Nintendo subforum opinion on my(Rummy's) ongoing moderatorship (now open, all comments welcomed!)

[Happenstance]

3 minutes ago, dazzybee said:

Not your final point though 😂 How you can think that is bizarre other than through loyalty. 

Well, I don't agree and we'll just leave it at that.

[Rummy]

Right. Getting used to doing all this with new forum layout but this is an extension of another thread. For those in expectance - it'll be good to go when unlocked. For those confused as to what it is - it'll be good to go when unlocked

Once done I'll make this into a better post. TL;DR; - if you're reading this right now watch this space all will change shortly.

[Rummy]

EDIT: Woops this was a total error for deletion but I might leave it here in case I want a post in this location later...

[Rummy]

6 hours ago, dazzybee said:

Do you really not see the utter hilarity of condemning me for speaking for other posters, while doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!!! Oh boy. The difference being I have evidence in that no one, like in the above, expressed annoyance. There was just a discussion between a few posters. Seemed okay to me. Yet you come in, and speak for the forum And express your dismay at the posts. 

With this. And your final point. I do think it would be best if you do step down from moderation. Not only have you not been seen in months, the moment you do you’ve completely derailed the thread and soured it,  making bizarrre  accusations.

 

Unstamped quotes are my own; it's difficult to pull them in together but if needed I'll source them with links later. I've already address the counterpoints made here by you @dazzybee with;

Quote

So? Does it matter what YOU think regarding this? Yes, that is a very personal approach to start out that argument; but I think you struggle to see this from points of view other than your own, personal, one - and I will expand on why I've made my point like this. The population from which you draw to think you have not asked - nor is it necessarily their place or desire to openly complain or express that view. Why? Because they are here as members and not moderators (of which groups I belong to both, and have to strike a balance in the moderation aspect) - but the idea of moderators is that they are relied upon by the community to police and ensure it is as they expect and take action on their behalf, in order to ensure a good community that fosters productive discussion - at at least that is what I presume the majority of our members are here for. Take into account discussions had with us in private, by a variety of users, and that that avenue is always open to any member of the forum.

You assume your 'absence' to be evidence. You must take into account and recall that we as moderators often get approached in private; whereas you as a regular member probaly would not and even so it would not be in the same context. More than once I have had various members(and yes, they were quite varied) message different things since I obtained my modship. Thus, I, unlike you in that sense HAVE had a reflection on what the community wants and wishes; at least from a variety of individual PoVs. This is what you seem to lack, in seeing only your own perspective, and not taking into account others. Some members can discourage others from posting or commenting certain things publicly - do you think they will be coming to you in private to express these concerns, or to the moderators and admins? An unobserved occurrence is not evidence of something not existing - it simply leaves it remaining to many an extent as an unknown. As bolded, there is a job and responsibility on a moderator(who again, should be able to exist impartially in role of moderation yet be both moderator and member, as a human). This does, whether accepted or not, give me privilege to both information brought in private; but also to call detrimental behaviour in a thread as a point of moderatorship without needing to be detrimental to that thread. This in itself has led to this thread's creation.

 

5 hours ago, dazzybee said:

Runny hasn’t been here for months and months and it’s been great. He was about when the place was a disaster. Not all his fault, not blaming, but just saying that he hasn’t been around here while it’s been great. But in my opinion the first time he comes back it drags it back down, completely unnecessaraiky, to the awful wii u days when we lost loads of our best members. 

I will reference again - as a mod I was partial to many members approaching me about the state of the forums. Some wanting to leave for a variety of reasons and members. I do not know if you can't quite get it or how many times I'll have to say it - but as a mod I do believe I am partial to far more information from our members on the whole than you are, generally. I have had a few come to me in a variety of methods of communicaton, and some beg me not to escalate concerns because they did not wish to cause a fuss. Tell me again how that's the ideal and best community, considering I was here in the glory days of the WiiU?

