Eurovision 2021!

[bob]

I actually like it [emoji23] 

I loved it. Malta and Germany frontrunners for me!

[Fierce_LiNk]

That Bulgaria tune is a proper John Lewis Christmas Ad song.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Standard is quite high this year. Think it's between one of Ukraine, Finland, Italy, and France, possibly.

[Eenuh]

Ukraine and Iceland are my favourites. Not sure if one of them will win but I'll definitely be listening to them again.
Still sad that Iceland didn't get to perform last year (and now again this year) as they would've won it back then!

[bob]

Standard is quite high this year. Think it's between one of Ukraine, Finland, Italy, and France, possibly.

Finland? The Limp Bizkit tribute act?

[Fierce_LiNk]

Just now, bob said:

35 minutes ago, Fierce_LiNk said:

Standard is quite high this year. Think it's between one of Ukraine, Finland, Italy, and France, possibly.

Finland? The Limp Bizkit tribute act?

Yeah, man. The emo/nu-metal teenager in me loved it.

[Beast]

Am I going crazy? I genuinely thought Switzerland were awful. UK deserve some points! It's insulting! Germany deserve to be way higher than they are! 

Some of them that are in the top were quite rubbish tbf! 

[Glen-i]

29 minutes ago, Beast said:

Am I going crazy? I genuinely thought Switzerland were awful. UK deserve some points! It's insulting! Germany deserve to be way higher than they are! 

UK can compose the greatest song in the history of forever and they'll still be near the bottom of the scoreboard.

We are truly the equivalent of the Fire Emblem character in Smash Bros.

[Beast]

49 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

UK can compose the greatest song in the history of forever and they'll still be near the bottom of the scoreboard.

We are truly the equivalent of the Fire Emblem character in Smash Bros.

But that's the thing, to get literally NO points though? Load of crap- honestly won't be tuning in next year. It's such a joke. 

[Goafer]

 

Very obviously biased voting. The song wasn't spectacular, but it was far from the worst there.

Italy's was brilliant though, so glad it won.

Dadi Freyr were robbed though. Felt so bad that they were robbed last year due to Covid and then couldn't even be there for the final this year for the same reason. #JusticeForDadi

[Fierce_LiNk]

I do have to laugh a little bit at all these "it's all political" comments that I'm seeing online everywhere. Funny enough, that only every seems to come from the UK side.

I don't think the argument holds any water, personally. Ireland gave the UK fuck all points. Belgium gave NOTHING to either France or the Netherlands, which I found very surprising. (from the jury votes, I mean). If the contest was political, you'd surely end up with the same winners every year.

Since the year 2000:

2000: Denmark
2001: Estonia
2002: Latvia
2003: Turkey
2004: Ukraine
2005: Greece
2006: Finland
2007: Serbia
2008: Russia
2009: Norway
2010: Germany
2011: Azerbaijan
2012: Sweden
2013: Denmark
2014: Austria
2015: Sweden
2016: Ukraine
2017: Portugal
2018: Israel
2019: Netherlands
2020: Cancelled due to Covid
2021: Italy

The UK entry was decent yesterday and certainly one of the better ones in years. This mainly is about the poor quality of song choices that the UK has sent over in recent years. But, even still...I can't even remember a single thing about the song. Whereas, at least a dozen or close to 15 of the others are so much more memorable. When people vote, they vote for who they want to win and...it's just clear as day that nobody thought the UK entry was better than the entries from Italy, France, Ukraine, Sweden, Switzerland, Iceland, Finland, Malta, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Cyprus, etc. There's 11 right there off the top of my head who are already miles better and more memorable than the UK's entry.

The UK also doesn't promote their song very well abroad. It happens year after year. Many of the other European countries circulate their songs online or on the radio so that it's already in the public psyche before the actual competition takes place. That way, it's not a brand new thing on the night that you haven't listened to before, which may take a while to grow on you. 

The biggest fail of the night had to be Amanda Holden (I still don't actually know what she's famous for or why she's famous) giving the UK's points total. Her "I don't know which language is which" comment spoke volumes, in my opinion. When you've got other countries speaking 2 or 3 languages when giving their points or just in general, it came across really badly. 

[Eenuh]

10 hours ago, Beast said:

But that's the thing, to get literally NO points though? Load of crap- honestly won't be tuning in next year. It's such a joke. 

But people are only giving their vote to the song they think is the best in the competition. The UK's song wasn't the best, so it's not that strange that it didn't get any points. There were a few other countries with no or very low points from the public. Clearly there were much better songs that hoovered up all the votes basically. 

