Ronnie Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 *Fans want a new change after MM, we got WW**Fans hated the game, wanted it to go back to OOT way, also talk about how awesome MM is, we then get TP* *Fans hate that game, now declare that WW was the best thing ever and want it like it was* *Nintendo now say they are going to change the way it's going to be, fans groan once more* Future: *New Zelda comes out, fans groan, they talk about how awesome TP was, and wish it was like that again* Why do gamers complain about really awesome games? I don't see what you're getting at. Public perception of MM or TP hasn't changed. MM was always well loved and TP, generally people found it a very good game, if a little disappointing (after the unbelievable hype). The only game that seems to have improved in people's minds as time's gone on is WW, and even that probably has a bit to do with getting used to the art style.
ThePigMarcher Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 As a couple of others have stated, the series could definitely do with some re-invention, the problem being is that the way Nintendo are currently operating means I have very little faith that any of these 'structure changes' will actually be any good. Suppose, this means I had better reconsider selling the Wii, until at least next June, just in case they actually do have something worthwhile planned.
david.dakota Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 If Nintendo simply add some Metroid style back tracking, add some VO work, orchestrated music and a cohesive, exciting and original story - colour me pleased. For some reason, i'm expecting a First Person Slasher though.
Fused King Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Let me just type the obvious sentence here: 'I don't care about what'll be nor what has been typed. I'M GETTING MYSELF A NEW ZELDA FOR WII:D'
Grazza Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 I agree with what Ronnie is saying. There's nothing wrong with the Zelda formula, it just needs gradual evolution like everything else - keeping the good bits and improving the lesser bits. The problem with Twilight Princess was that it didn't build on the progression previous Zelda games had made - it even went backwards, discarding many of them. Zelda does need to learn a few things from Metroid, which is the more impressive series of the two at the moment. I liked how in Wind Waker, the sword and shield would gradually improve and automatically replace the last version. Metroid Prime 3 is probably the best so far for this, as you have your beams, your missiles, your grapple and your ball abilities (as well as armour and Phazon abilities). I wouldn't mind seeing Link have a number of set abilities that each gradually improve, rather than the enormous inventories of Twilight Princess. Another thing that's grating for me is the length of some of the dungeons. I find the co-op dungeons in Wind Waker and some of the dungeons in Twilight Princess a bit too long and complex in replays of the games. Wind Waker generally had the right idea, in that it was less about the dungeons, but I'd like that taken further. Dungeons could be as small as a house or as big as a castle, but the important thing is they don't feel detached (no pun intended) from the game world. I also really like the idea Hero of Time mentioned about roaming bosses. I can't wait to see what they've come up with.
or else you will DIE Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) Dear Nintendo, For your next Zelda game, please make sure that Kakariko village doesn't suck as much as it did in TP. Thanks, Or Else You Will DIE. Edited November 19, 2009 by or else you will DIE
dazzybee Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 I don't see what you're getting at. Public perception of MM or TP hasn't changed. MM was always well loved and TP, generally people found it a very good game, if a little disappointing (after the unbelievable hype). The only game that seems to have improved in people's minds as time's gone on is WW, and even that probably has a bit to do with getting used to the art style. No, I completely agree with Killer. People did hate Wind Waker, Majoras Mask, Twilight princess and then back track. But it's the same with everything. People hated the N64; then hated the gamecube and loved the N64, then hated the Wii and loved the Gamecube. They'll hate the next one and love the Wii. When ever a new album comes out people say it wasn't as god as their last one. The newest Only Fools and Horses episodes are not a patch on the old ones etc etc. Then after a bit of time they sort of realise they were actually very good but nostalgia is a beautiful thing. If only people weren't so damn stupid in the first place.....
