DCK Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 Shame it will never come out and USA games dont work on Pal Wii's You can import it from mainland Europe. The game isn't banned over here. Good to see this game is good, but I don't think I would feel comfortable playing this game. I can handle violence, but this takes it too far for me - especially considering the motion controls.
Owen Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 So is Rockstar going to release this game in mainland Europe? or isn't that enough sales for them to bother releasing it?
thirtynine. Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 Nintendo and sony have said they wont publish the games so it dosent matter where its banned.
Hellfire Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 Nintendo and sony have said they wont publish the games so it dosent matter where its banned. Those were e-mail responses I believe, and they wouldn't be the ones publishing them anyway.
Kurtle Squad Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 lol, very true, the AO rating may well be justified. it's certainly an 18+ game. i'vd never understood that...Games that only adults should play are banned (even though that;s how it is for GTA in the UK) and also 'Mature' is only 1 year off of AO anyway....MAKES NO SENCE. It's also funny it's called mature, no 17 year old is... "The Wii is for everyone!!!.....Appart from Adults(Though the 'Porn Channel' is exempt from this)" - Nintendo Hmmm....I reckon there could be good pirate copies made of this,a hugely organised black market for Manhunt 2...Surely that's possible if someone can get their hands on the official software for making Wii games.
4q2 Posted June 24, 2007 Posted June 24, 2007 It is such a damn shame that this game is possibly not going to see the light of day in its true form... After reading certain hands on reports and reviews it seems like it was a very well crafted game with a lot of thought put into it. The one point I am missing here is when N were apparently in talks (or begging) with R* to get them producing games for the Wii. Surely they will feel more than a little let down at this point with the lack of their support.
Zechs Merquise Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 It is such a damn shame that this game is possibly not going to see the light of day in its true form...After reading certain hands on reports and reviews it seems like it was a very well crafted game with a lot of thought put into it. The one point I am missing here is when N were apparently in talks (or begging) with R* to get them producing games for the Wii. Surely they will feel more than a little let down at this point with the lack of their support. Even if Nintendo went against the industry grain and granted them a license (neither Sony or Microsoft grant AO licenses either) it still would be banned in most countries and effectively banned in the states as no one stocks games with AO ratings, except certain small independent retailers.
4q2 Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 Even if Nintendo went against the industry grain and granted them a license (neither Sony or Microsoft grant AO licenses either) it still would be banned in most countries and effectively banned in the states as no one stocks games with AO ratings, except certain small independent retailers. I understand that point, but granting the license would have opened up at least some options for none too shoddy sales of the game. Internet game sales have shot in the last few years, at least they mostly guarantee a credit card sale (ie. not many minors have free reign of a credit card).
Ashley Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 So it might have been the sexscenes then? But if it is banned for sex scenes why do PEGI even bother having a 'content discriptor' which is to do with sex; Granted games like Lula 3D and Singles use it but were the sex scenes really real, or really twisted or what? (If it is indeed the sex scenes that has got it banned) (And yeah I know in the UK its BBFC but everywhere else...?)
steggy Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 ;486451"](If it is indeed the sex scenes that has got it banned) (And yeah I know in the UK its BBFC but everywhere else...?) Well it could possibly be the sex scenes that got it a AO rating in America, who know's why it got banned here. Probably far too bleak for us English to handle, with our rainy summer it could push us all over the edge. We know that NoA have commented to say that they wont release an AO game, but we don't know specifically if that means Nintendo wont release it in Europe. I mean afterall it hasn't recieved a AO rating in France so chances are it could still be released there.
Cookyman Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 From GoNintendo The National Institute on Media and the Family has called the suspension of Manhunt 2 a “victory for parents and children.” Minneapolis, Minn.-based NIMF has been a vocal critic of the videogame industry, in particular the Entertainment Software Rating Board, which NIMF had called a “flawed” system. Now, NIMF is a big fan of the ESRB. “Because of the their thoughtful decision to give Manhunt 2 its strongest rating, ‘Adults-Only,’ the ESRB has sent a strong message to Take-Two and other game makers that they no longer can push the envelope on gratuitous violence in videogames,” NIMF said in a statement late last week. NIMF’s statement went on to say that the ESRB showed “real leadership” in assigning the AO rating, which essentially bans such rated games from distribution on consoles. Major retailers do not carry AO titles. In the wake of the AO rating last week, Take-Two, parent of Manhunt 2 developer Rockstar, opted to “temporarily suspend” distribution of the game as it explores other options. NIMF said that it hopes the AO rating will make Rockstar and Take-Two think twice before releasing adult-targeted games, even calling out Rockstar’s next big release. “Hopefully Take-Two has learned from its Manhunt 2 experience and will undertake preventive measures to ensure its future games, including Grand Theft Auto IV, are appropriate for families and gamers,” read the statement. Previous titles in the GTA franchise have been rated “Mature” (17 and up). NIMF also addressed what could become a hairy situation regarding the Nintendo Wii and its motion-sensing controller. Some organizations take particular offense to violent games on the Wii because players actually act out on-screen action with the controllers. “The uniqueness of Nintendo’s Wii gives game raters a new challenge when it comes to first-player shooter games,” stated NIMF. “We take the ESRB’s decision about Manhunt 2 as a positive step in addressing this new challenge.” Manhunt 2 was originally slated to release in July for Wii, PS2 and PSP. Manhunt 2 - Hands On [ Preview ] Restricted by the BBFC, AO'd by the ESRB, and disowned by both Sony and Nintendo...yup, this is Manhunt 2 alright... Author: Jon Wilcox | Date Added: 25/06/2007 What a week it's been for Rockstar Games; not so much a manhunt as a witch hunt, it seems that every official board and authority has jumped on the bandwagon to deliver an electric cow prod right between the legs of the publisher - a real shock to the system. Given the first Rejected non-rating from the British Board of Film Classification in ten years, smacked with the Adults Only kiss of death by the ESRB in North America (leading to the subsequent ostracising comments from both Sony and Nintendo), it's been a...great week for free publicity for the game. With the ESRB and BBFC's decision, coupled with Take-Two's decision to put the game on indefinite suspension, perhaps the most pertinent