Playstation 5 Console Discussion

[Cube]

I wonder if they'll do a "surprise" free to play relaunch in three months when that Secret Level TV episode comes out.

 

Although I think that episode would be kind of more fascinating if Concord is never mentioned again.

[Hero-of-Time]

Quite tempted to pick up a copy. I imagine retailers will be ordered to return all their copies. Could be a neat collectors piece.

[Dcubed]

37 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Quite tempted to pick up a copy. I imagine retailers will be ordered to return all their copies. Could be a neat collectors piece.

Stranger things have happened... Would you believe that NBA Elite 11 (a game cancelled so last minute that some PS3 copies actually reached store shelves prior to getting pulled) is the single rarest and most valuable PS3 game on the second hand market?

Honestly may be worth picking up.  As a now "cancelled" first party Sony release? It has a decent chance of being worth actual money in the future!

Worst case scenario? It'll be an interesting little piece of history for the collection shelf.

Edited September 3 by Dcubed

[Hero-of-Time]

Here's a good piece from Push Square about the whole thing.

Quote

In an unprecedented move, Sony will axe Concord on 6th September, just two weeks after the high-budget first-person shooter released. This multi-million dollar blunder goes beyond disaster – it’s an absolute embarrassment, and will forever be a stain on the format holder’s record. PlayStation’s always had first-party flops, but this product was so utterly rejected by its audience and the industry at large that it gives us a glimpse into an organisation utterly out of touch. It’d also probably put PS Studios boss Hermen Hulst under the microscope – if he hadn’t already been prematurely promoted to co-CEO.

As it happens, the ex-Guerrilla managing director will probably escape most of the blame here, as ire will instead be directed at disliked executive Jim Ryan, who departed the company earlier in the year. However, Ryan would have only been responsible for signing the cheques in this excruciating incident – this was Hulst’s baby through and through.

He said as much in 2023, when PlayStation acquired developer Firewalk Studios. “We continue to be impressed by the team’s ambitions to build a modern multiplayer game that connects players in new and innovative ways,” the Dutchman wrote on the PS Blog. Concord would go on to connect players in new and innovative ways, of course – as it was met with a level of disdain and indifference on a scale we’ve never seen before. Analysts suggest the title may have sold as few as 25,000 copies, undoubtedly making it PlayStation’s biggest ever bomb. Even forgotten forays like Kill Strain lasted six or so months.

It’s worrying that Sony allowed this product to reach the market at all. There would have been focus testing and extensive analysis behind-the-scenes, and apparently no one on a six-or-seven figure salary was able to pick up on the problems. The platform holder, instead, doubled down: spare a thought for poor upcoming Amazon Prime television show Secret Levels, which has an entire episode inspired by the universe of Concord. The release will have been offline for three months by the time that airs.

Pay your respects to Haven, too, the Canadian studio behind the widely disliked Fairgame$ – another title signed by Hulst. This co-operative shooter was announced alongside Concord last year, and was criticised much harder than Firewalk’s FPS. It simply can’t reach market without an extensive post-mortem; whoever has been championing these projects internally is going to need to take a long, hard look at the direction they’re steering the company because this ain’t it.

In fact, with the exception of Helldivers 2, the firm’s whole live service push looks like it’s in tatters right now. Pulling the plug on Concord this quickly, without any rescue attempt, will have consequences. Why should you trust Sony with your money and, more importantly, your time when it axes releases so ruthlessly? Yes, this underlines just how profoundly awful the sci-fi shooter has performed, but it’s a stench that will stick to all of the firm’s future multiplayer products – especially those that have turbulent starts.

Firewalk says that it’s exploring its options, but that’s a euphemism and we’re sad to say the studio will likely be shut down. While we hate to see talented developers out of work, we don’t think the developer itself can entirely be absolved of the blame. To our knowledge it made the experience it wanted to make, and that doesn’t automatically entitle it to success.

But this game is symptomatic of wider problems within the PlayStation hierarchy. Hulst’s rapid rise to the top is giving us pause, especially when his hit rate thus far includes the acquisition of self-destructing studio Bungie and the biggest flop in PS Studios history. He, along with his advisors and subordinates, have a lot of soul searching to do over the coming days.

Sony needs a cash cow, because its single player games are costing too much and taking too long to make. The mistake it’s made is trying to force the initiative on a fanbase that’s disconnected after years of being kept in the dark. For the enthusiasts reading Push Square, Concord is more than just an uneventful hero shooter: it’s emblematic of an organisation at odds with the demands of its most committed players.