Ronnie Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Who hated Majora's Mask? Generally speaking, no one. It got rave reviews across the board from reviewers and regular gamers and it's popularity has never fluctuated. Who hated Twilight Princess? It wasn't as well loved as other Zeldas, and rightly so, but I don't recall the game suddenly getting more popular as time went on. It's always been "a great game, but a bit meh" (again, generally speaking) I think it takes time for people to get used to something (WW's art style, the Wii name, the Wii control mechanism), but in terms of Zelda games, the only one I believe where the perception of it has changed over time, is Wind Waker, not really well liked at first, but as time goes on, it's remembered by fans far more fondly. I see what you're saying about people hating something, then when a new one comes out, the old one was great etc... - but I'm not so sure it applies to Zelda. My opinion obviously, could be wrong.
dazzybee Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 There is no wrong Yeah, I suppose I didn't mean Twilight or Majoras was hated, but iniyially there were met with "It's no Ocarina" But they're both incredible games. In fact, controversially, I maybe think Twilight is my favourite of them all
Fierce_LiNk Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Who hated Majora's Mask? Generally speaking, no one. It got rave reviews across the board from reviewers and regular gamers and it's popularity has never fluctuated. Who hated Twilight Princess? It wasn't as well loved as other Zeldas, and rightly so, but I don't recall the game suddenly getting more popular as time went on. It's always been "a great game, but a bit meh" (again, generally speaking) I think it takes time for people to get used to something (WW's art style, the Wii name, the Wii control mechanism), but in terms of Zelda games, the only one I believe where the perception of it has changed over time, is Wind Waker, not really well liked at first, but as time goes on, it's remembered by fans far more fondly. I see what you're saying about people hating something, then when a new one comes out, the old one was great etc... - but I'm not so sure it applies to Zelda. My opinion obviously, could be wrong. I think there are a fair few out there who disliked the "time" aspect of Majora's Mask. Which was a fundamental element of the game. I loved it, probably one of the finest games that I have ever played. About Twilight Princess: How many people have actually given this game another chance and played it through a second time? If the answer to that is "not very many" then it's a bit unfair to assume that opinions for the game will change over time with gamers if people are not giving it that chance. Again, I loved it, and it will probably still rank as one of my favourite gaming experiences. I keep getting cravings to play this, but I want to put time aside...which I kinda don't have. I need my Zelda fix. I'll be interested to see what Nintendo do this time around with Zelda.
killer kirby Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 I don't see what you're getting at. Public perception of MM or TP hasn't changed. MM was always well loved and TP, generally people found it a very good game, if a little disappointing (after the unbelievable hype). MM been out longer, people have now given it more time and now praise the game. Back when MM came out, Internet was not as so common as it is now, so when a new Zelda get's announced and you just finished enjoying the greatest games of all time, everyone was going nuts for a sequel to OOT, thinking of Adult Link, Ganondorf and Zelda in a game once again. But what did everyone find out? Re-used Hyrule characters, world no where near as big as the previous, less dungeons (I think it was the lowest ever for a zelda game) and no mention of Ganon and one little scene of Zelda, you play as a child through the whole game, mask collecting, as well as the 3 day system Yep, everyone truly loved the game when it came out The problem with Twilight Princess was that it didn't build on the progression previous Zelda games had made - it even went backwards, discarding many of them. Wh...huh...did we play the same game? -Greatest dungeon designs in a Zelda game so far. -Snowboarding -Swimming is really awesome now (Funny how this game you do more swimming then you do in Wind Waker ) -Malo's shopping -Fishing is a lot better now -Really awesome and new unique equipments you get in it -The art in the game is easily on par with the rest of the Zelda series. -More characters Link was attached to. -Horse riding -A unique way of learning new moves We seriously have not played the same game.
Retro_Link Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 What I think I struggle with sometimes when it comes to new Zelda's, is the whole 'A new Link' aspect. My first proper Zelda was Ocarina of Time (I'd played a few minute of ALTTP, but not much) and then Majoras Mask where the same Link was carried over, he was the hero you grew to love. You grew to know this Link as a character in his own right, and then when he's suddenly uprooted and in a new location with a slightly altered appearance I think it kind of jars with me at the start of a new Zelda, because personally I don't really want to accept this new guy! But why I enjoy Wind Waker a lot more now, is I now see it as its own game. It's own Sea Faring adventure, as opposed to... wait, this isn't the Zelda I remember. I'm also not much of a fan of the 'Link in his everday clothes' thing that they've introduced of late.
