Last of Us Part II

[Goafer]

34 minutes ago, Cookyman said:

The game is brutal but it's an 18 certificate so what's the problem?

I don't think anyone said there was a problem?

Unless you're referring to me, in which case my problem isn't with the overall brutality of the game (I loved the first game), just a particular scene that I personally don't want to see. I'm not outraged by it at all, I just know I won't enjoy it and the impact that scene has on the overall story has put me off buying it.

I'm probably not making much sense, but I can't elaborate further without spoiling the game.

[Ashley]

1 hour ago, Cookyman said:

The game is brutal but it's an 18 certificate so what's the problem?

There are some incredibly brutal 18 certificate films but there is no backlash there anymore - thank god we are finally past the video nasties of the 80's and the "ban this sick filth" tabloid headlines for Child's Play 3 when the Bulger murder was headline news in the 90's.

We fortunately now live in a society when we can choose our films without moral outrage  and hoperfully we can choose our games too although judging by user ratings in Metacritic we have a moral majority who disagree (I'm guessing many of whom don't even have the game).

Not a 'problem' but several potential 'issues' (and again not saying the game is 'wrong' or anything, but points of discourse):

1) The relationship between viewer/film and player/gamer is radically different. Asking a player to commit an act is much different from watching it passively and as such the parallels between film and game horror/scares/violence are weakened. Part of the reason why there's less backlash (it certainly still exists, just not as large and not as focused on films anymore) is because the industry regulated itself, albeit under duress, to address the complaints. 

2) The industry does have somewhat of a problem whereby 'adult' (and/or 'art')  = violence. It is obviously bigger than TLOU and Naughty Dog, but this game is part of that ongoing conversation.

I don't know the specifics of what is in this game as I've not played it but I may read up because I'm actually curious if there's any correlation between that and what has been a big talking point amongst game dev twitter this weekend.

And as Goafer has said I'm sure some people are just "it's not for me" and that could be because of the violence but that doesn't mean they think it shouldn't exist.

[CrowingJoe79]

Are you disappointed that the multiplayer mode was removed? Playing in co-op would have been utterly fantastic, giving the amount of enemies, locations, and more. I've never actually played the original game's faction yet, although it wasn't canonical...

[Julius]

Well, after around 30 hours put into the game, I've seen credits roll, tears in my eyes. 

Completely blown away, definitely going to need some time to think about it some more. But this is absolutely going to be a part of the GOTY discussion at the end of the year, and deservedly so, in my mind. 

With regards to the backlash, what I'll say is that there are in my opinion three BIG things which happen in the game, and if you're not on board with all three of them, I could see the experience crumbling apart very, very quickly. And besides that, it's definitely got some pacing issues, and a much larger ensemble here means we don't really see the tight narrative focus and character development seen in the first game. It definitely falters at times. 

I think we're about to see a modern example of reactions in line with that of a certain sequel which caused a lot of controversy at the time of its own release, nearly two decades ago, and which will be mentioned a whole lot I'm sure in the coming weeks and months during discussion of this game. 

Spoiler

Metal Gear Solid 2. 

Hope those still playing enjoy the experience, I can't wait to discuss this in a bit more detail (of course with spoiler tags!) once more have completed the game. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Julius

[Cookyman]

On 6/22/2020 at 12:22 PM, Cookyman said:

The game is brutal but it's an 18 certificate so what's the problem?

I was not having a go at anyone although the word problem seems to be a problem for some.

I was merely using the Metacritic user scores by the moral majority (read the comments, jeez) in there to create a talking point in here.  If the games not for you it's not for you. 

I think Adam Sandler is an annoying cunt that I'd never get tired of kicking, but some people seem to like him. 

Horses for courses really.  

[CrowingJoe79]

Depression set in for me after finishing the game. It's too dark. Although I always did say that certain other survival horror games began to lack that approach, and have gotten repetitive and cheesy. But this game was a lot to take in. I can see why it's not for everyone...

[Ashley]

4 hours ago, Cookyman said:

I think Adam Sandler is an annoying cunt that I'd never get tired of kicking, but some people seem to like him. 

Using that gif certainly helped sell your point too.

[Dog-amoto]

Loving this game. Don’t have a problem with the story so far (currently on Day 3) and I don’t mind the brutality. I actually want to kill all of these fuckers and their bastard

Spoiler

dogs

in the most brutal way. Fuck them. 

[LazyBoy]

Fascinating to me that there can be so much discussion about a game, and so little of it about the actual game. Story this, story that. Fuck the story. Buy a book, I'll recommend you a reading list.

[Ashley]

55 minutes ago, LazyBoy said:

Fascinating to me that there can be so much discussion about a game, and so little of it about the actual game. Story this, story that. Fuck the story. Buy a book, I'll recommend you a reading list.

Are the gameplay mechanics that radically different from other titles in the genre?

[LazyBoy]

1 hour ago, Ashley said:

Are the gameplay mechanics that radically different from other titles in the genre?