question is this: why do you want to play Manhunt 2? Like a white-knuckle rollercoaster ride or a horror movie, people like to be scared knowing that ultimately, everything is going to be alright - and the tangible sense of relief that follows. This sense of relief is something that permeates through every level, every location, and every shadowy corner of the game; the only difference being that the relief comes not through finishing the story of Leo Kasper and Daniel Lamb rather, it emerges through surviving every deadly encounter that Manhunt 2 has to throw at you. Waking to the sound of his own screams, the body of a strangled nurse in his padded cell, and a six year gap in his memory, Daniel Lamb isn't your average protagonist for a videogame. But then again, neither is 'co-star' Leo Kasper. Originally part of the shadowy Pickman Project Team, Lamb volunteered himself as a participant when the experiment found itself starved of funds - and with the mental asylum in a state of riot, he finds the perfect opportunity to make his escape and figure out what exactly happened to him. Rockstar gave us the opportunity to play through three scenarios in the game, one on PlayStation2 and the others on Wii, set in various stages of Lamb's search for the truth. Very much a plunge into the deep end, our first hands on scenario took us to one of the Project's seedy fronts, an S&M club populated with hunters. The third chapter in the game, appropriately entitled "Deviant", opens with Lamb clambering through a window and into one of the club's bathrooms, where a hunter just so happens to be coming to relieve himself. The first opportunity to demonstrate the game's new Environmental Executions, involving the hunter, Lamb, and the hunter's head colliding with the porcelain in a bone-splintering action. Or two. Moving into the club itself, the tension ramps up with further encounters with hunters and a hick-like bartender, which Lamb counters with measurable force. Using the light and shadow dynamic of the game, together with the additional safety net of the thumping music, Manhunt's trademark cat and mouse gameplay comes to the fore here, making the player deliberate on when the necessary defensive kill should be made. Whilst dodgy (and deadly) enough above ground, unlucky clients also have a habit of ending up in the club's dungeon, a place where (not unlike 2005 Eli Roth movie, Hostel) all sorts of vile activities are performed: electric chairs, iron maidens, and a dentist that makes Steve Martin's turn in the Little Shop of Horrors seem perfectly normal. Eventually coming to the end of the labyrinthine corridors that snake underneath the club, Lamb manages to achieve his objective and speak to Judy - an ex-associate from Project. For our introduction to the Wii version, Rockstar dialled us back to the start of the game, covering Lamb's original escape from Dixmore Asylum. The tutorial section of Manhunt 2, the scenario does little more than set the scene for the story, and get players used to the various control systems of the game. Dealing with Daniel and Leo's past, Manhunt 2 also features missions set in the time before they were both thrown into a basement cell in Dixmore - one of which was the last scenario we got to play through. Described as a challenging scenario, the final mission sees Danny drawn to an island by a former colleague called Michael. Swarming with Project goons, Danny and Leo's only chance of escape is to get the start key to a boat from Michael - who has now run away in some of the factory buildings found on the island. As well as throwing in a couple of Environmental Kill points (a rather nasty shredding machine and an electrifying fuse box), the mission relied on shadow and stealth much more profoundly because of the distinct lack of weapons early on. Concentrating the 'Cat and Mouse' dynamic even further, the larger number of hunters meant that enemies all too often wandered around in close proximity, increasing the number of quiet escapes into the shadowy corners spread throughout the map. In the end however, it came to a gun fight against Michael, with sharp accuracy of the Wii-remote needed to take him down - and the foresight to use bales of hay as cover, at least until they caught fire from the hail of bullets. If the PlayStation2 version was shaping up to be the more pure iteration of the game, the definitive version of Manhunt 2 would have undoubtedly rested on Wii. Beyond the obvious levels of tension and apprehension created from the control system, Rockstar also implemented additional touches to the lighting, dynamic blood splatter, three exclusive weapons (including a razor blade), and a completely different dynamic when the hunters are gazing into the shadows. When this occurs, the view changes to a first person perspective, with movement of the Wii-remote translated into a small dot on the centre of the screen. Whether you're seen in the shadows or not depends on if the dot moves outside a circle that shrinks down to barely its diameter. A steady hand is a necessity in order to survive these sequences, especially when several hunters are on the prowl for you in a single room. We were doing quite well with our nerves until one Rockstar representative pointed out how little our hands made the dot shake...cue twitchy anxieties from then on. This is perhaps the first time that a 'port' of a game hasn't felt out of place on Wii, instead Manhunt 2 was a natural on the machine - the control system didn't feel contrived. Even though the Wii control system mimics the movement of Execution Kills, something that was originally cited as one of the reasons for Manhunt 2's rejection by the BBFC, it doesn't make the experience a sadistic thrill or a 'murder sim'. In actual fact, there's a real sense of apprehension tacked onto the already heightened tension of the gameplay, an emotional response that adds to the anxiety of the game. The plethora of weapons and objects that can be picked up ramp up from shards of glass and syringes, through to electric saws, cattle prods, and wire cutters (don't ask). Guns can also be used, and also come with their own set of execution moves (headlocks and a quick dose of lead poisoning seemed to be the order of the day), though in general use the game switches to a more 'Resident Evil 4' point of view. On Wii, using a gun obviously has that extra something thanks to the remote, though that doesn't make distance kills with a handgun any less challenging. Fighting with your fists can sometimes be a necessary strategy, and like Wii Sports Boxing, gamers would get quite a workout through the jabbing motions implemented into the control system. It's difficult to write about Manhunt 2 without feeling a certain sense of injustice that it may not be released to the wider (adult) audience it so richly deserves. Without sounding like a review of the game, what we played of it suggested that Manhunt 2 could have been the title to drive Wii sales back into the hands of gamers, and away from the Wii Sports, party compilation obsessed 'mainstream' audience that so far have gobbled up Nintendo's new-generation machine. Tense enough already on PS2, the Wii version throws in another level of stress through the test of nerves when hunters gaze into the shadows and the fear of what would happen if they found you. Final Word: Standing on the soapbox for a second, Manhunt 2 isn't about the thoughtless execution of innocents or even about enacting 'casual sadism' in a virtual world. What this game does, and what this franchise has always been about, is to create the most tense and unnervingly heart-stopping experience in videogames...something that it would have undoubtedly succeeded in doing had it reached retail.
