Logic Randomisers??

[Rummy]

OK. Weird title I know. But now in this big ol' internet of things v2.50 it seems pushing weird content on me is actually having an effect and reach - I meassged probs Flink and Sheikah about this when I found it a few weeks ago cos I didn't realise autoplay was on and it was....weird.

 

To not make it too long or complex a matter  - were people aware there are game logic 'randomisers' out there that basically take the logical flow of the game re-arrange it all into another still valid flow that you can play and complete the game?? When I saw it I really thought again it would be up @Dcubed's street if if he doesn't already know about it(and the crafty wizard probably already does :p) 

 

Also given my SMW code injection post in all-stars i'll tag also @drahkon @Will @Sckewi and @BowserBasher cos you may find *vvv THIS vvv* weird (warning: MM spoilers)

 

So - I opened abstract; why? So I can just let the art speak for itself. This shit has been cracking me out lately. Goddamn YouTube autoplay finally got me.

 

 

[Rummy]

Actually @Fierce_LiNk I know I said to you in your post on FB about video games and how they make me think about closed loop/systems logic and yes I know I also sent this to you too before; but the concept/idea is a great way to consider those sort of ideas....if you can overcome the mindfuckery of not being in 'order'

[drahkon]

29 minutes ago, Rummy said:

were people aware there are game logic 'randomisers' out there that basically take the logical flow of the game re-arrange it all into another still valid flow that you can play and complete the game??

Of course. Being a fan of Games Done Quick I've come across the occasional randomizer runs.

Always wanted to try one, but I don't know the games well enough to figure stuff out, I fear. I'll probably get stuck very quickly.

[Rummy]

9 minutes ago, drahkon said:

Of course. Being a fan of Games Done Quick I've come across the occasional randomizer runs.

Always wanted to try one, but I don't know the games well enough to figure stuff out, I fear. I'll probably get stuck very quickly.

I haven't really followed much of the community industry or anything in last year or few - I got my PS4 I got OW and I just kept hammering at that

The idea just...well it did and didn't blow my mind(but like Srinivasa Ramanujan I have a passing interest in permutations and combinatrics) - and that's what's weird. I can understand them building it to be able to randomise in the logical sense(and I haven't looked deep into it at all though I know it's all there) but it's still so....weird watching games I traditionally played be weirdly unbrokenly broken. Despite knowing it's been made that EVERY seed/random permutation is still solvable - it's really weird to my mind cognitively to see the dissonance of disorder in the game.

And I love it.

[Dcubed]

Me and @Glen-i have been playing through quite a few recently (on original hardware of course!).  Such as the OOT Randomiser which we ploughed through last month, it was an absolute riot from start to finish!

I’m a bit busy right now, so I’m gonna be a bit lazy and get @Glen-i to do the talking about it thing for me  

Edited September 18, 2020 by Dcubed

[Will]

These things are really cool, though I don’t keep up to date with what’s going on with them. I wish companies would include things like this in retro collections and remasters to add something new to the experience for those of us that have played them before. It would really add something to things like Mario 3D All Stars if you ask me.

[Rummy]

5 hours ago, Will said:

These things are really cool, though I don’t keep up to date with what’s going on with them. I wish companies would include things like this in retro collections and remasters to add something new to the experience for those of us that have played them before. It would really add something to things like Mario 3D All Stars if you ask me.

I'm quite new to the idea/concept so only really followed a few Zelda ones so far - makes me wonder a bit how much you can 'randomise' the older marios in a closed loop logic way(ie only the logic changes, so new RNG/Mario Maker style levels aren't the same thing per se) but I'm gonna check out a few vids of more wider arching stuff today I think! Ofc sadly we'd never get these things for real from console makers etc. due to the risks of the gaps in logic - a broken game is difficult to patch and the permutations grow exponentially that you have to be absolutely super sure all your logic is airtight with absolutely no gaps - but with such a range of combinations there may still be one somewhere out there that causes something; even if it's just a bug/glitch in game code for some coinciding reason.