With the asterix that I haven't played the game, it not only seems that there is not much different in terms of gameplay here compared to similar in the genre, there's actually less gameplay compared to those games. It's a watered down blend of a traditional resident evil resource scarcity coonundrum and splinter cell sneaking. And I guess what frustrates me most is that this is not the topic of discussion. 

The first one was a good game, don't get me wrong, but I've never played it again and I put that down to a lack of gameplay depth (same for the uncharted series). Has this game improved on that? All I'm aware of is that now there are dogs. That's it. If the gameplay has evolved and I'm not aware of it please educate me. 

[Julius]

4 hours ago, LazyBoy said:

Fascinating to me that there can be so much discussion about a game, and so little of it about the actual game. Story this, story that. Fuck the story. Buy a book, I'll recommend you a reading list.

@LazyBoy well, first and foremost, people are playing this game for the story, not the gameplay. The gameplay is the vessel for conveying their story. Compare it to a Nintendo product and it's a totally different beast, such as in Breath of the Wild or Super Mario Odyssey where the (somewhat limited amounts of) story is very much the vessel for the gameplay. 

1 hour ago, LazyBoy said:

With the asterix that I haven't played the game, it not only seems that there is not much different in terms of gameplay here compared to similar in the genre, there's actually less gameplay compared to those games. It's a watered down blend of a traditional resident evil resource scarcity coonundrum and splinter cell sneaking. And I guess what frustrates me most is that this is not the topic of discussion. 

The first one was a good game, don't get me wrong, but I've never played it again and I put that down to a lack of gameplay depth (same for the uncharted series). Has this game improved on that? All I'm aware of is that now there are dogs. That's it. If the gameplay has evolved and I'm not aware of it please educate me. 

Gameplay is dramatically improved from the first game, there's not a question in my mind about that. Areas are larger, there are some areas where wide linear exploration is possible for instance. As much as I loved the first game, it was very linear not just in its storytelling methods, but also in its moment-to-moment gameplay; The Last of Us Part II is much more dynamic when it comes to enemy AI and encounters than its predecessor, environments are much more varied both in style and scale, and there is a weight to your actions in combat which make you feel like you're scrambling for your life. The greater variety upgrades to skills and weapons compared with the last game too, being able to go prone, dodging, air takedowns that we saw in Uncharted 4, rope puzzles and physics, excellent animations again contributing to the weight of combat, notes giving a greater flavour to the world and being utilised more frequently in puzzles, and then of course tropes from other survival games such as material scarcity and so on that we saw in the first game too. 

Again, the gameplay is superb, I just feel the story is being talked about much more 1) due to the controversy surrounding it and 2) because at the end of the day the gameplay here is the vessel for the story. 

[CrowingJoe79]

Well, you have to use a rope sometimes to reach parts you otherwise cannot get to. Other than that, there's not many new additions to the general gameplay. The bombs in the first game that Bill introduced you to at his hideout, got replaced by these other bombs. Only Abby uses them, as they are military made. You still use the same guns and improvised weapons, though. So I wouldn't say there's a great deal that's all that new to the sequel. 😑

In terms of the story, a lot of fans are not happy about it. Never have I been so disappointed with a game. 😭

[Julius]

@CrowingJoe79 again, spoiler tags?

I've finished the game but still, try to spoiler tag posts which clearly contain spoilers, as not everyone's played the game. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Julius

[Ronnie]

I'm getting serious The Last Jedi vibes with this game.

Critically earning rave reviews but get it into the hands of the public and a chunk of people hate the story decisions the creators made. Maybe because it wasn't what they expected? (I haven't played either game so am just guessing)

[Julius]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

I'm getting serious The Last Jedi vibes with this game.

Critically earning rave reviews but get it into the hands of the public and a chunk of people hate the story decisions the creators made. Maybe because it wasn't what they expected? (I haven't played either game so am just guessing)

Yep, same vibes except arguably much worse in my opinion because of the leaked cutscenes a few months back fuelling the fire well before the game had even released. Again, though, I think it's a very vocal minority, because simply put the majority won't have finished the game at this point.

People have also had their minds made up for months about certain scenes as a result of the leaks, and context for certain scenes is extremely important when it comes to storytelling in any medium, so of course those scenes being viewed out of context doesn't help in the slightest. 

Also doesn't help that expectations were sky high based on the first game and Naughty Dog's history of critically acclaimed and successful games, people were expecting a 10/10 masterpiece, no questions asked, but that just was never going to happen. I read an interview with Druckmann the other day where I think he nailed it: the problem with something this big, in a setting like the one we see in TLOU2, just narrows it's storytelling options the more that the series goes on. 

There are absolutely some problems that I had with this game that I mentioned before, and I don't think it will be for everyone, let alone fans of the first game - like Square Enix with Final Fantasy VII Remake, I think Naughty Dog took a lot of risks here that they didn't necessarily need to, but it was warranted by the story they were telling. I think it's got some serious pacing issues, amongst other things, but this game has had an absolute grip on me since finishing it on Monday night.

