Goafer Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Figured I'd start a topic for it here, seeing as a few members seem to be suffering from the ol' southpaws woe of Deus Ex. Not sure if many people pay attention to which games feature southpaw control schemes, or even know what southpaw is, but there are still games that don't cater for left handed people. Southpaw controls are basically the same as normal controls, but the analogue sticks are swapped allowing the player to aim with their left thumb. Not all left handed people use southpaw and equally, a few right handed people prefer it too. Deus Ex: Human Revolution is the latest game to omit southpaw controls, making it pretty much unplayable for left handed gamers*. I find it hard to believe that in a game with so many variables and different story options, a simple option to swap the control sticks around is too hard/time consuming to program. Surely in such a huge development team there is at least one person who would prefer to aim with their left hand? Most forum topics I've found end up with the same points being raised: Why don't you just get used to playing the normal way? All games have different control schemes, what difference does it make which way round the sticks are? The best way to describe it is to compare it to throwing a ball. Sure, you could get used to throwing with your weak hand, maybe even get good at it, but you'll always be more accurate at throwing with your strong hand. It's the same with aiming in a shooter. Aiming should be done with your strong/more accurate hand. I've started a group on Facebook to try and round up southpaw gamers and show support for the inclusion of Southpaw control schemes. You occasionally get a handful of southpaw gamers complain about the lack of control schemes in games, but it would be far more effective if every developer who omitted them got a slew of emails asking for their inclusion. Hopefully the group gets enough members to show the demand for southpaw control schemes. It really is a case of not being able to play certain games if your a lefty. *I'm using the term left handed gamers to describe anyone who uses southpaw since it technically is a left handed control scheme.
jayseven Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 FCK YOU FORUMS FOR DELETING MY MESSGAE!!! ... Points; - dan dare is southpaw, has legitimate reasoning - flamboy I think was involved in a blog/forum about disabled gamers and the difficulties they face - how hard can it be to simply switch sticks in programming?! - They must have weighed up 'dev tive' vs 'market lost' and have decied it'd be fine. Or they're just stupid. Personally, I'm always staggered when a game doesn't offer subtitles options. As a hard-of-hearing gamer it's useful, but even an average gamer would appreciate the option if only so they can play the game muted at the dead of night to avoid waking house fellows. I also have sight problems and I find that many games do not offer a comprehensive contrast/brightness/etc bunch of options. The biggest games have the biggest budgets and they really should cater for an entire audience. I do wonder if a patch would be possible for lefties - perhaps not an auto one but one you can search out... why not?
Goafer Posted August 25, 2011 Author Posted August 25, 2011 There are options available to lefties as I pointed out in the Deus Ex thread (XCM adapter for PS3 at £60, rewired pad for 360, also £60), but they're not cheap or officially licensed. And besides, it shouldn't really be down to us to have to track down these things and pay extra for them when it can't exactly be hard to add in a little bit of code that allows the switching of the sticks. Most other games manage it fine. The 360 even has an option on the dashboard (or had, I haven't played one properly in a while) to remember if the player is southpaw or not and apply it automatically to games that support it. It really does baffle me that out of so many people that work for the big companies that leave out southpaw (Bethesda and Eidos, I'm looking at you), not one of them thought "I'd like to aim with my left hand please" or at the very least "I'm left handed and often find myself doing things with my left hand, maybe someone would like to aim with their left hand too?". It's something that could run on the console in the background too, so that no extra programming is needed from games developers. Just a little application that runs in the background that swaps the stick inputs before it gets to the game. Sure, it would mean that when the game tells you to press the left stick, you have to move the right one instead, but that's far more preferable than having to adapt to playing right handed. It really does boil my piss how these great games are totally unplayable due to developers being too lazy to put in a simple bit of code that other companies manage with ease.
jayseven Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Oh yeah! I covered some of taht in my original thread- the options are basically "lol spend loads of money and shit". I know you have the peripheral to remap buttons and stuff. Dan Dare said he was interested months/a year ago about that.. But yeah, surely it's, like, a line of code (coming from a non-coder this may be ludicrous). Yeah. It just stinks of rushed game when there's no leftie mode. No subs = cheap dev as tehy couldn't be arsed to pay for subs. That's how I see it.