Mokong Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 Oh dear god i can't stand these "family" groups against violent video games, why can't they except that gaming is a viable form of entertainment just like film and as such developers have as much right to develop games aimed at an adult audience as much as movie studios have a right to make films aimed at adult audiences. I don't see them up in a fuss when a violent film gets released. If they'd just actually do their parental duty and monitor and control the games their kids play instead of wanting companies to only make family oriented games we'd be much better off.
Zechs Merquise Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 I understand that point, but granting the license would have opened up at least some options for none too shoddy sales of the game. Internet game sales have shot in the last few years, at least they mostly guarantee a credit card sale (ie. not many minors have free reign of a credit card). I think Nintendo would've been wrong to grant this a license. It would've gone against the grain of the market in a way which would harm their overall image.
Cookyman Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 From Newsweek MTV News' Stephen Totilo Vs. Level Up's N'Gai Croal on Manhunt 2. Round 1--Fight! Sometimes, you've just got to roll with the punches. Gratified by the growing, passionate and influential audience attracted by our first Vs. Mode exchange on God of War II, MTV News reporter Stephen Totilo and the staff of Level Up began to loosely plan out future discussions/debates. Last month, we wrestled with the Halo 3 multiplayer beta. We had always intended to tackle Rockstar's brutal stealth-horror game Manhunt 2 upon its release, because the Level Up crew very much enjoyed the first title--if "enjoyed" is indeed the right word--and we were curious to see what the company had planned for the franchise. But you know what they say about the best laid plans of mice and men. So last week, when all hell broke loose--first with the banning of Manhunt 2 in the U.K., followed by the Adults Only rating here in the U.S., the banning of the title in Ireland, and Take-Two's decision to "temporarily suspend plans to distribute Manhunt 2 for the Wii or PlayStation platforms while it reviews its options with regard to the recent decisions made by the British Board of Film Classification and Entertainment Software Rating Board--we began to despair. But we persevered, Rockstar accommodated us, and we got to play the first third or so of Manhunt 2 on Friday afternoon, with the opportunity to play as many additional missions as we can get through on Monday June 25th, so that we can debate and discuss the game for this week's Vs. Mode. As loyal readers know, the staff of Level Up is fond of film parallels, and this controversy certainly warrants another one. Is Manhunt 2 the new "Bonnie and Clyde," the new "A Clockwork Orange," the new "Last Tango In Paris," with Level Up and Totilo serving as the modern-day Pauline Kael and Andrew Sarris, valiantly defending it from the Bosley Crowther-type bluenoses who Just Don't Get It? Or is it just the new "I Spit on Your Grave," the new "Deep Throat," the new "Hostel: Part II," with us blindly playing the roles of apologists, sycophants and fanboys? We critique. You decide. Welcome. *** To: N'Gai Croal Fr: Stephen Totilo Date: June 23, 2007 Re: We Got Static N'Gai I guess you and I have some explaining to do for those who follow these e-mail exchanges of ours. We're doing something unusual by writing about Manhunt 2. We're writing about a game that isn't out. We're writing about a game that, in its current form, will never appear on store shelves and has been put on hold by its publisher, even though the game is done. We're writing about the first game deemed unfit for any rating by the official board that rates games in the U.K. in a decade. We're writing about a game that, in the U.S., currently has an 18-and-older Adults Only rating, a label issued by the Entertainment Software Ratings Board to just 23 porn and gambling titles, a few adventure games that have sex scenes in them, and one hyper-violent game called Thrill Kill. (The ESRB website lists more than 1,000 titles as M, which is for gamers 17 and up; more than 8,400 listings for games rated E for Everyone). We're writing about the controversial Manhunt 2, and in keeping with Vs. Mode tradition, we're only writing about it because we played it and played it extensively. Now how'd we do that? You were the one who kept telling me in 2003 to play the first Manhunt, the one released for PlayStation 2 and Xbox. I was leery. It was a stealth game. I find stealth games frustrating, because they ask you to skulk around for minutes and suddenly pounce on a bad guy and then sneak some more, usually with a high penalty for failure that forces you to re-play levels many times. But you said this one was a standout. I believed you could be right. The first Manhunt was made by Rockstar North, fresh off their groundbreaking work on Grand Theft Auto III and Grand Theft Auto: Vice City. You said they did some special things with audio. As death row inmate James Earl Cash, the player wasn't just sneaking around, killing wretched-looking gangsters. He was doing this because he was taking orders from a sick-sounding voice in the headset he wore on his ear. A gamer could wear a PS2 or Xbox headset of their own, and hear the wretched glee of the Director as he pushed the player from one kill to the next and celebrated the player's skill at bludgeoning heads and inserting shards of glass into soft tissue. During tense moments, the headset's microphone could pick up a gamer's anxious breathing and send enemies to investigate a rapid exhale. That all seemed like an interesting use of sound technology, but the game didn't sound like something I would enjoy--or that I would want to be caught enjoying. I was slow to pick it up. When I did, I didn't have the patience to sneak around. I quit after level four. Somewhere