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 I think the problem with the Zelda series is the fact that too much attention is focused on coming up with a gimmick, rather than a progressive evolution of the series. Probably why OOT is held at such esteem because it's just a pure, 'no gimmick' game. Change of graphics? Who really gives a damn. Zelda is Zelda. True Zelda fans loved Wind waker as they did the previous Zelda games they've played, but they were disgruntled by the weak gameplay elements towards the latter parts of the game. Same with Twilight Princess. Rather than improve of the faults of the past game, Nintendo seem want to tantilize audiences with the catch-22 of the game, be it: cel shading, wolf Link or whatever YET keep the same faults and shortcomings. Even with this teaser image of the Wii game, a 'catch' is presented... Why not just put up a pic of Link with "Zelda Wii coming soon"? Don't try to sell me Zelda. So knock off the BS, and create a good, and engaging storyline. That's all that's needed. With story and imagination comes the structure of the game. Boring thing about TP is that the structure was annoyingly (perhaps lazily) similar to OOT's; "Quiet boy in the 'shire'". The opening scene of MM was such an amazing and engaging throwback that already at the begining of the game, made te player truly feel that this was something different; it was the story that did this, with or without the Deku transformation. In short; create a good and involving storyline. Elemental dungeons are not necessary and never were (case in point: Jabu-Jabus belly, Stone Tower Temple, Goron Mines without the lava). ADD content, not the opposite. In what pathological sense does it make that an 8 year old predecessor of a game feature more usuable swords and shields? "...but lazy people are never consistent"
Dante Posted November 20, 2009 Author Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) IGN - New Details Nintendo's next The Legend of Zelda game will provide a fundamental departure for the series, with the traditional structure of the adventure game being altered according to comments made by series producer Eiji Aonuma in a recent IGN interview. Briefly alluded to at this year's E3, the new Zelda game is already known to be centred round the Wii's MotionPlus add-on, with the swordplay and archery that are mainstays in the series benefitting from the technology. Confirming 1:1 swordplay, Aonuma said, "We're taking advantage of MotionPlus. It's become very natural – the movement of your arms is precisely reflected in the gameplay. Thanks to the technological advancements, we hope the gameplay can be more accessible to people." In the run-up to the release of The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks, the all-new DS instalment for Link and company, Aonuma also revealed new details on the Wii game, which is to be fully unveiled at next year's E3. "We're making efforts regarding the total flow of the Zelda game," said Aonuma, "So far, the basic flow of the Zelda games is you're exploring a field, you go to a dungeon, you conquer it and return to the field. We're looking at altering that traditional flow. That's all I can share, and I can't say more until E3 next year." A teaser image released at E3 suggests that Link could be without his iconic Master Sword, and with changes being made to the game's structure it seems that the next Zelda game could be the most radical yet. We'll be bringing you the full interview with Aonuma in the very near future. Breaking up the Zelda series also removing the Lttp & Ott redictable formula by using Metroid Prime style as the environments are the dungeons itself? Edited November 20, 2009 by Dante
The Lillster Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 IGN - New Details Breaking up the Zelda series also removing the Lttp & Ott redictable formula by using Metroid Prime style as the environments are the dungeons itself? Maybe instead of completing a dungeon in one, you have to keep going to different places and find new items or hints and then come back to the dungeon. That's what I'm thinking after reading those quotes.
