and property seized at the request of MS it gives a lot credibility to said rumours as he's clearly in the loop as it were. The rumours being that it also features an AMD 8 "Jaguar" core based x86-64 cpu clocked around 1.6Ghz, has an ATi GPU that delivers around 1.2 teraflops of computational power (compared to the 1.8 of the PS4) and comes with 8GB off DDR3 and 32MB of sDRAM. It also has 4 Data Move Engines. Whilst it can under go some changes, that aren't going to be massive ones at this stage of the day and RAM around amount aside, and not even the devs knew about that, the PS4 has come in exactly in line with rumours that were floating around and there was less evidence to back those up. All the systems tools that will be out there are based on the configuration they are aiming for and substantial changes to the set up of the unit could render a lot of it useless and mean a waste to however much has been plowed into R&D. I know some people here like to bash Digital Foundry both here and at EG but this article was about as accurate as it gets with regards to the PS4 and so it's difficult to think they could be so far off with Durango.
Daft Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Sony has opted for a tighter system - fewer memory modules, but all of them very, very fast. It retains GDDR5 as the single memory pool with all the raw bandwidth advantages that entails, but it is limited to 4GB (there are rumours of 6GB/8GB upgrades but this is highly unlikely to happen). LOOOOOOOOOL
Sheikah Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 You could get rid of the Wii U thread, and Wii board, and just make another PS4 thread in general gaming discussion. I think that would go down well. I think that would do the trick. This thread has attracted people who have hardly set foot on this board, it clearly has some sort of allure. Well, for haters with hardly anything positive to say.
Retro_Link Posted February 22, 2013 Author Posted February 22, 2013 @Daft, what's LOL? (I useless at understanding specs stuff)
Daft Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Just that they thought the 8GB upgrade wouldn't happen. It wasn't that funny, I needed to write ten characters.
Captain Falcon Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 LOOOOOOOOOL To be fair, no one really thought it likely due to the cost involved - or at least, few people did. Devs might be pushing for it but they don't have to worry about the cost of buying the parts and assembling the boxes.
Daft Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) I know, I only find it amusing in hindsight. Edit: Just noticed the user name from the press conference. Hint that DayZ is heading to PS4 maybe? Edited February 22, 2013 by Daft
Dcubed Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 To be fair, no one really thought it likely due to the cost involved - or at least, few people did. Devs might be pushing for it but they don't have to worry about the cost of buying the parts and assembling the boxes. Exactly, it's going to cost a fortune here. The heat and motherboard complexity increase it brings is also very significant - expect it to be bigger and louder than the original PS3 model was... And even then, you have to wonder if the benefits are really worth it in the end. It's all well and good having 8GB of RAM, but there's one big massive bottleneck holding it back and that's the BD disc drive (which offers a max read speed of 27MB per sec). Being generous to Sony here and assuming that games have access to 6GB of that in total (with 2 GB locked off for OS use; I'd be surprised if it were that much really), it would take 3 mins and 48 seconds to fill the RAM completely from disc! - and that's ignoring seek times! You're never going to see loading times that long though, because that would just be completely absurd so unless they require mandatory installs for every game, I can't even imagine a game even really needing that much RAM at any one time (if you were working with less RAM, you'd just remove unnecessary data when you don't need it).
Daft Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 I don't think the BluRay drive is going to be a bottle neck, they'll just install games onto the HDD. Surely that's the biggest advantage of playing while games download/install. Isn't that what DF said?
Shorty Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 Presumably they can use the secondary CPU to install the game while you play now, so it's not a big deal. You've said 6GB but some games will probably manage on 4GB with other memory reserved for preloading the next part.