Magnus Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 BAN SOUTHPAW CONTROLS. You know, just to mess with you lefties. I'm normal, but I do hate it when games have inverted camera controls and don't let you change them. Yes, fine, eventually you adjust, but you spend the first several hours panning the camera in the wrong direction and later on, when you play a game that wasn't developed by idiots, you have to spend some time getting used to the proper camera controls again. Basically, I sympathize. A little. But inverted cameras are a bigger issue because it affects me. The biggest games have the biggest budgets and they really should cater for an entire audience. You'd think so, but then I remember one of the Call of Duty games only having red/green teams, despite red-green color blindness being fairly common among males. I guess they were aiming for the female demographic with that game.
Goafer Posted August 25, 2011 Author Posted August 25, 2011 Oh yeah! I covered some of taht in my original thread- the options are basically "lol spend loads of money and shit". I know you have the peripheral to remap buttons and stuff. Dan Dare said he was interested months/a year ago about that.. But yeah, surely it's, like, a line of code (coming from a non-coder this may be ludicrous). Yeah. It just stinks of rushed game when there's no leftie mode. No subs = cheap dev as tehy couldn't be arsed to pay for subs. That's how I see it. No subs I can kind of understand as it is a lot of code, but surely the text has to be typed out to be made into a script for the actors/actresses anyway? It must already exist in digital form somewhere, so it's not like it has to be typed out in full. I'm normal, but I do hate it when games have inverted camera controls and don't let you change them. Yes, fine, eventually you adjust, but you spend the first several hours panning the camera in the wrong direction and later on, when you play a game that wasn't developed by idiots, you have to spend some time getting used to the proper camera controls again. I hate that too. Although I still find it easier to adjust to that than to adjust to right handed controls. Seriously, find a game that supports southpaw and switch it on. That's what it's like for lefties to try and play the "normal" way. Some lefties adapt quite well to playing "normal", but I just can't. I played Oblivion the "normal" way (didn't have a choice, did I Bethesda?!) and it never felt right. Even after playing through the whole game, things just never felt natural. Even before I'd tried southpaw control schemes, something just always felt wrong.
jayseven Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Magnus; red/green - Cube is colourblind and I know some REAL PEOPLE (lol) who have issues with MW games. Some find the game easy due to their colour blindness, others find it much harder. I don't think there's been enough research into that. Goafer; Yeah, that's why I isolate 'big' games. Subbing definitely costs money and it's not deemed immmediately necessary, but as you say they surely have the script floating around in a textual form - is it truly that tricky to convert it?
Fierce_LiNk Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 I'm left handed, but I play the majority of games using the "normal" default settings. The reason for this is that I grew up playing Super Mario All-Stars and was used to seeing the d-pad on the left side. Then, when I played the 64, I saw somebody hold it with their left hand over the middle "leg", over the analogue stick. So, I thought it should be played that way, with the left hand controlling the analogue. That continue with the Cube and so on. I didn't hear about Southpaw controls until not so long ago. It kinda blew my mind, that you could move with the other hand...Although I remember people saying they controlled James Bond in Goldeneye by using the C-buttons for movement and used the analogue to turn. Seems alien to me. (apparently there's quite a few options in the game, but I never bothered to look) However, that was until I played Metroid Prime: Hunters. I could not hold the stylus in my right hand and move with the d-pad. Didn't work for me. I had to hold the stylus in my left, because thats how I held the pen. Its a god-send that the DS is symmetrical. I played Hotel Dusk with the Lefty-flip option. Wouldn't been a huge pain otherwise. I feel your pain, Goafer. It shouldn't be something thats left out of the game. Multiple controller options should be there, so you can choose which one to go with. It's a pain that I'm worried about experiencing with Kid Icarus. The analogue slider on the 3DS is on the left...there's nothing on the right. So, I'm pretty much buggered when it comes to playing that.