Astro Bot’s inevitable acclaim will help heal wounds this week, but the soul searching must continue behind-the-scenes: PlayStation needs to find a way to fix the frayed relationship with its fans, otherwise we don’t see this tug-of-war with its most engaged players coming to an end.

Lots of good points made by Sammy.

I do hope this disastrous failure makes the Sony bigwigs take a long hard look at where they were heading with all of this GaaS nonsense and instead get back to basics. Sammy mentions how their single player games are costing too  much to make and while this is very true, Sony could do more by releasing small versions of their main IP, just like they done with Uncharted: The Lost Legacy or Spider-Man: Miles Morales. Smaller games built using assets and engines from main games. 

They could also scale back the games they make. I mean, just look at the size and length of something like Uncharted 4 or God of War 2018 when compared to the earlier games. There was a time when I would play through previous entries of a series when a new entry was due to be released but you just can't do that anymore due to how big these games are now. This isn't just a Sony problem though but an industry wide one and it has been a costly one, with developers being laid off left and right because companies can't afford to make these huge games anymore.

[Jimbob]

Didn't think they'd shelve the game this soon after release.  Wonder if they will re-release on FTP (PS+) or not bother, even with the beta, it didn't seem people were that interested in the game then.

[Julius]

idk seemed relevant

[drahkon]

Thanks to Vampire Survivors I put Nex Machina on hold.

But about 60 minutes ago I decided to boot it up again and tackle Arcade Mode on Veteran once more.

I played like a madman, completely in the zone. Didn't even have to use a continue. 
Funnily enough, I didn't need practice for worlds 4, 5 and 6. After getting my ass kicked once by the third boss I was afraid I needed more practice but not this time.
Beat the third boss with ease and blasted my way through the remaining worlds without any major difficulties

Well, that's the most difficult trophy down.

Now I gotta beat the first world on Master, and beat it again on Experienced in under 5:45 (hate speed-run trophies ).
After that it's a matter of achieving 100 feats!

That's gotta wait until after Astro Bot, though. Priorities and all that

[Julius]

PS5 Pro time is upon us, with Mark Cerny himself hosting the PlayStation 5 Technical Showcase tomorrow (10th September) at 16:00 BST. 

Given that it's just 9 minutes long, figured it didn't warrant its own thread  but I'll be tuning in, love a Cerny breakdown! 

Edited September 9 by Julius

[Dcubed]

Really interested to see where the price is gonna land with this thing…

Crazy that we’re getting a PS5 Pro before a Switch 2 (crazy on Nintendo’s end for being late, not Sony’s for being early), but there ya go!

[Hero-of-Time]

1 minute ago, Dcubed said:

Really interested to see where the price is gonna land with this thing…

Crazy that we’re getting a PS5 Pro before a Switch 2 (crazy on Nintendo’s end for being late, not Sony’s for being early), but there ya go!

I'm guessing $599. The base model is still a high price and so I can see them charging a premium for this.

[Julius]

1 hour ago, Dcubed said:

Really interested to see where the price is gonna land with this thing…

Crazy that we’re getting a PS5 Pro before a Switch 2 (crazy on Nintendo’s end for being late, not Sony’s for being early), but there ya go!

Yeah, I think I agree with @Hero-of-Time in that it's going to be in that $599/£579 sort of region, not only is it premium but the fact that prices have only increased for the base model since launch means they're likely going to struggle to keep the price down. $549 or lower would be very competitive but also nuke the base PS5 sales, and I doubt they'd consider going that low. I think the absolute top end of this at retail has to be £600 over here, so that'd be like $629 or something like that? 

I'm still not quite sure there's a market for it, but I mean, the same was said for the PS4 Pro and it seemed to do fine, I think it was being sold at a 1:4 ratio compared to the base model PS4, which considering the Slim, the price drop, the many bundles the base PS4 had, wasn't too shabby. 

What I think is going to be perhaps more interesting than the price is how Cerny and PlayStation are going to try to sell this thing. With the Pro, it heavily featured Horizon Zero Dawn in its marketing despite releasing 3 or 4 months ahead of it, but that game was stunning and did a great job of singlehandedly showcasing why people should at least be considering a Pro model.