I saw also a comment directed at someone about loyalty - I'm gonna be real honest here when I say I won't deny I think some members appreciate me and think me ok, but I do not moderate on loyalty. I expected none in return either. I did not canvass or have any particular relationships with anyone who posted in my defence. To what do you think this loyalty is owed, or from where it is born, or even to what benefit? If you break the rules you break the rules - and some in fact know via a harder means that I won't break them for them either. I moderate exactly as a moderator not as a member - I post as a member when otherwise not clear.

On that note - I should tell you maybe(or others here) - I never obtained my modship through any sort of neoptism. In fact when I got it, being the massive saddo I am, it was a real notable moment in my life and something I still hold close to my heart. After obtaining the privilege I was funnily enough able to see how it had come about in the BTS discussions - the proposal and discussions had around it were not ones I expected. In fact if anything, it was something I never considered to be likely, as I haven't always been short of controversy as a member. Yet an impartial judgement was made, and supported, as to my suggestion to be a moderator. It's actually that which still drives me to try and be a good one, and actually do something with it. I tried it not long after I got estahblished here too - with 'Let's Talk...' etc - not for myself but because I saw the problems I hoped to solve, and to avoid all those people who left during the WiiU times from actually then doing so. Funnily enough I got hilariously called some sort of dictator there too iirc.

6 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I agree. This thread was going fine until it was completely and bizarelly derailed with pointless arguments and accusations, and not for the first time either. In no world did @dazzybee deserve any of the condescending stuff thrown his way.

Please see above. If I am to act as a moderator - it is important for us both to have a public presence but also for points of moderation to be made publicly, as otherwise what use is it to others? If all moderation was done behind close doors would we not see mistakes repeated under a guise or defence of ignorance? I can't pretend ofc to be as refined as the judiciary here - but there is a reason why we have an open justice system in our societies. Many worldwide systems draw from the same parent one too(the English system) though the arguments as to why that is are very complex - I'm not here to argue about the nature of justice on a forum not subject to it. For anyone who's forgotten the age old line just because it isn't touted any more - posting is a privilege, not a right.

Additionally I have highlighted where I see the logical contradiction in addition to acknowledging doubt - I took not definitive action except a light and casual word. I have yet to see either @dazzybee or yourself @Ronnie explain why what I explained could not be perceived as it were(ie asking a question and within 6 hours literally saying you don't care about the same subject asked).

5 hours ago, Ronnie said:

5 hours ago, Ronnie said:

If you're so concerned about not derailing threads you should have PM'd myself and @dazzybee instead of launching into paragraphs of argument and nitpicking in the first place.

 

Be careful here Ronnie. How many times have you been PM'd before(no limit on time) and wilfully ignored them? I'll force you to die by your own sword if you truly wish to draw it.

 

6 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Which could equally apply to @Rummy's excessively long and over-bearing way with words. I'm not saying it's easy being a mod, but heavy handedness is never a good thing on a forum.

 

Again, I must moderate. I may type at length, but I wish to be clear and comprehensive in order to avoid any doubt in doing so. In fact, the ongoing ignorance in examples such as yourself and dazzybee despite simple interventions, such as what occured here in the first place, are what lead to far more comprehensive interventions.

 

To come back to an earlier point I would again reference legal systems and their comprehensiveness. I am not personally in any way legally trained nor qualified, but I draw a lot from the systems as I personally see a very fine and rare logic to them. We are not them, but I try to moderate from their example. It's merely my own style, however. No other mod should necessarily be expected to act the same or differently, as long as they're upholding the idea of ensuring the community is one that feels welcoming and comfortable for all; regardless of point of view.If you have an issue with the wordiness of my moderation posts then don't read them but face the consequences. However I currently act as a moderator(and feel it's generally clear which posts are ones of moderation if not made explicit) and this is part of what you will have to accept being in this community. If they're 'excessively long and over-bearing' for you then that's your issue; I won't sacrifice my clarity or portrayal of points merely to save you a bit of effort in comprehending something actually quite quick and simple. As for heavy-handedness - I've specifically in this instance been demonstrably not so, no? Could I have been heavier handed? What is the heaviest handest you think I could have been, and the lightest? Draw your scale that you're placing me on if you've confidence in the point. I doubt you will - because you realise I'll show you exactly how light-handed I have, in fact, been in this instance.

