Beast Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 I just want to point out that I do actually see reasons to vote either way but I'm 90% sure it'll be Remain anyway. I'd actually be more surprised if it was Leave. Also, with me saying either way, we're fucked, it's because we are. I would also like to point out that me voting out isn't to "close the borders" but I think control is an issue that should be tackled. At the minute, things are average but could be better by a long shot. I also think voting Leave, things aren't going to massively change on a life-changing scale that it's going to be totally unbearable in day-to-day life. It might affect the future but then so could Remain. The truth is nobody really knows whether it'll be better or worse. Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
sumo73 Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 But if the UK votes to leave, Scotland will almost certainly vote to leave the UK. But if we vote to stay then they'll almost certainly stay in the UK. ...'almost certainly', the truth is nothing is 100% any more. As I said before the point is 'when' will the SNP hold another referendum. The SNP supports a core view that an independent Scotland is in the best view for the country and for it's future. According to their 2016 manifesto - "In the next parliament, we will try to get the Scottish people to agree that being an independent country is the best option for our country. We will listen to the people who voted No in 2014 and we hope to change their minds". Regardless of the outcome of the EU vote, the SNP will continue to push for their core belief, don't think otherwise.
Ashley Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 That wording though. "Let us tell you how you were wrong until you realise the error of your ways".
sumo73 Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 Regardless of tomorrow's vote in the UK we do need to look into the 'migrant impact' fund which this government removed and look into why some migrants undercut UK workers wages. Both of these points I should add were raised by the Labour leader. I don't see any clear winners in this EU referendum and I feel that the campaigns on both sides could have and should have been handled better. I saw a very dirty side to politics during this debate and I'm not impressed by it. Let's not forget that an MP died during this campaign. An MP that was prepared to work with others from different parties. An MP who saw the bigger picture away from divisive and tribal party politics that we normally see when we watch PMQ's or look across our media. When we vote on Thursday regardless of how we vote we are exercising our democratic vote. How we come back together as a country, how we look at the bigger picture, how we can heal some quite big divisions in the UK due to this referendum and how we accept the results is a question for Friday.
Ashley Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 And another MP had death threats against her and her family (and other MPs may have had similar for all I/we know). It really has brought out the worst in people. Hopefully the spirit of Jo Cox will embigen people in a newfound way. Her husband has mentioned wanting to carry on her work and I really hope he does.
Beast Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 I don't see any clear winners in this EU referendum and I feel that the campaigns on both sides could have and should have been handled better. I saw a very dirty side to politics during this debate and I'm not impressed by it. Let's not forget that an MP died during this campaign. An MP that was prepared to work with others from different parties. An MP who saw the bigger picture away from divisive and tribal party politics that we normally see when we watch PMQ's or look across our media. When we vote on Thursday regardless of how we vote we are exercising our democratic vote. How we come back together as a country, how we look at the bigger picture, how we can heal some quite big divisions in the UK due to this referendum and how we accept the results is a question for Friday. This was what I was trying to say. There's not an obvious answer, there's not a clear winner and nobody can say if we would be better or worse off. My family and I had a really good discussion about it to the point that I'm undecided in what to do as are they. There's pros and cons on both sides and both sides have lied. For me right now, with new points raised, there's not a clear vote. Obviously workers rights is an aspect that needs looking at but then if we left, we'd have to think of whether we'd get our own rights that could potentially be better for workers. As for the people saying we've got it great and stuff, I personally don't think we have it that good. It's not terrible but it definitely could be a lot better too. I don't know. It's too mind-boggling.
Blade Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Referendum day! Polls open from 7am to 10pm. Everyone must vote!
Goron_3 Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Voted. Lots of nervous faces in the office yesterday. It's very likely we will all lose our jobs if Brexit does happen, or at least be forced to resign as the company will move to Europe). Fingers crossed.