madeinbeats Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) When you think that only 7 years previous, doubling the RAM in the 360 from 256 to 512Mb cost MS a theoretical 1 billion dollars in future profit margins, you can only imagine the financial burden the ps4 will be. It doesn't seem to make much sense using the RAM they are when it would seem to get absolutely crippled by the drive speeds, but that could be offset slightly by compression tech decompressed on the fly or maybe they might use a kind of hybrid SSD. I know that's even more cost, but hey, they don't seem to care! But even a bog standard HD would raise it to at least around 100Mb/s read speed wouldn't it? When you look at a game like KZ4 though, with it being highly scripted, it knows exactly what it needs to load down the line so can just constantly keep refreshing the RAM. EDIT. Also, we can assume greatly at this point that at least 1Gig, very probably more, will be used for all those OS features, useless they have a separate pool for that, I'm sure most people would doubt that though. Edited February 23, 2013 by madeinbeats
Dcubed Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Presumably they can use the secondary CPU to install the game while you play now, so it's not a big deal. That won't work because the game needs to be able to load the data off the disc at the same time, you can't install the game onto HDD and read data off the disc into RAM at the same time because the disc speed bandwidth is being taken up by the game loading from disc. 27MB is a hard limit that you can't get around, unless you install the game to the HDD before you play and even then, filling 6GB of RAM would still take a long time! (average 7,200 RPM HDD is around 100MB read speed, so it would take around 61 seconds to fill 6GB of RAM - still on the lengthy side...) Edited February 23, 2013 by Dcubed
madeinbeats Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 I know you hear people moaning about it, but are most people really that bothered about installing before you play? I mean, how desperate does someone have to be to resent an install? Can't wait to see how big this and the 720 will be though. What have they learnt from the YROD/RROD fiasco to make sure that doesn't come about again? Do gamers these days just except high console failure rate as a part of life now? I know this gamer doesn't.
Dcubed Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) I know you hear people moaning about it, but are most people really that bothered about installing before you play? I mean, how desperate does someone have to be to resent an install? Can't wait to see how big this and the 720 will be though. What have they learnt from the YROD/RROD fiasco to make sure that doesn't come about again? Do gamers these days just except high console failure rate as a part of life now? I know this gamer doesn't. When games are 25-50GB a pop, you'll find your HDD space gets eaten up pretty quickly! Edited February 23, 2013 by Dcubed
madeinbeats Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 When games are 25-50GB a pop, you'll find your HDD space gets eaten up pretty quickly! Sir, are you hinting Sony has designed a weirdly shaped HDD that only fits in a PS4? $_$
Shorty Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) I'm not sure if you're taking a dig at the Vita's memory cards but considering the PS3 was the first console to use standard 2.5" HDDs that you could swap at your leisure whilst the Wii twiddled its thumbs with 512MB onboard memory that seems to be jumping the gun a little. That won't work because the game needs to be able to load the data off the disc at the same time, you can't install the game onto HDD and read data off the disc into RAM at the same time because the disc speed bandwidth is being taken up by the game loading from disc. I didn't say at the same time, you seem to be forgetting about loading screens. While the game first boots up and loads, during splash screens, good developers will load up enough data to get gameplay moving. During the first cutscene for example, the second CPU transfers data from the second part to the HDD. Things like sounds and textures will be small enough to continue streaming alongside that. In other cases they could just do a small install at the beginning of 3-5 minutes, as opposed to some of the 15-20 minute installs on the PS3. Perhaps you could even be given the option to forgo this installation and have longer loads and worse graphics in the first part of the game. Unfortunately faster optical drives are expensive, so I'm sure they have smart enough people to be figuring out how to make use of the speed they have alongside all that RAM. Edited February 23, 2013 by Shorty
Hero-of-Time Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 I know you hear people moaning about it, but are most people really that bothered about installing before you play? I mean, how desperate does someone have to be to resent an install? Can't wait to see how big this and the 720 will be though. What have they learnt from the YROD/RROD fiasco to make sure that doesn't come about again? Do gamers these days just except high console failure rate as a part of life now? I know this gamer doesn't. I always install every 360 game that I get before playing it. Just makes sense really. Lesswear and tear on the console and faster/smoother loading. As for the failure rates, I had 2 RRODs, a Wii that stopped reading discs and a Wii U that needed repairing a month after launch. As the generation went on I kinda just accepted that machines are built as well as they used to be. Surprisingly I never had any failure issues with the PS3, despite a few people on here having them.
Cube Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 I know you hear people moaning about it, but are most people really that bothered about installing before you play? I mean, how desperate does someone have to be to resent an install? I've installed one game on my 360. I never saw the benefit so I never did it a game - it just seemed like a waste of time. However, if the "play and install" they have for digital games also applies to disc-based games, then I can see it not being a problem.
ipaul Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 I really want one. I can't see the Xbox outdoing this in terms of power, Sony will likely have the better exclusives again and the new online things look very appealing. Looking at the summarised accounts of how the conference went, I can't think of anything that's really putting me off. Launch for Christmas 2013 with say £300 price tag and I think I might be day 1, as long as I actually have the money. A question though, how much has been revealed about backwards compatibility? Sorry if this has been discussed but it's a big thread to trawl through. Also, this amount of fuss over the 8GB thing - over one spec - really reminds me of the old days when bits were used to describe things. Does anyone know how many bits the PS4 is?