Ronnie Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 Maybe instead of completing a dungeon in one, you have to keep going to different places and find new items or hints and then come back to the dungeon. That's what I'm thinking after reading those quotes. I think it will be far more radically different than that. Only 7-8 months to wait. Argh MM been out longer, people have now given it more time and now praise the game. Back when MM came out, Internet was not as so common as it is now, so when a new Zelda get's announced and you just finished enjoying the greatest games of all time, everyone was going nuts for a sequel to OOT, thinking of Adult Link, Ganondorf and Zelda in a game once again. But what did everyone find out? Re-used Hyrule characters, world no where near as big as the previous, less dungeons (I think it was the lowest ever for a zelda game) and no mention of Ganon and one little scene of Zelda, you play as a child through the whole game, mask collecting, as well as the 3 day system Yep, everyone truly loved the game when it came out Oh please, you have no idea what you're talking about. When the game was first announced and details started to surface, maybe people were apprehensive, but once it was released and people PLAYED the game, which is the point we're talking about here (opinions and appreciation of the Zelda games as time passes) - it got excellent reviews from the beginning by both reviewers and ordinary fans. Nothing's changed since then. OOT was always well loved. TP was always really well liked. Interest hasn't wavered. Your point is flawed. The only game whereby critical acclaim has improved as time's gone on is Wind Waker. One particular case of that happening doesn't = a trend. Wh...huh...did we play the same game? -Greatest dungeon designs in a Zelda game so far. -Snowboarding -Swimming is really awesome now (Funny how this game you do more swimming then you do in Wind Waker ) -Malo's shopping -Fishing is a lot better now -Really awesome and new unique equipments you get in it -The art in the game is easily on par with the rest of the Zelda series. -More characters Link was attached to. -Horse riding -A unique way of learning new moves We seriously have not played the same game. I agree with Grazza, TP felt like a couple of steps forward and a giant step backwards for Zelda. Every iteration of 3D Zeldas brought something new to the table, TP just felt a bit meh. Great, fantastic game, I enjoyed it, but compared to the rest, it felt a bit stale and dull. -Greatest dungeon designs in a Zelda game so far. A matter of opinion. Half of them were completely linear. -Swimming is really awesome now (Funny how this game you do more swimming then you do in Wind Waker ) "Swimming is really awesome now"? I found it very annoying and glitchy, and regardless, swimming was far better implemented and necessary in Majora's Mask. TP just rehashed it, again, not adding anything new to the table. -Malo's shopping So? What's your point? -Fishing is a lot better now An improvement -Really awesome and new unique equipments you get in it You get new items in every Zelda game. -The art in the game is easily on par with the rest of the Zelda series. Another matter of opinion, compared to WW, the art style looked a little dull to me. -More characters Link was attached to. I thought Hyrule in TP was dead actually, very little going on, especially compared to Wind Waker and Majora's Mask. -Horse riding There was horse riding in OOT and MM. Ok you can fight a lot easier, but it's hardly anything groundbreaking. -A unique way of learning new moves Not sure what you mean here. The skeleton guard thing? It was cool I guess. I think you're missing Grazza's point. Of course TP had some cool inclusions, it would have gotten universally slated if there wasn't cool little things in the game like you mentioned above. The point is, TP was a fairly safe Zelda game, it didn't build on the evolutionary progression of previous Zelda games. That's the reason why, generally speaking, most people consider it the weakest of the 3D Zeldas, and why Aonuma and Miyamoto are interested in breathing new life into the next Zelda game. But back to your point about opinions on Zelda games changing over time, I think that's bollocks personally. No one hated OOT. No one hated MM. And opinions on TP don't seem to have changed either. The only one that has is Wind Waker, and I really do suspect it's because people have gotten used to the art style, and when compared to the relatively bland and bleak style of TP... it's made WW more popular.
killer kirby Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 Ronnie's long post Yes, you are 100% right, your opinion is all that matters, my posts are flawed. MM was always a fantastic game and was never downed, never in it's life was it compared to OOT, it was just so perfect and everyone loved it from the start. WW is now loved as well, and TP will remain to be the not so loved game for the rest of it's life. You are so right in everything you said. I will not argue with you since you seem to be an expert at this type of knowledge of Zelda.