 

Whilst at my parents I actually have a real computer I can use practically so also might even check one of two out myself - would still be interested to hear from you @Glen-i!

[Glen-i]

46 minutes ago, Rummy said:

I'm quite new to the idea/concept so only really followed a few Zelda ones so far - makes me wonder a bit how much you can 'randomise' the older marios in a closed loop logic way(ie only the logic changes, so new RNG/Mario Maker style levels aren't the same thing per se) but I'm gonna check out a few vids of more wider arching stuff today I think! Whilst at my parents I actually have a real computer I can use practically so also might even check one of two out myself - would still be interested to hear from you @Glen-i!

Nice of @Dcubed to not even bother...

@Will mentioned the idea of a randomiser for the Mario 3D All Stars collection. But some games just don't work as well as others.

That's not to say something like Mario 64 doesn't make a good randomiser. But it changes the game to scouring every nook and cranny for wherever the star happens to have spawned.

Compare it to something like Ocarina of Time or Super Metroid. In Zelda, every chest is full of wonder and suspense and it makes you really want to open every one. Metroid style games are exciting when randomised because you use your slowly expanding moveset to get to more upgrades and you might be forced to use certain things without having other things (Screw Attack without Space Jump for example)

The likes of Mario 64 doesn't quite work as well in my opinion because you're just figuring out where stuff is with the already complete moveset he has. It's fun, but not interesting.

Long story short, not every game needs to be randomised. It's not as fun when you're not forced to work with limited resources. (RPG's work well for this reason as well) There's also the issue of having to have extensive knowledge of the game to get the most enjoyment out of it.

[Rummy]

3 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Nice of @Dcubed to not even bother...

@Will mentioned the idea of a randomiser for the Mario 3D All Stars collection. But some games just don't work as well as others.

That's not to say something like Mario 64 doesn't make a good randomiser. But it changes the game to scouring every nook and cranny for wherever the star happens to have spawned.

Compare it to something like Ocarina of Time or Super Metroid. In Zelda, every chest is full of wonder and suspense and it makes you really want to open every one. Metroid style games are exciting when randomised because you use your slowly expanding moveset to get to more upgrades and you might be forced to use certain things without having other things (Screw Attack without Space Jump for example)

The likes of Mario 64 doesn't quite work as well in my opinion because you're just figuring out where stuff is with the already complete moveset he has. It's fun, but not interesting.

Long story short, not every game needs to be randomised. It's not as fun when you're not forced to work with limited resources. (RPG's work well for this reason as well) There's also the issue of having to have extensive knowledge of the game to get the most enjoyment out of it.

Yeah I'm watching a SM64 run from some GDQx 2019 or something atm and it's kinda ok but it's a bit less fun seeming than the Zelda stuff in that it's a bit too 'random' compared. What ones have you guys played through recently and how did they go?

[Glen-i]

16 minutes ago, Rummy said:

Yeah I'm watching a SM64 run from some GDQx 2019 or something atm and it's kinda ok but it's a bit less fun seeming than the Zelda stuff in that it's a bit too 'random' compared. What ones have you guys played through recently and how did they go?

Well, OoT was hilarious (So many disappointing rupee chests). But I did have to resort to looking up the included cheat sheet. (A text file that you get when you download your randomised seed that tells you where items are located) Ocarina of Time is huge and has a lot of chests so we went ages without even finding the Kokiri Sword. So you have to get real imaginative.

The customisation in that mod is amazing. You can have dungeons randomly be the Master Quest versions if you want more of a challenge. Songs can be randomised. You can even have shops be included in the item pool, so maybe you'll find the Lens of Truth in a shop.

I also did a Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door randomiser. That one is much more straight forward. Simply shuffles items and badge locations. But it being an RPG means you'll be using different strategies than you might do in a normal playthrough, just because you might not have your favourite badge. Anyone who has finished that game could probably enjoy that randomiser.

Then there's my favourite one, the Link to the Past X Super Metroid randomiser. You've probably heard of that one. You're tasked with playing both Super Metroid and Link to the Past simultaneously. The awesome thing is that Link might find items for Samus in Hyrule and vice versa. The Master Sword on Planet Zebra is fair game here. You swap games by entering certain houses in Hyrule or certain Map Rooms in Super Metroid.