in my ongoing quest to get you to sit down and play through a Zelda game I decided I'd have to throw you a bone. So when Manhunt 2 popped up on the PS2 release schedule for the summer--and then also, shockingly, got slated for the family-friendly Nintendo Wii--I decided we could do a Vs. Mode exchange on the game. That way you'd owe me. We pitched Rockstar a month or so ago, asking if they'd let us play the game early so that we could be done and ready to discuss it by the time it came out in early July. We got some signs of interest, but I was skeptical. Rockstar's company philosophy is to let games speak for themselves. They don't brag about their games very often. And they defend their often-controversial content even less. Then they got the AO and the U.K. rejection and I was certain our drive had failed. Somehow we got the green light. I don't really need to tell you any of this, though. You were there. We played Manhunt 2 for a full afternoon at Rockstar's headquarters on Friday. I think we need to talk about that. You're the Manhunt expert. Do you think we got a genuine experience of the game? The first game opened with a screen that offered a few tips: "To best experience Manhunt you should... "Turn off the lights... "Close the drapes... "Lock the door... "Then get ready to kill!" They don't mention it, but I think it would also have been good to play it alone. The experience of the game--and I would assume, it's sequel--is designed to instill panic in the player. You play the game for tension punctuated with rushes of action, to some extent the same reason people ride roller coasters. We played Manhunt 2 in an office. For much of our session we sat in the same room and swapped the controller back forth between levels. I had a cup of Reese's Pieces at my side. I wonder how the people rating the game played it. I wonder if their room was well lit or if they locked the door. I wonder if that matters. For that matter, I wonder how the people who made the game played it. What were all those people thinking? Did they absorb what it would be like to be an average Manhunt 2 gamer? Does it make a difference? I have a lot of thoughts about the game that I want share with you, I hardly where to begin. The thing you know the least about my Manhunt 2 session is how I experienced the first level, because it's the only one I played when you were in a different room. The first level of Manhunt 2 is the only one that matches the description most reporters--including myself--have used to explain the game: it has the player controlling Daniel Lamb, escaping an insane asylum where something has gone horribly wrong, the helpful voice of a guy names Leo accompanying him with each step. We'll talk more about this level later, I'm sure, but rest easy knowing I experienced its highs and lows. I got Daniel urinated on by one angry inmate still behind bars. I discovered another who had hung himself. I performed my first stealth kill--with a syringe--and watched Daniel vomit because of his quick-passing guilt. I learned to sneak around and figured out how to get past some characters without killing them. I learned the motion controls and swiped the Wii's movement-sensitive remote sharply one way then another to knock a man's head off with an axe. I made my escape. I played the part of a crazy man. It was dark. It was brutal. It was horrific. It implicated me as a role-player in some vile actions. It was all exacerbated by something that may have been intentional or may have been a programming bug or been intentional, I don't know. The Wii remote has a speaker, and about halfway into my progress in the level, the remote started emitting crackling static. The pattern of the static kept switching. It didn't seem to relate to any particular action on the screen, and it bothered me. It made me uncomfortable, physically, because it was annoying. It was as if I played half the level while sitting on a thumbtack. The interactivity and design of the level kept me engaged and wanting to know what I was going to have to do next. Some would say that qualified the level as being "fun." But my innate discomfort because of the static--to say nothing of other elements in the level--prevented me from getting any joy from the level. Instead, I played it... perturbed. It made me feel a little crazy, like an asylum inmate. I wonder if that was a good thing, for a game designed to put you in control of a crazy man. It gives you some of the feeling of going crazy. It reminded me of a building that scientist built in the virtual online world Second Life that uses that world's video-game-like technology to let people virtually walk through a series of rooms that contain sights and sounds that patients suffering schizophrenia say they experience. It's an interesting bit of role-play that may or may not have been aided by the static buzz: buy Manhunt 2, if you want to feel crazy. (Which is cheaper than going to acting school and hoping to land a part in the next "Rain Man" or "The Silence of the Lambs.") Then again, the speaker crackle may have been a programming fluke. We played five more levels of the game's 16 total together. We need to talk about the Wii gestures that make you pantomime some brutal acts. We need to talk about the idea of horror in a video game, and what to make of a game that asks you to kill without suggesting as in, say, Super Mario Brothers, that killing is clean. I want to know what you made of things. But there's one thing I don't want to talk about, and that's the ratings. At heart I'm still a reporter, and I don't have the facts about the content of the final two thirds of Manhunt 2, nor do I know what content made the ESRB apply that AO. I won't debate that, though we certainly can compare the content in this game to others, including the first Manhunt. OK. Have at it. -Stephen Thats part 1 of 2 - it's too big an article to put on one post
Ashley Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 Well then just link it and pick out the best/most interesting bits as a sampler.