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) Kirby, you seem to be agitated that your opinions have been challenged... I think you walk a thin line when you say "people hated" this or that. Maybe you're looking too far in to things. Earlier on in my account history, a lot of members disliked the way I criticized Nintendo. I'm pretty sure I bought TP and WW on the date of their realease, and i played them well into the night on the following days - so i was obviously enjoying it. But as a fan, who financially supports the production of such games, damn right I'm allowed to voice complaints as well as praise. This is what I think you and Dazzy fail to want to understand. Most people who played them, praised WW and TP before they criticised it. And in my eye, for the development of a "perfect Zelda", one criticism is worth more than a thousand praises. Most of the things you actually praised TP for are highly subjective. Malo Mart for example, was an example to me of how boxed in the game was; featuring the games only main sidequest to the plot. See, in the eye of progression, remembering the Biggoron sword quest, that was a set back, not an evolution. Sad thing is how you listed the things to 'like' is probably what Nintendo quickly jotted in a brainstorm. In WW, using the weapons of enemies was a nice little feature that could have been delved into a lot in TP. In this respect WW and TP feel so detacthed compared with OOT and MM. Remember how there were only like 8 masks in OOT... Look how many there were in MM. that's what I'm talking about; PROGRESSION. A new graphical style is not progression. Edited November 20, 2009 by King_V
ReZourceman Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 I hope it has multi player functionality....
LostOverThere Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) Aww, the thread got derailed already. D: Edited November 20, 2009 by LostOverThere
FireMeowth Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 changes We don't need changes. WE NEED VAATI!
darksnowman Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 Clearly TP is loved by everyone... Well, I loved it. Which is all that matters, right?
Emasher Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 I think the problem is that people get a little too hyped for Zelda games (not because they're overrated, but because they're so good). And when the games come out, they're disappointed by them, even if they're amazing games. By the time the next game comes out, people have gotten over it, and when they realize the new game isn't as good as they unrealistically hyped it up to be, they start saying its not as good as the last game, as they now realize the last game was amazing. I hope that makes sense.
Grazza Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 About Twilight Princess: How many people have actually given this game another chance and played it through a second time? I've played it three times and you're right, it was far, far better the 2nd and 3rd times, especially for pacing. However, the 2nd and 3rd playthroughs did clarify for me what was actually wrong with the game and which bits were just my disappointment. Wh...huh...did we play the same game? I don't agree with your whole list, but I do agree that progression was made, such as: * moving with weapons * horseback fighting * swordfighting moves However, it also went backwards in these areas: * controls * 3D town design * camera * loading times * NPC routines * dungeon integration * using enemy weapons ...And a few others like the absence of fire/ice arrows, power bracelets and such. I don't mean to be rude, but it's just too easy to say people change their minds or they hyped it up too much. The truth is far more subtle and difficult to define. Regarding the older games, I can only speak for myself, but I loved Majora's Mask back in the year 2000, considering it even better than OoT (an incredible achievement). Same goes for Wind Waker - I have never once criticised the cel-shading, and I loved it the first time I played it (again, considering it the best so far), although I do admit a lot of people didn't. You're right, Twilight Princess did make progress in some areas, and people will say "It's not as good as Twilight Princess" if it isn't, but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate those things now. Rather than improve of the faults of the past game, Nintendo seem want to tantilize audiences with the catch-22 of the game, be it: cel shading, wolf Link or whatever YET keep the same faults and shortcomings. Very true. Well, personally I see cel-shading as an improvement rather than a gimmick, but I agree about the wolf as it added a side-set of gameplay instead of improving the core gameplay. IGN - New Details Briefly alluded to at this year's E3, the new Zelda game is already known to be centred round the Wii's MotionPlus add-on, with the swordplay and archery that are mainstays in the series benefitting from the technology. Hmm, I'm definitely getting the feeling these may be the only weapons (hopefully bombs as well). Breaking up the Zelda series also removing the Lttp & Ott redictable formula by using Metroid Prime style as the environments are the dungeons itself? I wouldn't like to see it as organic as Metroid, because I think that'd be too confusing for people. There definitely still need to be towns and buildings, but I'd love to have mines and caverns with multiple entrances that you can pass through and return to different bits time after time. One thing that'd make it feel really up-to-date is if you could move whilst using any item (bow, sword, whatever). If you can't, it's just going to feel sub-Metroid Prime. Also, how about a new graphics engine where you can switch between 1st-person, 3rd-person and over-the-shoulder whenever you like? That'd make it feel really high-tech and make people say "wow".
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