It's a miracle that runs on original hardware. Absolutely bonkers!

Edited September 19, 2020 by Glen-i

[Rummy]

1 hour ago, Glen-i said:

Well, OoT was hilarious (So many disappointing rupee chests). But I did have to resort to looking up the included cheat sheet. (A text file that you get when you download your randomised seed that tells you where items are located) Ocarina of Time is huge and has a lot of chests so we went ages without even finding the Kokiri Sword. So you have to get real imaginative.

The customisation in that mod is amazing. You can have dungeons randomly be the Master Quest versions if you want more of a challenge. Songs can be randomised. You can even have shops be included in the item pool, so maybe you'll find the Lens of Truth in a shop.

I also did a Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door randomiser. That one is much more straight forward. Simply shuffles items and badge locations. But it being an RPG means you'll be using different strategies than you might do in a normal playthrough, just because you might not have your favourite badge. Anyone who has finished that game could probably enjoy that randomiser.

Then there's my favourite one, the Link to the Past X Super Metroid randomiser. You've probably heard of that one. You're tasked with playing both Super Metroid and Link to the Past simultaneously. The awesome thing is that Link might find items for Samus in Hyrule and vice versa. The Master Sword on Planet Zebra is fair game here. You swap games by entering certain houses in Hyrule or certain Map Rooms in Super Metroid.

It's a miracle that runs on original hardware. Absolutely bonkers!

Not at all! Seriously I'm just kinda getting into these - I had Good Old Days Gaming(think thats the guy its whoever hosts that vid I posted in OP) just randomly rolling through so I saw a fair bit of a couple MM runs(quite fun to watch given the nature of MM anyway) and then I think some OoT stuff. He did explain about a variety of options than can be toggled etc. and I did go to the sites to start trying to understand but I didn't delve into generating anything or looking into the backend logic stuff(but am aware of that cheetsheet idea that comes with the seed to help you solve it). I'll probs watch some vids of the LttP x SM ones to get an idea!

 

EDIT:Just doing one from GODG and he's explaining they apparently managed it because of a bit offset?? I don't do computer stuff but I'm casually interest in logic and deep logic ideas(no duh) and that was really fucking cute to hear because I think I actually understand it!

EDITEDIT: Getting srsly tempted to actually make me a custom LttP(no SM I don't know it good enough) and give it a run this weekend....

[Will]

2 hours ago, Glen-i said:

@Will mentioned the idea of a randomiser for the Mario 3D All Stars collection. But some games just don't work as well as others.

I definitely agree it works better for some games but I think when your a fan of a particular game type it still adds some nice longevity to a game when done the right way. 

I’d also love to have the option in the F1 games, if I could do a season where it would randomize the tracks and driver/teams I’d absolutely love it!

[Rummy]

26 minutes ago, Will said:

I definitely agree it works better for some games but I think when your a fan of a particular game type it still adds some nice longevity to a game when done the right way. 

I’d also love to have the option in the F1 games, if I could do a season where it would randomize the tracks and driver/teams I’d absolutely love it!

Well I've taken the plunge into an LttP randomiser ( https://alttpr.com/en/h/BwymdQzovK ) with a bit of madness - random (easy) enemies entrances and few other bits. So far following standard path Uncle had regular sword I got bombs a bottle with a golden bee just been through Kakariko picked up blue sword mitt and flippers; and the moon pearl is above the shelf in the library but that's actually now the blacksmith's house or something I think. The random enemies was a weird pick(ice dungeon skeltons dropping in overworld lol) and man I was having a hard time to start but the blue sword deffo upped that a bit with the easy enemies. Also as I'm going using a cheat engine to generate cheats just in case I need them along with a rewind/save state implementation. It's weirdly fun so far! Though I have yet to actually tackle any dungeons I am slowly on my way to the Eastern Palace if I don't get distracted - also if I ever need money I found a dude with 50 rupees in his pots every time in that bombable building in kakariko! This is kinda lols.