Cookyman Posted June 25, 2007 Posted June 25, 2007 To: Stephen Totilo Fr: N'Gai Croal Date: 6-23-07 Re: The Miseducation of N'Gai Croal Steven, Thanks for your recap of how we came to be embroiled in what I've affectionately dubbed "The Satanic Versus." Where to begin, indeed? I suspect that we're going to spill a lot of pixels on this one, so I hope that you and the readers will show me some forbearance as I use a big chunk of this post to clear my throat. Because with the AO rating bestowed upon Manhunt 2--which means the de facto banning of the game in the United States, because Sony and Nintendo do not permit AO-rated titles to be released on any of their systems--along with the de jure banning of the game in other countries like the U.K. and Ireland--Rockstar Games has vaulted into the rarified territory occupied by the likes of D.H. Lawrence, Stanley Kubrick, Vladimir Nabokov, Bernardo Bertolucci, Bret Easton Ellis, Larry Clark, Clive Barker and others who have seen their work banned, dropped, declared obscene or given the most restrictive ratings possible. Since this rarely so happens with games, Rockstar's own Hot Coffee controversy notwithstanding, I think it's important to look at other media to help understand what's going on here. And with film being the medium that I'm most familiar with, I'll focus on that. The comparative media aspect of this debate is interesting to me because as a student of film during my college days, I was (and am still, somewhat) very interested in material that pushed viewers' buttons and their limits. This wasn't always the case. I didn't see a lot of movies growing up, because in addition to not having a console in the house, we also weren't much of a movie-going family. As a result, I came late not just to movies, but challenging movies in particular. I saw "Taxi Driver" for the first time the summer before I left for college. It was on TV late one night, I watched it, and being completely unprepared for what I saw, I hated it. I'd never seen anything like it, and its insinuating portrayal of one man's desperately isolated psychosis was far too much for my young mind to process--I felt like I wanted to take a bath afterwards and wash the mental grime of Travis Bickle from my memory. When I got to Stanford, one of the campus rituals was rounding up the dorm and heading over to Memorial Auditorium to watch Sunday Flicks, the student-run film series. It was there that I saw "The Cook, the Thief, His Wife & Her Lover" and "Wild at Heart." I watched "Henry and June," the first film to receive the then-newly conceived NC-17 rating, at an off-campus movie theater. I saw "A Clockwork Orange" during Friday night movie rentals in my freshman dorm. For a kid who'd had a light-on-movies childhood, my mind was blown, and while I didn't fully understand or appreciate everything that I saw, it opened my tastes up to a wide range of cinematic experiences, which was only reinforced by studying film from my sophomore year on. So when I subsequently watched "Taxi Driver" again, I realized that my initial hatred for the film had in fact been a mélange of confusion, repulsion and attraction to the material. It had indeed been insinuating, for it had lodged itself in the recesses of my mind like a dormant virus, and having spent a year being exposed to enough other challenging cinematic experiences, I could finally grasp what Martin Scorsese and screenwriter Paul Schrader were trying to accomplish with "Taxi Driver," and loved it. To this day, it's one of just a few candidates for my favorite film ever made. I had gone from despising challenging movies to embracing them; in fact, my decision to start reviewing movies for the student paper is what led to me to become a journalist in the first place. During my senior year, I was hired to run the Sunday Flicks series. And while Flicks was primarily intended to entertain and make money, I wanted to bring back some of the provocative spirit of the kinds of movies that I'd seen at Flicks during my freshman year. So among the many Hollywood movies designed to put butts in seats, I sprinkled in Mike Leigh's "Naked" and Remy Belvaux, Andre Bonzel and Benoit Poolverde's disturbing satirical mockumentary of a serial killer, "Man Bites Dog." The former provoked a number of walkouts; the latter prompted a half-exodus--along with complaints, letters to the editor of the student paper, and an attempt by my bosses at the student union to fire me. Rockstar, c'est moi! (I refused step down, it turned out that they couldn't fire me without a warning, and I served out my term.) The most interesting response the night I screened "Man Bites Dog" was from a couple that walked by me on the way out. When I asked them why they were leaving, they politely answered that they'd seen enough to know that it wasn't for them, but that they'd be back next week. In other words, they'd made a decision that was right for them, but they had no interest in trying to impose their tastes upon others, a live-and-let-live mentality for which I could only have the utmost respect, and is especially relevant to those parts of the world where Manhunt 2 has been de jure banned. I haven't written about movies much since college, but I continued to go to the theaters, and I continued to favor challenging movies upon their release in theaters. I enjoyed "Natural Born Killers," mostly for the way Oliver Stone does violence to the viewer as much with the film's editing and score as he does with its content, to say nothing of the demented sitcom flashback with Rodney Dangerfield as the twisted patriarch. I liked Larry Clark's "Kids" and "Bully," not in spite of his pruriently vampiric fascination with the bodies and behavior of teenagers, but because of the way he mines that fascination to capture the amoral confusion of wayward teens. I'm a huge Lars von Trier fan--regardless of what the critical establishment has to say, I maintain that "Manderlay" was the best film I saw last year, by a country mile. I still have problems with "Se7en"--there's still something too high-concept about its "seven deadly sins" depiction of the villainous John Doe, as compared to, say, the more straightforward cannibalism and skinning in "Silence of the Lambs"--but I have grown to appreciate the virtues of the way the filmmakers carefully place Morgan Freeman's wise, patient, despairing and ultimately renewed Detective William Somerset at the center of the story. Even having gone through my earlier conversion with "Taxi Driver," I still struggle sometimes to absorb a movie that legitimately challenges me. I hated "Raging Bull" when I first saw it during my sophomore year. (It's now one of my favorites, too.) Ditto for "Fight Club," which I absolutely despised when I watched it at a screening before its release. On my first viewing, I found it thoroughly fascistic, because I thought that the filmmakers' sympathies lay completely with Tyler Durden's creed before trying to absolve Ed Norton's narrator with the film's last act. But as with "Taxi Driver" and "Raging Bull" before it, something about "Fight Club" stayed with me. I watched it again a few weeks later, and upon a second viewing, I was now completely on the filmmakers' wavelength. I could finally see its carefully calibrated satirical elements; how the titular Fight Club, upon the shooting death of Meat Loaf's Robert