 

5 hours ago, Glen-i said:

Hey! That's when I joined! Silver linings, am I right?

...Anyone?

Has @Rummy really been absent for months though? I swear I see him pop up every now and then...

EDIT: Oh woops. Sorry, you posted that last post telling us to stop this conversation before I finished this post.

 

In line with the above comment I didn't respond within the thread at the time, but rest assured you and all others who did continue to comment are fine. I did not do the tidiest job of making my point and cleaning threads; I have less desktop browser access and the mobile browser can be quite temperamental sometimes.

 

5 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

You could probably slam the content in here.

https://forum.n-europe.com/topic/35127-lets-talk-about-this-place/?tab=comments#comment-1683415

 

I'm sure I saw this earlier being the 'Let's Talk....' thread. I did consider it tbh so I'm right with you, however I though given the time passed I'd give this a fresh airing on a slightly changed theme.

[Nolan]

I’m having a hard time following which threads get what type of post (also mobile and came across this one on the way out of work), but it seems this is the one to say this. 

Stay on as moderator Rummy. I enjoy the above the board open talk approach you take things. Thinking back to the “Lets talk about this place” thread. I think there was a certain catharsis to that type of discussion. Whether it did good or bad I don’t really know but I find that style far better than totalitarian as some forums find themselves.

I have some thoughts on quotes posts but I think I’m missing extra bits of contact. Plus those thoughts would go in the other thread linked in the OP? 

[Rummy]

3 hours ago, Nolan said:

I’m having a hard time following which threads get what type of post (also mobile and came across this one on the way out of work), but it seems this is the one to say this. 

Stay on as moderator Rummy. I enjoy the above the board open talk approach you take things. Thinking back to the “Lets talk about this place” thread. I think there was a certain catharsis to that type of discussion. Whether it did good or bad I don’t really know but I find that style far better than totalitarian as some forums find themselves.

I have some thoughts on quotes posts but I think I’m missing extra bits of contact. Plus those thoughts would go in the other thread linked in the OP? 

Thanks for the sentiment in my favour. As for following things - I appreciate its difficult. A challenge for myself personally in trying to tackle this is there is not always a consistent pattern for what I'm looking at etc.

Regarding latter point on thoughts of quoted posts - please put it all here. I didn't want to clog game related threads with this discussion - ofc if it's related to the threads in question I should be able to move that later too; moderation sometimes is also facilitating such things and not just chastisement/complaints!

I'd essentially rather stuff was here than elsewhere for now, I'll gladly get Nintendo related comments into their threads as needed as appropriate. Not sure how applicable it is here but I don't want anyone feeling unsure of what to post where as a result of this thread etc.

[Nolan]

11 hours ago, Rummy said:

Ok well another great way to illustrate my point of not being listened to when I made a lengthy response specifically asking this not be done in this thread but a different one. I can't cut these now. I'll go home later and do so on my laptop - feel free to continue both debates but rest assured all that this will not be the overriding theme of this thread as I'll split them into a seperate topic later.

(I miss the simplicity of seeing bbcode in posts) 

I suppose it was this post that was gave me confusion about where to make response to some things I read in here. 

11 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Which could equally apply to @Rummy's excessively long and over-bearing way with words. I'm not saying it's easy being a mod, but heavy handedness is never a good thing on a forum.

His long speech somewhat serves the purpose of trying to be clear and understandable in his methods. Hardly a reason to decry him as a mod. Now in this particular post, yes he was a bit too wordy and it makes some of this harder to follow than necessary but typically this is not the case. And using too many words is hardly being heavy handed....if you want heavy handed, if I were mod I’d have likely banned you long ago. And that’s why I would be a poor mod because you do have good posts and do contribute. 

And I'm not trying to say you should praise the current regime because they haven’t done what I’d wrongfully do(not backseat modding either). I’m just saying that Rummy is not heavyhanded even if longwinded. 

11 hours ago, dazzybee said:

@rummy on my phone, so can’t quite effectively. So I’ll just post in here. 