Cube Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) I'm left handed and partially colourblind. Although the thought of using southpaw horrifies me - the option should still be in every game, though. Colourblind problems vary from game to game. I don't have a problem with CoD but i did with Killzone 3 (but that has colourblind options to fix it). My main problem is colour-based puzzle games. I have problems with shades of red/green, blue/purple and yellow/green which leads to me making many mistakes. I even had problems with the blue and purple Links in Four Sword Adventures. It is also something that could be fixed with options - they could let players select the best colours. Audiosurf does that. I also hate lack of subtitles. Singularity is a particularly bad offender. No subtitles, very bad Russian accents and people talk to you in the middle of noisy combat. You can't understand a thing. My lefthandedness will likely be a problem with the 3DS, what with my left hand being used to the "movement" analogue stick and using a pen/stylus. Even moving the circle pad to the other side wouldn't help me there Edited August 25, 2011 by Cube
Shorty Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 What games have you been playing without subtitles? Genuine curiosity.
jayseven Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Shorty; I really don't keep a full memory of games, but from what i recall; the original AC, dead space and army of two (and the sequel) red faction... Many culprits mostly offer incomplete subtitles - often in-game dialogue is lost (gears, alan wake, mass effect, mw, and so on...) which isn't wholely detrimental, it still reduces enjoyment for me. Recently (for me), Wet, DMC4, Halo 3, The Club, Borderlands... Most games either don't have proper subtitles or don't sub all dialogue. You know how deaf I am - kinda - with people I'm fine as I can lip-read. With tv or movies I miss off-screen dialogue. In general a lack of subs does not detriment a game, but often in my average-game trawling you'll find subs have been skipped. I genuinely don't remember all titles that are guilty (but I feel I should do from now on!) because mostly I'll overlook it with games.
Fierce_LiNk Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Subtitles are pretty important. Although, it is an eye opener sometimes when I look at the subtitles available for a DVD and there's only the English language option. Really, we've got it easy in that respect compared to those in Mainland Europe. Lack of South Paw controls in games is disappointing. It's not really something you should ask for, it should just be there. Same with subtitles, in my opinion. I use them in all my games, because I don't want to miss an important line. I want to know what was said. Goafer: Do you play bass left handed? If so, did you have to pay more for the bass? I play drums lefty and I was looking at double bass drum pedals, and I would probably have to fork out double the price, maybe a few hundred quid more...just to get the left handed/footed option. Its a fucking joke really.
jayseven Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 (I just want to say that subtitles for DVDs is really, really annoying. Many offer subtitles for english, then subs for the hearing impaired. Usually, both options will choose to overlook specks of dialogue here and there, often abridging things [which surely goes against the idea that a movie is a finished piece of art, in many instances] or, in some instances, containing spelling mistakes [i, Robot is the most recent movie I watched that had them]. Srsly, just HIRE ME and I'll tell you how wrong you got it :P)
Iun Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 (edited) Halo 3 I hear you on that. I tried playing Halo 3 here... It's Chinese spoken dialogue but with English Subtitles. And even then, the sub titles are cut-scene only. So I end up missing about two-thirds of the story. Eventually I just stopped playing. Back to left handedness: I was born a leftie but my teacher made me sit on my left hand and write with my right. The consequence is that my writing is incomprehensible with either hand and I'm pretty much cack-handed with everything. Except boxing. I'm a DAMN FINE southpaw. And someone mentioned about inverted look? Since Lylat Wars I have to invert every control scheme, it just seems to make more sense. Except for Resident Evil 5. Inverting the look doesn't help at all. In fact, that game is just shit, really. I even had problems with the blue and purple Links in Four Sword Adventures. That must have been like a bad dream. Edited August 26, 2011 by Iun Automerged Doublepost
Cube Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 The Four Sword Adventures thing wasn't too bad - it just meant that I had to attempt some things twice. I still really enjoyed the game. Jay: Are Valve subtitles the type you want to see in all games? The full subtitles option gives you all spoken dialogue, enemy noises and the music cues (the enemy spawn ones) so you don't miss out on anything.
Ellmeister Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 I'm left handed and have never even heard of this until now. I think I just play it normally but I'm surprised big companies can't just include it as standard option for FPS mainly if it isn't that hard to include.
EEVILMURRAY Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 The best way to describe it is to compare it to throwing a ball. Sure, you could get used to throwing with your weak hand, maybe even get good at it, but you'll always be more accurate at throwing with your strong hand. It's the same with aiming in a shooter. Aiming should be done with your strong/more accurate hand. In theory, before analogue sticks were on the right side, that favoured the left handed people. I also have sight problems and I find that many games do not offer a comprehensive contrast/brightness/etc bunch of options. Word to this. Some of the text on games I've played recently have been way too small. When I first got Banjo Kazooie on the 360 the tiny text made it unplayable. Thankfully there was a patch to make it larger. Didn't help much.