Paulsen, becomes one of the self-help groups that the film had mocked during its earlier scenes; and that while the Fight Club had been necessary to snap the narrator out of his torpor, the film's ultimate message was that he needed to grow the hell up. (Add another movie to My Favorites.) My point--yes, dear readers, I do have one--is that I'm extremely comfortable with material that is at or beyond the outer limits of what a mass audience will embrace. One of the enthusiast magazine editors I respect the most, and whose opinion I value, very much disliked the original Manhunt. Not in a "this game should be banned kind of way," but in a "this isn't my bag kind of way." It just wasn't for him. And when I recommended it to you, I was concerned that it might not be for you either. But I recommended it to you nonetheless, because as I've said to you and others many times, the original Manhunt was one of the most memorable experiences I've had from the previous generation of consoles. Why? Two reasons. First of all, Manhunt delivered on a purely visceral level. As you and I have discussed ad nauseum, Rockstar is practically without peer when it comes to establishing mood and tone. That's because a) they're really good at it, and b) the mood and tone of their games are radically different from just about anyone else working in this still-nascent medium today. The premise, nicked from the famous 1924 Richard Connell short story "The Most Dangerous Game," isn't really that different from, say Impossible Mission. But the decaying, rust belt locations; the subtly spooky, largely ambient soundscape that rarely tells you how to feel about what's going on; the freakish assortment of gangs, racists, survivalists, cops and SWAT teams that are out to get you; the grainy security camera filter applied to the brutal killings you carry out--it all added up to something I'd never experienced before, and, like "Taxi Driver," "Raging Bull" and "Fight Club," I've found it unshakable. Despite the broad-brush similarities in their mechanics, when it comes to stealth games, Splinter Cell is far more like Metal Gear Solid than either is like Manhunt; and when it comes to survival-horror games, Silent Hill is far more like Resident Evil than either is like Manhunt. It is singular. The second reason I was so taken with Manhunt is because of what you mentioned in your opener: the man who has rescued you from execution and brought you to the abandoned town of Carcer City, where you must kill or be killed, all for his amusement. And as you point out, he gives you orders through your earpiece. He tells you where to go. He tells you what to do. He tells you what minimum level of violence he'll accept in the surveillance camera-meets-snuff film killings that you must commit for his pleasure before he will open the doors or gates that will let you proceed to the next area. He sounds awfully familiar, doesn't he? His name? The Designer--I mean, the Director. Yes, at the heart of Manhunt is a brilliantly twisted joke. Rockstar grabs the translucent veil of mildly disreputable innocuousness in which most action titles cloak themselves, tears it open and exposes the sinister truth that lies just beneath the surface: in an awful lot of videogames, the developer and the publisher are asking you to virtually kill an awful lot of virtual enemies, over and over and over again. Manhunt is just more honest about this than most, and cleverly, brutally so to boot. This, like many of the movies I enjoy watching, is clearly at the outer limits of what a mass audience will sign up for. And that's a dangerous place for any artist to operate, because when some official body (private or public) or group determines that an artist has crossed a line, said artist is unlikely to find many defenders--even among their fellow creatives. We saw that earlier this year with Super Columbine Massacre RPG! And we're seeing it again with Manhunt 2, where it's unlikely that many publishers or developers will rush to Rockstar's side. Heck, Paul Jackson, the director general of the U.K.'s Entertainment and Leisure Software Publishers Association--the trade organization whose purpose is to represent publishers such as Rockstar and its parent company Take-Two-- backed the BBFC's decision, stating, "A decision from the BBFC such as this demonstrates that we have a games ratings system in the UK that is effective. It shows it works and works well." (He later added, "I would say that I was surprised at some of the language the BBFC used when they reported on the matter, but we'll be talking to them about that separately.") The situation here in the United States differs from that in the U.K. and Ireland. As I stated earlier, the British Board of Film Classification and the Irish Film Censor's Office have banned Manhunt 2 from being released in its current form, and based on both the language in their respective rulings and the six missions we played on Friday, it's hard to see how Rockstar could make any changes that would satisfy those organizations without completely gutting the game, pun intended. Here's what each had to say: British Board of Film Classification: Rejecting a work is a very serious action and one which we do not take lightly. Where possible we try to consider cuts or, in the case of games, modifications which remove the material which contravenes the Board's published Guidelines. In the case of Manhunt 2 this has not been possible. Manhunt 2 is distinguishable from recent high-end video games by its unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone in an overall game context which constantly encourages visceral killing with exceptionally little alleviation or distancing. There is sustained and cumulative casual sadism in the way in which these killings are committed, and encouraged, in the game. Although the difference should not be exaggerated the fact of the game's unrelenting focus on stalking and brutal slaying and the sheer lack of alternative pleasures on offer to the gamer, together with the different overall narrative context, contribute towards differentiating this submission from the original Manhunt game. That work was classified '18' in 2003, before the BBFC's recent games research had been undertaken, but was already at the very top end of what the Board judged to be acceptable at that category. Against this background, the Board's carefully considered view is that to issue a certificate to Manhunt 2, on either platform, would involve a range of unjustifiable harm risks, to both adults and minors, within the terms of the Video Recordings Act, and accordingly that its availability, even if statutorily confined to adults, would be unacceptable to the public. Irish Film Censor's Office: A prohibition order has been made by IFCO in relation to the video game Manhunt 2. The order was made on 18 June 2007 under Sec 7 (1) (b) of the Video Recordings Act 1989 which refers to 'acts of gross violence or cruelty including mutilation and torture.' IFCO recognizes that in certain films, DVDs and video games, strong graphic violence may be a justifiable element within the overall context of the work. However, in the case of Manhunt 2, IFCO believes that there is no such context, and the level of gross, unrelenting and gratuitous violence is unacceptable. The thing is, while I can quibble with the BBFC and the IFCO's