Forst point. I wasn’t dismissing his point. They are two separate, non contradictory (I’m glad at least you’ve admitted this was a false statement you made)  comments. One, genuine curiosity if anyone did. Two, irrespective of everything, I don’t think it matters if a company has or hasn’t done it before. I mean, it’s so simple, so clear, I don’t understand how anyone can have the reaction you had. 

 

12 hours ago, Rummy said:

Quotes don’t appear within quotes so bear with me on my mobile, but the OP quotes of dazzybee  

You (dazzy) asked a question about launching online partway through and charging for it. Then made a statement about not caring if no ones ever done it before.

Now maybe I’m missing some context or maybe I’m just straight up retarded but seems to be those two statements do directly contradict each other. In your words ”curious if anyone’s done it before; don’t think it matters if a company have or haven’t done it before”. 

If it has no importance why even be curious? And why prominently exclaim you don’t care after asking if it has been done?

Like I said I feel I’m missing context but if I’m not I feel you’re a bit in the wrong (but not so I’m the wrong moderation should be called into effect or warrant this thread). And for posterity’s sake, and I could be wrong, but weren’t Xbox, PS2 and Gamecube online all “launched” after release. Granted only Xbox had an associated charge and no online prior to the paid online, so the situation is different. 

 

 

 

Irrespective of all that I want to be slightly introspective (uhh I guess). I’m not going to call anyone out, I’m not even going to say people will know who they are, they might not. 

Some just need to grow up a bit. Learn to just let things go, let people be wrong. You might disagree with their views. You might find their views outright wrong, but there are times you just aren’t going to be able to educate them. Just let it go and don’t reply. 

I know 8-10, 12 years ago I was much younger and perfectly willing to argue (well I do still enjoy a good argument) wrong or right. I’ve looked back at some of my ancient posts and feel like an utter git at the way I posted. Honestly I can think of posts when I should have been reprimanded in someway. I know some where I was quite a jerk for no real reason, not even really arguing. 

I don’t know that I’ve grown up myself truly but lately I’ve seen posts and comments (not here usually) that I want to argue and respond to but I just know I don’t have to time to bother and that they likely won’t understand why they are (or why I find them to be) wrong in their way of thinking. So...I just put it from my mind and move on. Even as short as 3-4 years ago I was enough of an asshole that I would insinuate people were “clinically retarded”.....and that’s not a good thing on my part.

Thought in honesty, sometimes I fail. And sometimes I’m wrong and I admit when wrong and usually I’ll even apologize as well. 

[Kav]

I’ve no problem with you @Rummy

[dazzybee]

@Nolan yeah context is missing. When I said I don’t care if anyone’s done it. Not about the information - why would I ask for some information that I didn’t care about. The I don’t care was about the whole point of the discussion in the first place. As in, it doesn’t matter if someone has or hasn’t, it doesn’t change my belief that Nintendo will, and also should, launch their online service mid way through s generation and charge people to play all games. 

So i was interested in the information. But either way it doesn’t change what Nintendo are doing. 

If that makes sense.

[Jonnas]

Rummy, I definitely appreciate you as a moderator. You're very open and transparent about your decisions, and most importantly, you actively take steps to make the discussion environment here at N-E better. Your posts do get longwinded at times, but I don't see that as a flaw. It's good to be open and thorough, especially when dealing with more delicate situations (as mods are expected to do).

As for the dazzybee situation, I think you acted well.

[Ronnie]

51 minutes ago, dazzybee said:

@Nolan yeah context is missing. When I said I don’t care if anyone’s done it. Not about the information - why would I ask for some information that I didn’t care about. The I don’t care was about the whole point of the discussion in the first place. As in, it doesn’t matter if someone has or hasn’t, it doesn’t change my belief that Nintendo will, and also should, launch their online service mid way through s generation and charge people to play all games. 

So i was interested in the information. But either way it doesn’t change what Nintendo are doing. 

If that makes sense.

I don't understand how this tiny misunderstanding deserves a short story worth of aggro and criticism. Bizarre. Was it really worth it?