Here? We have no idea what the next big game is from PlayStation which could sell this thing, and GTA VI - which I think is going to really be what drives this thing's sales - is 12+ months away, PLUS whatever delays Rockstar inevitably adds on. It's a really hard sell for now and I have to think that they want to get a launch out of the way here, however quite it might be, so that it and the base PS5 have a chance at a price cut 3-6 months ahead of whenever GTA VI launches. 

[Hero-of-Time]

26 minutes ago, Julius said:

Here? We have no idea what the next big game is from PlayStation which could sell this thing.

Probably another port of The Last of Us 

[Julius]

41 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Probably another port of The Last of Us 

Don't go giving Neil ideas H-o-T, delete this at once 

Edited September 9 by Julius

[Julius]

Accidental double post, but what can you do: name confirmed as PS5 Pro in an unlisted video on PlayStation's own YouTube channel. 

Shocking, I thought the PS5 AddPlusTripleDeluxe rolled right off the tongue! 

[Ike]

Curious if it will eliminate the need for separate performance or high quality options.

Apparently Sony has increased the RRP of the Dual Sense by £5. Sauce: https://www.eurogamer.net/sony-quietly-increases-price-of-playstation-5-dualsense-controller

[Ashley]

3 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I'm guessing $599. The base model is still a high price and so I can see them charging a premium for this.

$555 hopefully

[Hero-of-Time]

27 minutes ago, Ike said:

Curious if it will eliminate the need for separate performance or high quality options.

Apparently Sony has increased the RRP of the Dual Sense by £5. Sauce: https://www.eurogamer.net/sony-quietly-increases-price-of-playstation-5-dualsense-controller

I'm baffled why they keep raising prices on their PS goods. Don't components usually get cheaper as time goes on or is that just a thing of the past now? It's crazy how we don't really get cut price consoles at the end of a generation anymore.

[Julius]

3 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I'm baffled why they keep raising prices on their PS goods. Don't components usually get cheaper as time goes on or is that just a thing of the past now? It's crazy how we don't really get cut price consoles at the end of a generation anymore.

It's a very complex issue with many factors to consider, but first and foremost it's down to Sony/PlayStation needing to search for a way to make profits to please shareholders despite the incredibly weak yen, which has depreciated significantly and consistently since COVID hit back in 2020; in mid-March 2020 the JPY was valued at 0.0077 GBP, whereas today it is valued at 0.0053 GBP, and it seems that search has started to even extend to their accessories, which really sucks. I imagine it's also been factored into Nintendo's reasoning for not reducing the price of the Switch. 

It sucks but Japan has had it really rough the last few years, I remember hearing during the COVID recovery phase (2021/2022, can't remember exactly when because so much of the early 2020s are a blur) that at one point they were literally giving away vouchers worth hundreds of £s worth of ¥ in an attempt to boost their domestic tourism, seeing as they made the decision to keep their borders closed to tourism much longer than many other countries around the world and their typically strong domestic tourism was rocked by people being afraid to move around because, well, COVID.

Rock and a hard place and all that 

[killthenet]

I've got a feeling it'll be even more expensive than $599

[Julius]

What sort of price do you think we might end up seeing @killthenet? 

[killthenet]

I could be wrong but with the way they have been raising prices of their current models and accessories they are clearly struggling to balance the books as it is with mainstream products so I can't imagine they will sell a niche, low volume product like the Pro for a loss at launch - they will want to be making a profit on it. $600 seems like the bare minimum to me, but I think it could end up being $700 or so without a disc drive. 

Whatever it comes out at I think it's going to be the console with the highest launch price to date - the £1000 smartphone has become commonplace, consumers have gradually been conditioned to accept it over the last 15 years so it doesn't seem too outlandish to me that the RRP for the Pro will be significantly higher than anything that's gone before

[Dcubed]

8 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I'm baffled why they keep raising prices on their PS goods. Don't components usually get cheaper as time goes on or is that just a thing of the past now? It's crazy how we don't really get cut price consoles at the end of a generation anymore.

I'd say it comes down to three reasons.

Firstly, the traditional console market is shrinking.  Simply put, Sony are selling less PS5s than PS4s, and they need to ensure that their revenue line keeps going up to satisfy their investors.  So they simply raise the price to make up for the shortfall in hardware sales.

Secondly, their main competitor is falling apart, so they can more easily get away with continued price hikes as Xbox becomes less competitive in general and Playstation increasingly becomes the only game in town.

Finally, worldwide consumer inflation has simply conditioned people to accept higher prices for consumer goods in general.  People are getting used to paying inflated prices for other tech goods, so the idea of a more expensive console becomes more acceptable as a response.