descriptions of the game, for the most part, I can't really disagree with them. Yes, there is a "bleakness and callousness of tone," though it's certainly not "unremitting," as evidenced by that one darkly comic sequence during our joint play session that prompted us to first drop our jaws to the floor before laughing out loud. (Since you were wielding the Wiimote and nunchuk during that scene, I'll give you the honor of describing it to our dear readers.) Yes, the overall game context "constantly encourages visceral killing with exceptionally little alleviation or distancing," though as you point out, the protagonist is sufficiently horrified by his first kill that he drops to his knees and vomits. Yes, there indeed "is sustained and cumulative casual sadism in the way in which these killings are committed, and encouraged." Yes, the game does have an "unrelenting focus on stalking and brutal slaying," and there is a "sheer lack of alternative pleasures on offer to the gamer." And yes, the game does include "acts of gross violence or cruelty including mutilation and torture." My response to all of that is, so what? What does that have to do with adults like you, or me, or the aforementioned magazine editor making our own decisions as whether or not we want to play this game? What does that have to do with the countless number of adults in the U.K. or Ireland for whom the BBFC and the IFCO have decided to play nanny, wag their respective index fingers, and say, "We know better than you, and we in our infinite wisdom have decided that you can't play this game"? Unless they have good reason to believe that this game is an imminent threat to the public order, or that it will in and of itself incite adults to violence, their decision seems to me to be based on taste, and I will never believe in substituting anyone else's tastes for my own. In the U.S., where many retailers would likely refuse to stock an AO-rated title, the game hasn't been banned. But that doesn't mean that gamers will ever be able to play it in the form that you and I are experiencing. Here, it's ultimately Nintendo and Sony's whose judgment is being substituted for ours, because they, along with Microsoft, don't allow AO-rated games to be published on their systems. I find this more than a little strange, because the PSP and the Wii both have built-in parental controls--as do the PS3 and the Xbox 360--which would prevent minors from playing Manhunt 2 on a properly configured Wii or PSP. (The PS2, however, does not have parental controls for games, just DVDs.) I'm somewhat sympathetic to the fact that unlike with other forms of disc-based media like CDs or DVDs, the platform holders themselves a) approve all of the games for release on their respective systems at various stages of the development process, ranging from initial concepts to gold masters; and b) handle all of the disc replication for games made for their individual machines. By being that hands-on, they're more vulnerable to external criticism than a DVD manufacturer like Samsung which has nothing to do with the movies released by, say, Vivid Entertainment. But sympathy doesn't mean approval; I don't accept their judgment over what entertainment I should consume anymore than I do the IFCO's or the BBFC's. Their refusal to approve AO-rated games for their systems illustrates one of the useful benefits of an industry ratings system: plausible deniability when it comes to material that walks the line. If people like Jack Thompson or Hillary Clinton get upset over an M-rated game, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, retailers and publishers can point at the ESRB. If Take-Two and Rockstar get upset over the effective ban that ensues from an AO rating, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo and retailers can point at the ESRB. There's no need for genuine discussion or debate--there's too much money to be made to risk upsetting the apple cart; besides, it's just those arrogant, secretive so-and-so's over at Rockstar, anyway--so they'll just issue terse statements and leave the hullabaloo to people like us. Meanwhile, the infantilization of the medium continues, unabated. You've said that you don't want to get into the ratings process, which I understand. But I suspect that we'll find ourselves drawn into doing so as we continue our discussion, because of a couple of statements that ESRB president Patricia Vance made to Kotaku in an email interview. The first exchange that I found particularly germane concerned the Wii: Kotaku: With the Wii, developers can now make games that allow gamers to physically act out violent acts and see them occur in a game. Games such as Godfather, Scarface and Manhunt 2 all do this. Do such controls have an impact on a game's rating? If so do you think that supports the argument that a game's interactive nature makes it more dangerous than more passive experiences like watching a movie, listening to music or reading a book? Patricia Vance: We've always been very clear about the fact that the degree of player control is one of several elements that the ESRB considers in the assignment of ratings, including the content itself, it's frequency, intensity and realism, context within which it is presented, and the reward system. The interactive nature of games certainly differentiates them from more passive forms of media like films and televisions, which is why the ESRB system takes these other unique characteristics into consideration. The second exchange address the fact that the first Manhunt was rated M by the ESRB (it was also approved for sale in both the U.K. and Ireland): Kotaku: Rockstar has said that they feel that Manhunt 2 is very similar to the original Manhunt in the level and type of violence depicted. If that is the case why did one receive a Mature rating and the other appears to be on the verge of an Adults Only rating? Patricia Vance: Obviously, Manhunt 2 is a different product from the original Manhunt. The raters evaluated the submission for Manhunt 2 and determined that the AO rating was the appropriate rating assignment. Per our statement from 6/20, it would be inappropriate to comment further at this time. We've played five missions into the Wii version, so there's a lot that we can say in future posts about how its gestural controls impact the experience. And since I've played the first Manhunt in its entirety (imagine that, a game that I've finished and you haven't) I'll be able to expand on some thoughts that I'm already forming--some obvious, some less so--about why the various ratings bodies may have decided to be tougher on Manhunt 2 than they were on the original. And finally, as has been the case with our earlier Vs. Modes on God of War II and the Halo 3 multiplayer beta, I've got some ideas about what Rockstar could have done to make both Manhunt games even better than they already. But I've said enough. (No, no, really, I have.) So I'll stop here for now. Cheers, N'Gai Post 2 of 2 - was gonna edit it but couldn't be arsed
Mokong Posted June 26, 2007 Posted June 26, 2007 I went into a long ranting vlog on my Youtube earlier. (it's 20mins long.... the non cut version was nearly 60mins )
flameboy Posted June 26, 2007 Posted June 26, 2007 well I want this game even more now I've read the review in N-Gamer, a magazine I never buy as I thought it was crap, but hey.