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

As a long term member who has dropped out with absolute zero motivation to post here, even during this golden age of Nintendo gaming... I'd say something does need to change if this forum wants a flourishing community.

My number one disgust with this forum was the consistent impartiality of mods, especially when key/favoured members are involved. It created a toxic/oppressive feel to this forum that just didn't feel fun to post anymore. Its a shame, because once I decided to stay away because of these politics, most of us were having fun in our weekly MK sessions etc.

My two pence.

[Ronnie]

1 hour ago, King_V said:

As a long term member who has dropped out with absolute zero motivation to post here, even during this golden age of Nintendo gaming... I'd say something does need to change if this forum wants a flourishing community.

My number one disgust with this forum was the consistent impartiality of mods, especially when key/favoured members are involved. It created a toxic/oppressive feel to this forum that just didn't feel fun to post anymore. Its a shame, because once I decided to stay away because of these politics, most of us were having fun in our weekly MK sessions etc.

My two pence.

Do you mean partiality?

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

28 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Do you mean partiality?

Haha, yes!

[Cube]

11 hours ago, King_V said:

especially when key/favoured members are involved. It created a toxic/oppressive feel to this forum that just didn't feel fun to post anymore.

The problem there is what while some people can be like that and cause that issue, they typically don't break any rules. Banning them would essentially turn this place into a dictatorship where the we pick and choose who we like. 

Unfortunately, we have to stay impartial.

It's worth noting that you can message a mod or admin if you have a complaint about a member of the forums (on a similar note: please only use the report function when people are actually breaking the rules, we've received a few complaints this way but it's intended for more severe stuff). 

The same applies if you have any suggestions on how we can improve.

[Ronnie]

9 minutes ago, Cube said:

The problem there is what while some people can be like that and cause that issue, they typically don't break any rules. Banning them would essentially turn this place into a dictatorship where the we pick and choose who we like. 

Unfortunately, we have to stay impartial.

It's worth noting that you can message a mod or admin if you have a complaint about a member of the forums (on a similar note: please only use the report function when people are actually breaking the rules, we've received a few complaints this way but it's intended for more severe stuff). 

The same applies if you have any suggestions on how we can improve.

I could be wrong but I think @King_V is talking about certain mod(s) giving preferential treatment to posters they like and treating others with a different scrutiny. If that's the case then I agree. 

[bob]

I don't even know who is a mod other than Rummy. But he seems cool.

[Grazza]

Without wishing to get into the ins and outs of any particular argument, I want to say I've always found @Rummya very fair moderator.  Moreover, he's prepared to take action, which should not be underestimated.  I know from personal experience moderators do not seek to abuse their power - quite the opposite.  No one wants to be chastised, but sometimes it's best for the civility of the site.  The responsibility of taking on a moderating role far outweighs any benefit - the fact that Rummy is prepared to sift through pages and pages of bickering and take the burden on his shoulders should not be undervalued.

 

On a more general note, I implore people to think about whether they really want to argue and pull others up on things so much - not just on here, but in general.  We all have our strong beliefs, which we want to champion, and many of us want to discuss and debate, but we should never forget our manners.  Half the time, I'm sure many people just want to express themselves and leaves it at that.  Heck, there are things in the modern world that infuriate me, including political movements, but maybe we all, including me, should try and see things from another point of view sometimes.  Many of us (perhaps everyone) has psychological issues of some sort, and I just think a bit of peace, love and understanding would be welcome.  One of the best memes I see going around says something like this:

 

"Everyone you know is fighting a battle you know nothing about.  Be kind, always."

[Pestneb]

On 2/25/2018 at 4:25 PM, Grazza said:

On a more general note, I implore people to think about whether they really want to argue and pull others up on things so much

100% this. Rummy isn't perfect and I don't always agree with him but he's not a bad mod, and he's a good person. Stay Rummy!

 

People who have issues with specific users.. block them. like seriously, block them. there are 4 people who always have petty fights, and that's what ruins things. I don't post so much because yeah, everytime I was about to submit a reply I could imagine this one, or that one picking it apart and.. yeah.