As far as the PS5 Pro goes? I think that Sony know that they will be primarily targetting enthusiasts who would otherwise be looking to buy PCs and GPUs at enormously inflated prices with this console; so I think it'll be priced accordingly.  I'm betting on $699.99/€699.99 myself (as an added bonus, it also avoids the dreaded "meme price" of $599.99 too).

Edited September 10 by Dcubed

[Hero-of-Time]

1 hour ago, Dcubed said:

I'd say it comes down to three reasons.

Firstly, the traditional console market is shrinking.  Simply put, Sony are selling less PS5s than PS4s, and they need to ensure that their revenue line keeps going up to satisfy their investors.  So they simply raise the price to make up for the shortfall in hardware sales.

Secondly, their main competitor is falling apart, so they can more easily get away with continued price hikes as Xbox becomes less competitive in general and Playstation increasingly becomes the only game in town.

Finally, worldwide consumer inflation has simply conditioned people to accept higher prices for consumer goods in general.  People are getting used to paying inflated prices for other tech goods, so the idea of a more expensive console becomes more acceptable as a response.

 

10 hours ago, Julius said:

It's a very complex issue with many factors to consider, but first and foremost it's down to Sony/PlayStation needing to search for a way to make profits to please shareholders despite the incredibly weak yen, which has depreciated significantly and consistently since COVID hit back in 2020; in mid-March 2020 the JPY was valued at 0.0077 GBP, whereas today it is valued at 0.0053 GBP, and it seems that search has started to even extend to their accessories, which really sucks. I imagine it's also been factored into Nintendo's reasoning for not reducing the price of the Switch. 

It sucks but Japan has had it really rough the last few years, I remember hearing during the COVID recovery phase (2021/2022, can't remember exactly when because so much of the early 2020s are a blur) that at one point they were literally giving away vouchers worth hundreds of £s worth of ¥ in an attempt to boost their domestic tourism, seeing as they made the decision to keep their borders closed to tourism much longer than many other countries around the world and their typically strong domestic tourism was rocked by people being afraid to move around because, well, COVID.

Rock and a hard place and all that 

Yeah, but it's not just PlayStation. Nintendo hasn't dropped the price of the Switch, nor has Microsoft with the Series X. I get why Nintendo won't because the thing is still selling but Microsoft are in dead last and could do with a boost. As I said, years ago a console would get a discount when it was near the end of its life or not selling well but that isn't the case anymore. Even when a console was doing well (PS2) they would make revisions of it a sell it at a lower price.

I think it a lot of it comes down to what Killthenet and Dcubed said in that customers/younger generation have become conditioned to pay high prices for electronic goods. Paying £800-£1000 for a phone just seems bonkers to me. I begrudged spending £150 on a cheap Samsung phone 2 years ago and so the thought of spending a grand on one is just baffling to me.

[Julius]

2 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Yeah, but it's not just PlayStation. Nintendo hasn't dropped the price of the Switch, nor has Microsoft with the Series X. I get why Nintendo won't because the thing is still selling but Microsoft are in dead last and could do with a boost. As I said, years ago a console would get a discount when it was near the end of its life or not selling well but that isn't the case anymore. Even when a console was doing well (PS2) they would make revisions of it a sell it at a lower price.

I mean, couldn't part of the reason that Nintendo have avoided price cuts be both that it is continuing to sell well, but also be reinforced by the weaker yen? A very steady 30% drop-off of the yen's value over a 4 year window isn't something I think anyone would be prepared for, and so while I think in the past the components and manufacturing becoming cheaper for manufacturers as the life of a console went on made sense, revisions like the Slim could drop in price because they'd then take additional steps to reduce costs or maximise profits (size of the console for one, as a single shipment could then include more consoles) but also the slim margins/taking a loss wouldn't hit as hard knowing the strength of the console when it comes to software sales. Nintendo, for me, could easily have seen that the margins were tightening on the Switch due to the weak yen and made the decision to not introduce a price cut in part because there just isn't as much room to, and they seem to be getting around this in more creative ways (such as trying to bundle in games and subscriptions). The Switch also wasn't cutting edge tech when it first released and so Nintendo are likely seeing incredibly healthy margins on the sales of Switch units which means they won't need to touch the price because, as you said, it's also just still selling really well. 