The UK's entry was ok, but very forgettable. I don't even remember how the song goes, all I remember is the trumpets in the background. And sadly the singer didn't sing the verses of his song very well I thought, it felt a bit flat. 

Not sure how I feel about Italy winning, I would've preferred a few other songs. But I agree with some of the songs that ended up in the top 10, they were the better songs. Thought the quality of songs was quite high this year as well, some great entries. 

[Beast]

2 hours ago, Eenuh said:

But people are only giving their vote to the song they think is the best in the competition. The UK's song wasn't the best, so it's not that strange that it didn't get any points. There were a few other countries with no or very low points from the public. Clearly there were much better songs that hoovered up all the votes basically. 

The UK's entry was ok, but very forgettable. I don't even remember how the song goes, all I remember is the trumpets in the background. And sadly the singer didn't sing the verses of his song very well I thought, it felt a bit flat. 

Not sure how I feel about Italy winning, I would've preferred a few other songs. But I agree with some of the songs that ended up in the top 10, they were the better songs. Thought the quality of songs was quite high this year as well, some great entries. 

For sure. This year was quite solid but for me, there were some songs that had me questioning how they got more points. Germany's song wasn't bad either. I liked the other rock song better than Italy's (I want to say it's Finland?) 

[Fierce_LiNk]

39 minutes ago, Beast said:

For sure. This year was quite solid but for me, there were some songs that had me questioning how they got more points. Germany's song wasn't bad either. I liked the other rock song better than Italy's (I want to say it's Finland?) 

I thought Germany's song was awful. It deserved to finish where it did, imo.

The taste across Europe is really quite varied and I thought that reflected fairly well in the voting. The ones at the top consistently scored well with the juries and public, and the ones at the bottom consistently scored poorly in both, too. The ones in the middle varied from place to place by the looks of it, from about 7th (Malta) to 22nd (San Marino). I would've thought Azerbaijan and Cyprus would've scored a bit higher, maybe even Sweden getting into the top 10, too. But, it mustn't have clicked for those across Europe, hence why it didn't get the numbers.

The only ones who should feel truly robbed are Iceland, who were nailed on to win it last year. A top 4 finish for them is still great, but...they deserved the win last year.

[Dufniall]

Watched it as well last night as it was hosted by the Netherlands and there wasn't much else on. Liked the remix of Venus! And it's funny @bob mentioning nikkitutorials, she's becoming more of a TV personality here instead of just a YouTuber. And of course he/she is always good for the inclusivity.

The song that stuck most with me was Mata Hari from Azerbeidzjan, quite catchy so it's a shame they ended so low.

Nice to see a hard rock winner and the other metal act also scoring quite high. Seeing Lordi again in the voting break was enjoyable as well.

Ukraine, don't know what to make of it. Hated it at first because of the vocals but it's a nice pumping track. Belgium was pretty okay.

And I think @Fierce_LiNkhas a point in promoting the songs. In fact not having to take part in the semi finals may be a hindrance, as the songs get double the exposure so they stick better than just hearing them one time in the finals. Never saw or heard anything from the UK up until the finals while some other songs were already in my head.

[Jonnas]

Haven't had the time to comment here, but I did catch the latter part of the event. I was rooting for France and Ukraine, so I was a tad sad to see France be so close, yet so far. Regardless, I'm always happy to see countries sing in their native tongue, so even though I'm not big into metal, I was still ecstatic to see not just the winner (didn't think Italian Metal was a thing, but this is what Eurovision's for), but 4 out of the top 5 being rewarded for singing in their respective languages.

Ironically, this is the first time ever that Portugal sent a song entirely in English. It was a pleasant song, and totally within The Black Mamba's (the band) style, so it was quite understandable. We did pretty well with the jury, but seemingly failed to catch many public votes. A shame, but hopefully this means good things for The Black Mamba in the future, considering the potential bookings they can now get.

Regarding the UK nul points... First of all, that's impressive, practically an Achievement. Second of all, it's not about politics, three other countries got zero votes from the public (which is also quite impressive, anyway). I definitely thought songs like Spain's or the Netherlands' didn't deserve those low placements, but that's how the cookie crumbles when the voting works like that.