[Pestneb]

maybe not directly linked... but every member is an ingredient in this forum. I do dislike some members, and they do get blocked from time to time to make the forum more palatable for my tastes. There is only one member that if I am entirely honest I wouldn't miss at all if they stopped coming. But if they did stop coming, probably another member would come less, or stop coming too and it would be a chain reaction. it's not as simple as remove the member(s) you don't like and the forum will improve. I'll take Wii as an example, as he is the banned member who stands out the most for me. Did it calm down the "issues"? yup. but did it improve the forum? I'm not so sure. Wii was a great contributor at times, but what got him banned was his immature side (that we all have). I think a few people on the forum need to take a step back, and like grazza said, really think about why you want to argue. I'd hate some people taking things too personally, fighting too hard and going down the same path as Wii did. Most of us are adults and we know how to behave. sure this is a more relaxed place, but seek out and engage with the members that make you want to be here, and just ignore the ones you don't like... it's not rocket science.

I have a friend who hates ginger... and was surprised to find out that their favourite dish in fact contains (albeit a tiny amount of) ginger.

Also, sometimes ingredients clash. So some of you maybe belong to a savoury dish, some of you are for the dessert. Others can go either way. You may belong to different courses but we all belong to the meal. We shouldn't need Rummy here to moderate us at all.. he should just be culling the advert posts really.

[Ronnie]

2 minutes ago, Pestneb said:

We shouldn't need Rummy here to moderate us at all..

And he hasn't needed to for the past year, including these past few weeks. He didn't need to moderate @dazzybee's recent posts. It's all a big fuss over nothing.

[Clownferret]

I'm getting mighty frustrated everytime I log on to see recent activity in the forum, expecting some exciting news just to see it's this bloody thread. I've no recollection of any dealings with Rummy but either quit or Don't, this isn't the Samaritans! When Kingv left he just posted a brief goodbye and that was that. Which brings me to my main grievance. Some great members have left or been banned and I put this solely down to the poor moderation on these forums (Not you Rummy). Things are not as bad since the Switch launched but the Wii U thread was like school playground bullying and it was allowed to continue because the protagonists were friends with the mod's. Shame on you! I'll say what I said at the time. How can it be acceptable to berate Nintendo in a Nintendo forum and yet not be acceptable to say anything negative about their rivals?

Another problem is that it isn't always possible to understand somebodies meaning when reading text, we are all guilty of misinterpretation by no fault of our own but should all take a bit more time to consider if we have understood what the poster is trying to convey. This whole thread seems to based on one such instance, a very simple misunderstanding that in no way merited the magna carta. 

 

[Ike]

1 hour ago, Clownferret said:

How can it be acceptable to berate Nintendo in a Nintendo forum and yet not be acceptable to say anything negative about their rivals?

Despite this being a popular opinion, it is. However it's the context/how it's done that's the problem, especially during the Wii U era where tensions were high and often sparked arguments.

[Cube]

1 hour ago, Clownferret said:

 I'll say what I said at the time. How can it be acceptable to berate Nintendo in a Nintendo forum and yet not be acceptable to say anything negative about their rivals?

Both were acceptable. What wasn't acceptable was obvious attempts at trolling threads just to try and get an angry response from someone else. 

When people are fans of something (such as Nintendo, as most of us originally joined as we were fans of Nintendo), it can be easy to be angered by bad decisions they make. As a result, the line between someone who is upset about something they're passionate about and people posting just for a response is pretty blurry, so it's possible that some may have slipped  our radar, I'm sure you can see how things aren't exactly simple.

As for the friends comments, I don't really know what you mean. Nobody was being let of because of being friends with moderators. Sure, we can be lenient, but if we were stricter then we'd still have to treat both sides fairly, which I think would be a disaster for the forum. 

[Ike]

28 minutes ago, Cube said:

Sure, we can be lenient, but if we were stricter then we'd still have to treat both sides fairly, which I think would be a disaster for the forum. 

Agreed. Most of the forum would be banned if we weren't.