As for Xbox, being backed by Microsoft, I do think that is a whole other kettle of fish. Microsoft can live without Xbox and cut it, whereas Sony are still heavily reliant on PlayStation, possibly not to the same extent as they were a decade ago, but it means that PlayStation as a brand impacts Sony's shareholders more noticeably than Xbox does Microsoft's. I do agree that the smart move would be for Xbox to have introduced a price cut by this point - instead they seem to be gearing up for a new console, because..? They can? - because the strength of the US dollar would allow them ample margin to do this, but the strength of the dollar also means that Microsoft are probably not looking to squeeze everything they can out of Xbox as a brand (due to success elsewhere offsetting Xbox) and Xbox seem to be having an identity crisis as it is (I mean, it's been a decade, so a pretty damn long identity crisis), that I'm not sure selling hardware would resolve at this point. 

Also, it would make too much sense for them to introduce a price cut, so obviously they wouldn't do that 

The other thing to consider is that, as far as I can tell, PlayStation and Nintendo both seem to have their manufacturing centralised in East Asia in both Japan and China, where obviously the weaker yen is going to have hit them hard. Compare that to Xbox who, because of Microsoft, seem to manufacture in a number of territories located around the world, and their decentralised manufacturing structure being set literally anywhere but Japan must be something of a boon. 

Again, I think it's only one of a number of factors, but I think it wouldn't give the complete picture if we were to overlook the weakness of the yen, which has pretty clearly had an influence on PlayStation's decision-making here. I don't think it's necessarily the only reason, but it's got to be a big one, and I think the fact that the only price changes we've seen since COVID from the three console manufacturers have been to adjust to the value of currency (Switch had that small price cut in the UK and EU some years ago, was it £20? And then with PlayStation and their price increase) I think it makes some sense, and even going so far as to increase the price of accessories suggests to me that it's not just based on components for, say, the PS5, but it's a case of Sony trying to squeeze everything they can out of PlayStation. 

3 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I think it a lot of it comes down to what Killthenet and Dcubed said in that customers/younger generation have become conditioned to pay high prices for electronic goods. Paying £800-£1000 for a phone just seems bonkers to me. I begrudged spending £150 on a cheap Samsung phone 2 years ago and so the thought of spending a grand on one is just baffling to me.

Yeah, I can see this being a big factor in things too. I mean especially with pretty much all of us here at N-E with PS5s considering the Pro a total waste of time for now, it is leaning very hard on being a specialty and premium product aimed at a very small cohort of enthusiasts, which I'm sure Sony will be looking to take advantage of. From what I've listened to of them recently, Digital Foundry seem to think that there's going to be some pretty great tech included in the Pro, too, and I can definitely see PlayStation wanting to charge a premium for that. 

I think it's also worth considering how PlayStation market themselves these days, they've started turning up at Apple events and seem to be taking more steps to evoke Apple; the DualSense, for example, which is what has turned up at Apple events, in both design and its default colours are clearly manufactured with form in mind over function. It's a far cry from the actual functional form of DualShocks of a bygone era, not to mention the fact that they sell a premium controller sold at 3x the price of a standard DualSense in the Edge which has comparable battery life! It's nuts. 

I think it's also how the price can be spread, we had Xbox All Access doing the rounds early on this gen but it didn't really seem to catch on, there are third-parties who can do this now of course (Klarna and the like) but PS5 Pro just getting a "so it's X amount" without potentially discussing how its price can be spread out like a contracted phone's (where contracts are probably just as common as buying a phone outright these days, if not more so in more developed parts of the world?) also means it's difficult to compare to the pricing of a £1000+ phone. A £1000+ phone being put up for £70 per month phone over 2 years includes a HUGE markup by providers, but given the climate of technology lasting longer, the economic climate, the fact that it is commonplace, etc., means that it's a much easier pill to swallow for most people my age (because I think I'm pretty squarely fitting that younger generation demo you mentioned) compared with the idea of dropping £600+ at once on a gaming console.

It makes absolutely no sense but that's just where this stage of capitalism has taken us I guess 

[Jimbob]

Didn't i read somewhere that Nintendo has enough in the bank, that they could take 10 years worth of losses.  I'd have imagined by now the Switch is either breaking even, or at a loss.  And software is making them bank by comparison.

It's confusing me a little as to why everything is going up, whereas this time in the PS4 gen, we were looking at cheaper consoles with the Slim.  This time, the Slim is the same cost as the standard PS5.  And i'm thinking the PS5 Pro will be £100 more than that.