Happenstance Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Word to this. Some of the text on games I've played recently have been way too small. When I first got Banjo Kazooie on the 360 the tiny text made it unplayable. Thankfully there was a patch to make it larger. Didn't help much. I remember trying the Banjo demo on an SD tv, couldnt read the writing at all. I didnt realise a patch was released, when people complained initially they said they wouldnt be able to change the size of the text. Still annoys me that people with SD tvs are just ignored at this point.
Shorty Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Shorty; I really don't keep a full memory of games, but from what i recall; More than I expected, for shame. To answer your question, yep the subtitles will all be there in text form. But the real effort lies in timing each sentence to the speech but leaving it there long enough to read. Certainly not making excuses, however; subtitles are an absolute must. Options for subtitles should be: none, cutscenes, dialogue, all - the latter including NPC chatter and maybe even some sfx. I put Xenoblade on Japanese voices and turned on the subtitles, but was a bit annoyed there were no subtitles for mid-battle banter. That's the kind of thing I see omitted the most.
Happenstance Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 So why do you guys think these things are left out of some games? Laziness, ignorance of the need etc?
Coolness Bears Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 I'm left handed and I'm confused by all this. No worries whatever the control I'll suck at the game anyway.
EEVILMURRAY Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Left handed gamers have been able to aim with their left (their "strongest") hand for years, what is it after the introduction of a right analogue stick which created the bitching?
Goafer Posted August 26, 2011 Author Posted August 26, 2011 Goafer: Do you play bass left handed? If so, did you have to pay more for the bass? I play drums lefty and I was looking at double bass drum pedals, and I would probably have to fork out double the price, maybe a few hundred quid more...just to get the left handed/footed option. Its a fucking joke really. Yeah, left handed basses are usually more expensive than the right handed equivalent. I can understand that though, since there is less demand, therefore less sales. Since each instrument requires set tools and jigs, the left handed version has to be more expensive to cover machine setup costs. On a side note, I got one of the last Ibanez SR500Ls in the country. Ibanez discontinued it and haven't replaced it with a similar spec model. Lefties have to make do with the SR300L now, which isn't as high spec. I feel smug. (I just want to say that subtitles for DVDs is really, really annoying. Many offer subtitles for english, then subs for the hearing impaired. Usually, both options will choose to overlook specks of dialogue here and there, often abridging things [which surely goes against the idea that a movie is a finished piece of art, in many instances] or, in some instances, containing spelling mistakes [i, Robot is the most recent movie I watched that had them]. Srsly, just HIRE ME and I'll tell you how wrong you got it :P) If they don't abridge it though, won't it be too much text to read in a short space of time? Honestly don't know the answer to that. Except boxing. I'm a DAMN FINE southpaw. Apparently, left handed people have the advantage in fighting and one on one sports. Because lefties make up about 10% of the population, the odds of fighting a left handed person is less (10% funnily enough), meaning right handed fighters don't get much practice fighting against lefties. Left handed fighters however, fight against right handed people 90% of the time, meaning they are well practiced against right handers. Lefty on lefty is still an even playing field. There's a famous example (I forget who) where a lefty boxer came out in a right handed stance, swapped to a left handed stance straight away, confusing his opponent, before landing the first and only punch of the bout. Left handed gamers have been able to aim with their left (their "strongest") hand for years, what is it after the introduction of a right analogue stick which created the bitching? The fact that we have been able to aim with our left on previous generations is irrelevant. We can't play southpaw in certain current games. These games are now pretty much unplayable without adapters or new controllers. All because there isn't a simple bit of coding that swaps the sticks. It's can't be hard/expensive to implement because smaller companies manage it fine. We want to give these companies our money for their products, but they've forced us out of the market.
jayseven Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Cube; hell yes. Valve's subtitling is brilliant, but they have the time and resources to do them (and do those excellent audio commentaries). Goafer; abridging is understandable in some instances, but many times the subtitles choose to change the wording entirely, omit things that easily could've been said, leave out half a dialogue exchange... I am only 'hard of hearing' so I tend to miss quiet words, things spoken off-screen, or just a few words here and there. I like to refer to subs in such situations. Next time you watch a movie, put the subs on and you'll see what I mean. Every movie has to deal with the issue of appropriate abridging, and perhaps some things they leave out affect me and not others.
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