... Posted June 26, 2007 Posted June 26, 2007 I went into a long ranting vlog on my Youtube earlier. (it's 20mins long.... the non cut version was nearly 60mins ) Hey, I just watched this. You basically verbalize everything that (most) every gamer in the world thinks, all good points. You mention the "censors" and the ratings system, especially the 18 rating. One thing you did not mention, I don't know if you know this, if you follow it or not, but there have always been (nonsensical) restrictions in the 18 rating itself. With this recent Manhunt 2 incident, I have the impression that only now did some people realize that the BBFC are in fact censors and not mere classifiers (although they do not like the term "censors"... ). Well, just to name one example that I know, David Fincher's film, Fight Club, was always rated an 18. But in fact, even in its 18 rated form, it was effectively cut by 4 seconds, removing a few punches in the scene where Ed Norton beats up Jared Leto. I mention this because you say, and rightly so, that it is stupid to blame movie studios or game studios when you have a ratings system that includes an 18+ rating. Basically all you have to do is grant something an 18 and it means it legally is for adults only. Period. BUT, these clowns actually censor and STILL grant the 18 afterwards, which to me is completely incomprehensible! I mean, in Fight Club, they cut a few punches (4 seconds!) and the film still got the 18.... I mean, what was the point of the cuts? It makes absolutely no sense. The Fight Club cuts have since been waived, I believe in 2003, for its newest british DVD edition. I don't live in the UK but I began following these things cause I buy many DVDs from the UK market and one has to be informed about cut status of films. Good sites for this are Rewind and The Melon Farmers.
Dilli Gee Posted June 26, 2007 Posted June 26, 2007 I mean, what was the point of the cuts? It makes absolutely no sense. They cut/ban stuff that promotes severe illegal activity positively. It's as simple as that. Remember Manhunt 2 is the only game currently banned in UK history. It is bad. End of.
Zechs Merquise Posted June 26, 2007 Posted June 26, 2007 Hey, I just watched this. You basically verbalize everything that (most) every gamer in the world thinks, all good points. You mention the "censors" and the ratings system, especially the 18 rating. One thing you did not mention, I don't know if you know this, if you follow it or not, but there have always been (nonsensical) restrictions in the 18 rating itself. With this recent Manhunt 2 incident, I have the impression that only now did some people realize that the BBFC are in fact censors and not mere classifiers (although they do not like the term "censors"... ). Well, just to name one example that I know, David Fincher's film, Fight Club, was always rated an 18. But in fact, even in its 18 rated form, it was effectively cut by 4 seconds, removing a few punches in the scene where Ed Norton beats up Jared Leto. I mention this because you say, and rightly so, that it is stupid to blame movie studios or game studios when you have a ratings system that includes an 18+ rating. Basically all you have to do is grant something an 18 and it means it legally is for adults only. Period. BUT, these clowns actually censor and STILL grant the 18 afterwards, which to me is completely incomprehensible! I mean, in Fight Club, they cut a few punches (4 seconds!) and the film still got the 18.... I mean, what was the point of the cuts? It makes absolutely no sense. The Fight Club cuts have since been waived, I believe in 2003, for its newest british DVD edition. I don't live in the UK but I began following these things cause I buy many DVDs from the UK market and one has to be informed about cut status of films. Good sites for this are Rewind and The Melon Farmers. There are banned movies in the UK, they'r called 'video nasties' read all about them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_nasties http://www.hysteria-lives.co.uk/hysterialives/Hysteria/slasher_nasties_4.html The UK is pathetic.
Dilli Gee Posted June 26, 2007 Posted June 26, 2007 The UK has some of the most relaxed laws on violence in the Western world. Your comment holds little water. The reason why the US has less banned films is because the MPAA rate films whilst they're in production, and things are cut out during the editing phase. That's why you get so many "unrated" DVDs in the USA - normal releases are MPAA edits, and the unrated ones are the "original".
flameboy Posted June 26, 2007 Posted June 26, 2007 They cut/ban stuff that promotes severe illegal activity positively. It's as simple as that. Remember Manhunt 2 is the only game currently banned in UK history. It is bad. End of. But is it really worse than some films out their such as hostel which clearly glamourize both gore and torturing? How Manhunt any worse than this. I don't even think it is bad for game in some ways, think of Soldier of Fortune which seems to take glee in allowing you to decapitate the enemy... I don't buy the arguement that playing is any different from viewing and means you will carry out the actions in real life or desire to do them. For me any well adjusted person should have no trouble in seperating themselves from actions they are viewing on a screen...
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