[Sheikah]

Haven't had the time to comment here, but I did catch the latter part of the event. I was rooting for France and Ukraine, so I was a tad sad to see France be so close, yet so far. Regardless, I'm always happy to see countries sing in their native tongue, so even though I'm not big into metal, I was still ecstatic to see not just the winner (didn't think Italian Metal was a thing, but this is what Eurovision's for), but 4 out of the top 5 being rewarded for singing in their respective languages.Ironically, this is the first time ever that Portugal sent a song entirely in English. It was a pleasant song, and totally within The Black Mamba's (the band) style, so it was quite understandable. We did pretty well with the jury, but seemingly failed to catch many public votes. A shame, but hopefully this means good things for The Black Mamba in the future, considering the potential bookings they can now get.

Regarding the UK nul points... First of all, that's impressive, practically an Achievement. Second of all, it's not about politics, three other countries got zero votes from the public (which is also quite impressive, anyway). I definitely thought songs like Spain's or the Netherlands' didn't deserve those low placements, but that's how the cookie crumbles when the voting works like that.

I don't avidly follow Eurovision but to say "it's not about politics" to end up with no points is not really true.

Or to put it another way, there are countries that simply will never end up with no points because of political bias. Nicked from Wikipedia:

The last time Cyprus gave Greece fewer than 12 points was in 2015 (8 points). Since the advent of televoting in 1998, the two countries have consistently given each other the maximum 12 points until the 2015 Contest, where neither country gave their 12 to the other, but curiously both gave them to Italy.

This year the UK got nothing from Ireland which is quite unusual indeed, and while there's no guarantee that it's down to recent political events, I think there's a very good possibility.

[Glen-i]

I have to agree there, @Sheikah

To believe that there isn't some kind of political bias in Eurovision is naïve.

Now, I can't possibly say how much of an impact it actually has, but it is starting to get really weird how often the UK places so catastrophically low. Part of it is definitely how we just lump Eurovision with some nobody we've never heard of instead of sending our A-game. But a lot of people are saying this year's entry wasn't terrible, and yet, not a single point? Just looks suspicious.

I'm no Eurovision fan, but how long has it been since the UK reached the top half of the board?

[Eenuh]

6 hours ago, Glen-i said:

I have to agree there, @Sheikah

To believe that there isn't some kind of political bias in Eurovision is naïve.

Now, I can't possibly say how much of an impact it actually has, but it is starting to get really weird how often the UK places so catastrophically low. Part of it is definitely how we just lump Eurovision with some nobody we've never heard of instead of sending our A-game. But a lot of people are saying this year's entry wasn't terrible, and yet, not a single point? Just looks suspicious.

I'm no Eurovision fan, but how long has it been since the UK reached the top half of the board?

According to Wikipedia:
Since the introduction of the Big Four/Five (1999), the United Kingdom has finished last in the contest five times, with Germany finishing last three times. The United Kingdom also has the fewest top ten results of the Big Five in the 21st century, but has achieved more top five results than Spain, having reached the top five in 2002 and 2009, while Spain has not reached the top five since the 1995 contest.

So it seems things have gone downhill a lot since you've basically been going straight through to the finals.
I can see why this might affect your song, as people don't get a chance to hear it more than once, and it might not get promoted as much as it doesn't have to get voted through a semi-final. I had never heard the UK song before the final (and I will probably never hear it again either), whereas I had heard most the other songs in the semi-finals already. 
Out of the big 5, only Italy seems to be doing well in most of the competitions, the others often end up with low scores as well.

About the UK song/performance itself, apparently it wasn't as good as we might think it was. I checked a lot of Dutch and Belgian comments from people online and they mostly seemed to agree that the singing was off-key and the song was boring. And I have to agree with them. 

[bob]

I do think there is some political bias, but anyone who thought our entry deserved to be anywhere other than the bottom half of the table is deluding themselves. We sent a poorly dressed bouncer who couldn't sing, with a generic, bland, boring song. It was awful.

[Goafer]

17 minutes ago, bob said:

I do think there is some political bias, but anyone who thought our entry deserved to be anywhere other than the bottom half of the table is deluding themselves. We sent a poorly dressed bouncer who couldn't sing, with a generic, bland, boring song. It was awful.

Oh, it was absolutely prime for the bottom half, but getting zero points when there were some absolute shitters that at least got some points was what bothered me most.

[EEVILMURRAY]

On 23/05/2021 at 10:46 AM, Fierce_LiNk said:

The biggest fail of the night had to be Amanda Holden (I still don't actually know what she's famous for or why she's famous) giving the UK's points total. Her "I don't know which language is which" comment spoke volumes, in my opinion. When you've got other countries speaking 2 or 3 languages when giving their points or just in general, it came across really badly. 

Don't forget her amped up British accent to accompany the "fuck you foreigners, it all sounds the same to ones ears".