Cube Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 Does anyone know how many bits the PS4 is? 64, which is so 1996.
madeinbeats Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 a Wii U that needed repairing a month after launch Launch hardware can be given a grace period, though I do feel Nintendo's QC might have slipped a little more with launch hardware recently. I'm not sure if you're taking a dig at the Vita's memory cards but considering the PS3 was the first console to use standard 2.5" HDDs that you could swap at your leisure whilst the Wii twiddled its thumbs with 512MB onboard memory that seems to be jumping the gun a little. Aye, I was. Sony needs to make as much money back on this thing as they can, so I'd say they might'n stop just there either. The Wii had absolutely no need for a HDD... The Wii U on the other hand may have benefited from a USB3 port so USB3 HDDs could be used with an install option on games if only least, the disc didn't spin so much. Launch for Christmas 2013 with say £300 price tag and I think I might be day 1, as long as I actually have the money. A question though, how much has been revealed about backwards compatibility? Sorry if this has been discussed but it's a big thread to trawl through. £300? You should coco. There is no BC with the PS3. Maybe some of them will be on their stream cloud service, but I imagine at a cost. Used games use is also hazy at the moment, Sony saying it's upto the game maker...
Dcubed Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 Launch hardware can be given a grace period, though I do feel Nintendo's QC might have slipped a little more with launch hardware recently. Aye, I was. Sony needs to make as much money back on this thing as they can, so I'd say they might'n stop just there either. The Wii had absolutely no need for a HDD... The Wii U on the other hand may have benefited from a USB3 port so USB3 HDDs could be used with an install option on games if only least, the disc didn't spin so much. £300? You should coco. There is no BC with the PS3. Maybe some of them will be on their stream cloud service, but I imagine at a cost. Used games use is also hazy at the moment, Sony saying it's upto the game maker... The fact that it took Nintendo so long to allow people to properly use the SD card slot that came installed as standard with the damn system was criminal!
david.dakota Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 Aside from Watch Dogs, I haven't seen much that's really impressed me for PS4. INfamous Second Son looks good, but I found INfamous 2 pretty repetitive after playing the first- something I also found with LBP2 too. Its all early days, so we shall see. Its a big shame that native backwards compatibility is out and PS3 digital purchases are non-transferable though. However, the social side and Gaikai functions have impressed, a huge leap ahead of the community feeds in Miiverse. Video posting is a superb addition, whilst Gaikai powered live feeds really do sound great, and if that's presented similarly to ONlive, it'll make for a unique experience. I am a little concerned that some Gaikai interactive features like 'take over' game play will be rendered useless by lag. Its sounding incredibly promising in this respect, Nintendo really needs to step up its game to compete in this area.
flameboy Posted February 24, 2013 Posted February 24, 2013 Aside from Watch Dogs, I haven't seen much that's really impressed me for PS4. INfamous Second Son looks good, but I found INfamous 2 pretty repetitive after playing the first- something I also found with LBP2 too. Its all early days, so we shall see. Its a big shame that native backwards compatibility is out and PS3 digital purchases are non-transferable though. However, the social side and Gaikai functions have impressed, a huge leap ahead of the community feeds in Miiverse. Video posting is a superb addition, whilst Gaikai powered live feeds really do sound great, and if that's presented similarly to ONlive, it'll make for a unique experience. I am a little concerned that some Gaikai interactive features like 'take over' game play will be rendered useless by lag. Its sounding incredibly promising in this respect, Nintendo really needs to step up its game to compete in this area. I don't think it will be the case if you have a net connection that's fast enough (apparently it only needs around 10 meg line) it will work. How it differs from PC is that every set up is the same in terms of hardware and it's going to run super smooth at both ends. The thing that's worried me is they've promised big before with things like remote play on both psp and vita before and not delivered and I can only hope Gaikai is truly embedded from top to bottom in all these aspects of the console. The PS3 is so annoying in so many ways when it comes to online stuff even the basics like syncing trophies take forever (I think this is an issue with it being bolted on and not being part of the initial firmware)
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