It's not flawless, but I'll be damned (and lying) if I said that it's not one of the most intense, brutal, and gripping experiences I've had with any form of entertainment.

And again, that's not going to be for everyone. And that's absolutely fine. But I think that the majority of the backlash that I've seen from the vocal minority (you know, those review bombing, insulting others for liking the game, and so on) is excessive at best, and borderline disgusting at worst. Neil Druckmann and the folks over there at Naughty Dog are handling it incredibly well so far, all things considered. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Julius

[CrowingJoe79]

When did I post spoilers? I was talking about the gameplay.

[Julius]

7 minutes ago, CrowingJoe79 said:

When did I post spoilers? I was talking about the gameplay.

Spoiler

Quote

The bombs in the first game that Bill introduced you to at his hideout, got replaced by these other bombs. Only Abby uses them, as they are military made.

Maybe I just picked up on it because I already knew, but the implication that Abby is playable any longer than at the start of the game during the Prologue? 

 

[CrowingJoe79]

If you are interested, Michael Does Life is going on the air soon. We usually talk about Resident Evil Village, but tonight it's going to be also about The Last of Us Part II as well.

 

[Julius]

Kinda Funny Spoilercast with Neil Druckmann, Troy Baker and Ashley Johnson:

Just started listening, Troy hasn't got to the very end yet  should be a great listen, really interested in hearing a bit more about the ideas behind the game! 

[Julius]

Played by over 4.1 million players in the first three days, cruising past Spidey's 3.3 million and God of War's 3.1 million if I recall, as well as Final Fantasy VII Remake's 3.5 million.

Absolutely nuts, but no surprise given the success of the first game. Loving this game more and more the more I allow myself to digest it and understand it, listening to and reading interviews, and so on. I don't think a game has ever required as much of me - mentally, physically, emotionally - as this game did. 

[dan-likes-trees]

Interesting that all the negativity on this thread is from people who haven't played the game, whereas everyone who's played it seems pretty positive? (Just skimmed through mind, given I noticed a couple of spoilers).

Anyways just popping my thoughts in the mix - about 5 hours in and it's such a masterful game, certainly in terms of directing and of technical finesse.

I've always found the 'read a book if you want a story' argument a bit bizarre. I read a lot, but I also play games because they can tell different stories in unique ways. Last of Us and this sequel are I think a pretty great example of that, where a lot of the story of the world is conveyed through optional environmental storytelling. Figuring out the story of deceased survivors through letters and clues scattered around abandoned buildings still makes for some really beautiful moments.

That said the game certainly suffers from so many games in recent years having been inspired by the original - the gameplay feels a lot more familiar, and it hasn't really evolved as much as one would hope in 7 years - still a fair bit of moving boxes around et all - and think I've thoroughly had my fill of stalking through long grass and pressing triangle in games at this point.

Still - excited to play more. The most notable and impressive thing for me (alongside the directing of sequences and the way the music works) is the quality of the acting and VOs across the board. Really puts into perspective what a complete embarrassment 95% of games are in this regard - one of the few games where my partner will actively sit down and watch me play rather than have to leave the room because the acting is so awful (looking at you, every assassins creed game). Can't praise the leads highly enough - and the writing feels so much more engaging than Unchartered - that's what really carries the game for me.

[Glen-i]

2 minutes ago, dan-likes-trees said:

Interesting that all the negativity on this thread is from people who haven't played the game, whereas everyone who's played it seems pretty positive? (Just skimmed through mind, given I noticed a couple of spoilers).

[Ronnie]

4 minutes ago, dan-likes-trees said:

Interesting that all the negativity on this thread is from people who haven't played the game

I can't see anyone being negative who hasn't played the game. Just ones who have, and don't like it.

[LazyBoy]

On 24/06/2020 at 4:29 PM, Julius said:

@LazyBoy well, first and foremost, people are playing this game for the story, not the gameplay. The gameplay is the vessel for conveying their story. Compare it to a Nintendo product and it's a totally different beast, such as in Breath of the Wild or Super Mario Odyssey where the (somewhat limited amounts of) story is very much the vessel for the gameplay. 

That being the case then I would think there is going to be backlash regardless of what story they put out (not that naughty dog will care going by the sales figures). Cause after all this isn't high fiction, it's fan fiction. The comparison @CrowingJoe79 made with the Last Jedi is quite apt in that sense. People turn up to find out what happens to their favourite characters. And if what happens isn't what they want, then that's the game ruined for them. That's what you get when the game is just a vessel for the story.

MGSV had a dogshit story, but the game is still loved. Why? Cause who gives a crap about an unfinished, poorly thought out story when you have gameplay that is so fun, varied and replayable? You know who cares? People who should realise maybe theyre engaging with the wrong medium.