 

Does anyone know what criteria these juries go on? Because I can only assume it's financial that Switzerland got so high, same with France but that was classier. If this is what it takes to win, send in ear tumour epidemics James Blunt or Lewis Capaldi next year. Victory will be assured.

 

Germany was amazing, fuck y'all who believe otherwise.

[Jonnas]

10 hours ago, Sheikah said:

I don't avidly follow Eurovision but to say "it's not about politics" to end up with no points is not really true.

Or to put it another way, there are countries that simply will never end up with no points because of political bias. Nicked from Wikipedia:

The last time Cyprus gave Greece fewer than 12 points was in 2015 (8 points). Since the advent of televoting in 1998, the two countries have consistently given each other the maximum 12 points until the 2015 Contest, where neither country gave their 12 to the other, but curiously both gave them to Italy.

This year the UK got nothing from Ireland which is quite unusual indeed, and while there's no guarantee that it's down to recent political events, I think there's a very good possibility.

In other words, politics adds points. It can't remove them, because negative points aren't a thing. You can use politics (or rather, common culture, if we're being honest) to explain how come Greece always gets a guaranteed 12 points, and you can say the same thing to explain how come Russia always gets good results (eastern countries do give higher points to Russia on average, and that is actually frequent enough to be truly suspicious). Lack of points, though? You'd have to pay a lot of juries to not include an unimpressive song in their top 10s, and that's just... wasted money?

Regarding the bolded part... you realize that's complaining about the lack of politics, right? Ireland should've voted for you because of proximity, or common language, or whatever... no other reason to single them out particularly. Australia was also voting, and I don't think your government did anything to piss them off recently, did it? Heck, "recent political events" would actually guarantee you some votes from us, for the record (our government is chomping at the bit to attract British tourists this summer). But Portugal didn't play politics when giving votes (none for Spain, either), and I assume neither did Ireland nor Australia.

I acknowledge that 0 votes total is unlikely, but to imply it was intentional requires a conspiracy theory. Four countries got zero votes from the public, and the few jury votes they each got weren't from their respective neighbours. Or are there recent political events that justify the entire bottom 4?

10 hours ago, Glen-i said:

To believe that there isn't some kind of political bias in Eurovision is naïve.

Now, I can't possibly say how much of an impact it actually has, but it is starting to get really weird how often the UK places so catastrophically low. Part of it is definitely how we just lump Eurovision with some nobody we've never heard of instead of sending our A-game. But a lot of people are saying this year's entry wasn't terrible, and yet, not a single point? Just looks suspicious.

I'm no Eurovision fan, but how long has it been since the UK reached the top half of the board?

I know bias is involved in the contest in general, but regarding the last place, if you take a step back, you see that a bunch of other countries consistently land near last place, and the only thing they all have in common is that they qualify directly.

Like Eenuh says, getting automatically qualified for the final guarantees that the bottom 3 will be occupied by the countries that skipped a step. It's not even a matter of familiarity, it's just that the guys who would've been naturally stopped at the semi-finals are sure to get demolished by songs that already proved they can get 50+ points in the semi-finals. For a football analogy, if a bunch of countries got automatically qualified to the World Cup Quarter-finals, you'd see a lot of 7-1's at that exact stage.

And my country's been there. When Portugal hosted, we went straight to the finals and finished dead last. But if Portugal gets past the first phase properly, there's a good chance we're finishing above those who skipped the process.

[Sheikah]

1 hour ago, Jonnas said:

In other words, politics adds points. It can't remove them, because negative points aren't a thing.

Let me disclaimer this by saying that I'm not really 'into' Eurovision and actually find the no points situation a little funny, even desirable. Just in case it was coming across that I was somehow looking for excuses for UK's failure, because nothing could be further from the truth.

To respond to this point though, for sure politics can take points, just as they give. I'm surprised that you came to that conclusion. 'Taking' in this situation would be where people are influenced by factors not relating to the song which might discourage them from voting for that country. The same way some people are clearly voting for countries they otherwise probably wouldn't have, if going only by the song.

Also when certain countries politically give 12 points to each other just about every time, they're not awarding those 12 points to a country they otherwise would have (and so on, down the list of points they give). Ergo, taking away points from one other country they otherwise would have awarded points to, and awarding fewer points to everyone else. So this example alone shows how positive bias can take away points from others.