RE: Mario tho - given what Glen was saying about metroid/lttp mixing that could be a weird/super curious was to do all-stars - somehow mash all the games together. Like you might go through a whole level in one game or even go through a door and end up in a level in another game. Not sure how difficult all the logicking would be though...

[BowserBasher]

Finally finished watching that, that was interesting to say the least. I had no idea these were a thing. Majoras Mask is still the only Zelda game I never finished, don’t think I even got half way through as the whole time restricted thing started putting me off. I even got the 3DS remake and never touched it. Maybe some day I’ll go back to it but it all seemed very involved for what you needed to do to get all you needed. 
This was fun to watch though even if I didn’t get most of it from a this is not normally how it’s done point of view, from the sounds of it being that huge Link seemed to be very advantageous and skipped a lot. If any one has links to others I’d love to see them. 

Edited September 19, 2020 by BowserBasher

[Glen-i]

3 hours ago, BowserBasher said:

This was fun to watch though even if I didn’t get most of it from a this is not normally how it’s done point of view, from the sounds of it being that huge Link seemed to be very advantageous and skipped a lot. If any one has links to others I’d love to see them. 

Here's a run of the LttP/SM randomiser I mentioned previously.

[Rummy]

6 hours ago, BowserBasher said:

Finally finished watching that, that was interesting to say the least. I had no idea these were a thing. Majoras Mask is still the only Zelda game I never finished, don’t think I even got half way through as the whole time restricted thing started putting me off. I even got the 3DS remake and never touched it. Maybe some day I’ll go back to it but it all seemed very involved for what you needed to do to get all you needed. 
This was fun to watch though even if I didn’t get most of it from a this is not normally how it’s done point of view, from the sounds of it being that huge Link seemed to be very advantageous and skipped a lot. If any one has links to others I’d love to see them. 

Yeah its a brand new world to me too! Zeldas have been my focus so far - are there any particular ones you've enjoyed or any other games? I'll see if I can find stuff that'll marry with your interests.

If you're OoT familiar it seems Good Old Days Gaming(again no particular affinity except it being the random channel that autoplayed up the vids) has a few diff OoT runs/seeds. As said I started my very own LttP randomiser yesterday with entrance/exits shuffled so its kinda cool even tho I have to track stuff (ie as i said if i walk into the blacksmith house overworld wise i actually end up in the building that is the library - and also then too instead of book of Mudora being on shelf it was the moon pearl - and ironically to get the pegasus boots i went thru to the dark world on DM and eventually entered a cave entrance that put me in the sick girls house and she gave me pegasus boots instead of bug catching net - yet i remained upon exit coming out exactly where i went in too etcetcetc blahblahblah).

Anyhow here's the Good Old Days OoT playlist I just found;

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGGFX-hnXvGp_15P1-gwia33ei_6zzOyb

 

[bob]

I downloaded a Pokémon Red randomised game yesterday.

Started off with a Kabuto, and my rival got an Articuno. He destroyed me with Ice Beam.

I then got destroyed again by the first Pokémon I found in the long grass, a level 3 Mr Mime.

10/10 would play again.

[Dcubed]

The Wind Waker’s Randomiser is super cool because it completely transforms the game into a completely non-linear open world game! It takes away any barriers that prevent you from travelling around The Great Sea (with only The Hyrule Barrier remaining between you and Ganondorf); and the game is transformed into a giant scavenger hunt as a result.  It’s great fun!

Final Fantasy 4: Free Enterprise also does something similar.  Highly recommended!

Paper Mario TTYD’s Pit of 100 Trials Randomiser is also a brutal challenge that’s great fun for anyone that has played the original game to death  

Edited September 20, 2020 by Dcubed

[Rummy]

I haven't watch any WW stuff yet but hit me with your BEST video content on that if you have(not neccessarily good game/seed/randomiser content but a good video - ima get one of my bois into this shit )

[Dcubed]

Peanut Butter Gamer did a series on the TWW Randomiser...