Quote

You can use politics (or rather, common culture, if we're being honest) to explain how come Greece always gets a guaranteed 12 points,

I'm sorry but I find that very hard to believe. Every time bar one since 1998, Greece and Cyprus have awarded each other the full 12 points. You are telling me that every single time bar one, most people in each of those countries genuinely found no other song better than their neighbour's? That seems so incredibly unlikely. It's not like Greece are always doing songs that are Greek folk music, is it? So can we claim it's 100% a cultural thing?

Quote

Regarding the bolded part... you realize that's complaining about the lack of politics, right?

It's not a lack of politics though. If you don't like the UK (or Israel) at the moment for whatever political reason then it makes sense that you're probably not going to vote for them, unless their song is really good. I'm definitely not saying that's the reason UK got no points, but it's a possibility that's hard to ignore.

It also seems odd to claim that politics can only have a favourable outcome and that politics in no way can have a negative impact on voting. I mean, it feels to me that you've established that politics plays a part in voting but think this can only work one way...just because?

Quote

I acknowledge that 0 votes total is unlikely, but to imply it was intentional requires a conspiracy theory.

Actually, it doesn't at all; because people are well within their right to vote for whoever they want, for whatever reason. There's also no conspiring - people are forming their opinions independently of one another about who to vote for, or who not to vote for.

The only thing you need to believe to entertain the possibility I'm presenting is that Eurovision voting is perhaps not solely a critical reflection of the music. It's a radical thought I know, but I'm going to put it out there. And I'm not arguing that getting no points is purely down to politics (because let's face it, the UK's song isn't that great), but at the same time I don't think we can discount the very real situation that the UK's popularity is roughly tracking below dogshit right now.

Or, you know. It could definitely be just that people really didn't like the song. We will obviously never know one way or the other, but it's fun to think about.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Sheikah

[Jonnas]

7 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

Also when certain countries politically give 12 points to each other just about every time, they're not awarding those 12 points to a country they otherwise would have (and so on, down the list of points they give). Ergo, taking away points from one other country they otherwise would have awarded points to, and awarding fewer points to everyone else. So this example alone shows how positive bias can take away points from others.

Okay, fair point. And also, I just found a couple of situations where points were historically withdrawn from political enemies (Azerbaijan apparently refuses to give Armenia points. And Cyprus went decades without giving anything to Turkey). It seems to be in truly messy situations where something like this happens.

10 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

I'm sorry but I find that very hard to believe. Every time bar one since 1998, Greece and Cyprus have awarded each other the full 12 points. You are telling me that every single time bar one, most people in each of those countries genuinely found no other song better than their neighbour's? That seems so incredibly unlikely. It's not like Greece are always doing songs that are Greek folk music, is it? So can we claim it's 100% a cultural thing?

For the record, I know the Greek/Cyprus thing is fixed. My mistake for throwing that point near the worst example possible.

But I'd like to clarify it's not as simple as similar folk music. National identity gets muddled in such situations. The Cypriots I've met (the ones from the Greek half of it) think of themselves as Greek, and think of the other half as part of Turkey. The Greece/Turkey conflict defines that society, it's messy. Plus, you'd be mistaken to think folk song is all they share when it comes to musical tastes, as even the specific brand of trashy euro-pop they like can be unique to them (just saying, in Portugal we got trashy music that only appeals to us too, but if Madeira was an independent territory, they'd still like it just as much).

34 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

It's not a lack of politics though. If you don't like the UK (or Israel) at the moment for whatever political reason then it makes sense that you're probably not going to vote for them, unless their song is really good. It seems odd to me to claim that politics can only have a favourable outcome and that politics in no way can have a negative impact on voting. I mean, it feels to me that you've established that politics plays a part in voting but think this can only work one way...just because?

I said the Ireland thing sounds like lack of politics because... I figured you were saying they didn't vote for the UK when they usually do. And if their votes are political to begin with (assuming that's what you meant), then it would follow that the lack of them means they're not doing political votes this year. They must've used used the criteria that everybody else used instead.

But now, it sounds like you're implying that 40 countries unanimously agreed that the UK is a tad naff as a concept, so no points for them. Spain and Germany are also naff while we're at it, I guess? Hence why it sounds ridiculous to me, that everybody with the power to vote decided that the political issue they'd care about that night was avoiding the wursts, the tapas, the stroopwafeln, and the fish&chips. And that Ireland's votes is a sign that they were on board with this nebulous agenda.

58 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

Actually, it doesn't at all; because people are well within their right to vote for whoever they want, for whatever reason. There's also no conspiring - people are forming their opinions independently of one another about who to vote for, or who not to vote for.

My general point is that nobody decides to give zero points. The last place in a competition is not the conscious decision of anybody in particular. Hence, "not intentional".