 

[Jonnas]

I don't play randomizers myself, but I'd just like to mention that Fire Emblem also has them, with randomized classes, skills, and characters:

I usually follow this Youtuber for his character essays, but he also loves these randomizers, as he also did similar ones for Awakening and Fates. His Awakening run with a berserker Flavia replacing Chrom was quite amusing (especially since voice clips are also randomised, leading to hilariously inappropriate voice clips playing at the wrong time). Personally, I find that the joke gets thin after a while, and gameplay-wise, you just know you'll get a couple of units that will trivialise the game for you.

But I must admit, Zelda randomisers fascinate me. I might try one someday.

[Rummy]

On 27/09/2020 at 12:47 AM, Jonnas said:

I don't play randomizers myself, but I'd just like to mention that Fire Emblem also has them, with randomized classes, skills, and characters:

I usually follow this Youtuber for his character essays, but he also loves these randomizers, as he also did similar ones for Awakening and Fates. His Awakening run with a berserker Flavia replacing Chrom was quite amusing (especially since voice clips are also randomised, leading to hilariously inappropriate voice clips playing at the wrong time). Personally, I find that the joke gets thin after a while, and gameplay-wise, you just know you'll get a couple of units that will trivialise the game for you.

But I must admit, Zelda randomisers fascinate me. I might try one someday.

Interesting! Sadly difficult for me to relate to how the methodology would work as I've barely ever played a fire emblem game - but its interesting to see the range of different games and genres they seem to be applied to and how they manifest! The Zelda ones seem pretty cool though I have only barely even tickled a scratch at the surface - what's your favourite titles from the series so far? I jumped in with the LttP cos it was a pretty easy thing to do(and given its an actual patch I'm really tempted to try and dig out my old GBAs and R4/M3 if it still exists and is working and load a few old schools on it to have as an on-the-go gaming ting away from usual screens etc.)

[Jonnas]

17 hours ago, Rummy said:

what's your favourite titles from the series so far?

Wind Waker. I'm not sure how a randomizer of that game would work (considering all the sea charts, and that you need the grappling hook to get them, not to mention the sail), but I think I know that game better than Ocarina of Time (which is my second favourite, I also wouldn't mind trying it).

[Rummy]

33 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

Wind Waker. I'm not sure how a randomizer of that game would work (considering all the sea charts, and that you need the grappling hook to get them, not to mention the sail), but I think I know that game better than Ocarina of Time (which is my second favourite, I also wouldn't mind trying it).

Ahhh wow. I DO like WW but less familiar with it - usually end up not finishing playthroughs because of all the sea stuff and sailing for triumph forks etcetc. It's a bloody great game I just fall off somewhere with it(usually around master sword and two temples). OoT and MM I'm much more familiar with though. I still haven't got round to watching too many of the wind waker ones yet(maybe ill even play one myself!) but more reason for me to look into it....

Re: Fire Emblem - they're advance wars style turn based combat games on a grid right? I know very little of their playstyle but how do the randomisers kinda work? Just thinking back to I think Glen's earlier point of how its a bit less of a doable/impactful thing on say a Mario vs a Zelda?

[Dcubed]

17 hours ago, Rummy said:

Ahhh wow. I DO like WW but less familiar with it - usually end up not finishing playthroughs because of all the sea stuff and sailing for triumph forks etcetc. It's a bloody great game I just fall off somewhere with it(usually around master sword and two temples). OoT and MM I'm much more familiar with though. I still haven't got round to watching too many of the wind waker ones yet(maybe ill even play one myself!) but more reason for me to look into it....

Re: Fire Emblem - they're advance wars style turn based combat games on a grid right? I know very little of their playstyle but how do the randomisers kinda work? Just thinking back to I think Glen's earlier point of how its a bit less of a doable/impactful thing on say a Mario vs a Zelda?

Simple.  It randomises the units you fight, their positions on the map, their stats, weapons etc.

You can also have your own units randomised in the same way too!

RPGs in general are a great candidate for randomisers; and Fire Emblem is no exception.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Dcubed