Ashley Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) This was what I was trying to say. There's not an obvious answer, there's not a clear winner and nobody can say if we would be better or worse off. My family and I had a really good discussion about it to the point that I'm undecided in what to do as are they. There's pros and cons on both sides and both sides have lied. For me right now, with new points raised, there's not a clear vote. Obviously workers rights is an aspect that needs looking at but then if we left, we'd have to think of whether we'd get our own rights that could potentially be better for workers. As for the people saying we've got it great and stuff, I personally don't think we have it that good. It's not terrible but it definitely could be a lot better too. I don't know. It's too mind-boggling. We could get better worker rights...but given who we've got at present I don't see that happening. The EU is actually pretty progressive on workers rights. The EU guarantees 28 days paid leave (although the UK did previously have guaranteed leave so if anything it would just be the number changing). Part-time workers have the right to occupational pension schemes because of the EU. The Treaty of Rome states men and women should get equal pay for equal work (although sadly doesn't still happen). The EU has also limited the amount of hours your employer can make you work to 48 hours a week or 13 hours a day (although you can waiver this right I believe). On the other hand our maternity leave is longer than the EU minimum so it's swings and roundabouts. You can always check how the people leading the leave campaign have voted as a rough indication of their view on worker's rights (and other issues, obviously). Johnson has generally voted against changes to welfare, improvement to trade unions (which are key for worker's rights) and while he hasn't been particularly engaged in worker's rights he has voted to make things easier for businesses. Gove's record is more mixed when it comes to worker's rights and generally negative on welfare. IDS is similarly a mixed bag that largely voted against improving welfare. You can't check Farage as he's not an MP, but I think this says all you need to know: [tweet]27923829339[/tweet] It's unlikely their going to make things terribly worse, or maybe even make any changes at all. They're certainly unlikely to make changes quickly, but without anyone there to stop them making changes you have to ask - would they in the long term work to improve workers rights? It's a difficult one to say. There's a lot of ifs and buts and speculation. Except for Farage, he clearly is not a man of the people as much as he claims otherwise. Also, I can't recall anyone from the leave campaign saying they want to leave to improve workers rights (might have just missed it) so I wouldn't be too encouraged. Edited June 23, 2016 by Ashley
Goron_3 Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) I find the notion of 'our country is fucked either way' really difficult to understand. I haven't even done much travelling but I can tell you that things are bloody good here compared to the majority of places. Our food is pretty cheap because we pay little import tax (or none), we can travel throughout Europe on the cheap without having to get a Visa and the EU gives us a strong economy and environment to trade in. As a science graduate I can also tell you that the reason why we are so strong in terms of research is because of the EU and the funding we receive. Just yesterday over 100 Vice-chancellor's across the country urged the public to vote Remain because if we Left the EU it would leave a very serious funding gap for high end research. I don't get what's so bad about our country? Edited June 23, 2016 by Goron_3
Serebii Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I find the notion of 'our country is fucked either way' really difficult to understand. I haven't even done much travelling but I can tell you that things are bloody good here compared to the majority of places. Our food is pretty cheap because we pay little import tax (or none), we can travel throughout Europe on the cheap without having to get a Visa and the EU gives us a strong economy and environment to trade in. As a science graduate I can also tell you that the reason why we are so strong in terms of research is because of the EU and the funding we receive. Just yesterday over 100 Vice-chancellor's across the country urged the public to vote Remain because if we Left the EU it would leave a very serious funding gap for high end research. I don't get what's so bad about our country? :p Neither option is perfect. There are elements of the EU which suck, there are elements that don't. I firmly believe that united we stand, divided we fall. Many people are just misinformed. For example, a significant portion of the population don't realise that we do actually vote for our MEPs, yet so many are "angry" that the EU exists with people nobody voted for to unilaterally make decisions. Unfortunately these misconceptions spread. I fear that if we leave, a lot of people may have remorse because it's not going to be what they think. There are reasons to leave, valid ones, but many people aren't voting due to valid reasons. Hell, when one of the leads of the Leave campaign makes a statement that "people are fed up with experts from acronyms telling people what to do" when trying to plead his case, you know something is up
Nuntendo Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I don't get what's so bad about our country? Maybe because you're not poor.
Goron_3 Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Maybe because you're not poor. If you knew my background you wouldn't be saying that bruh. #LabourVoter
Eenuh Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Maybe because you're not poor. The poor will only be worse off if we leave... The whole thing about migrants undercutting wages is a shitty reason to vote Leave. It is not the fault of migrants, it's the fault of employers not offering decent wages. The government should be making sure that the minimum wage is enforced, and that the minimum wage is actually enough for people to live on (or start enforcing the living wage, as that is more acceptable than the minimum wage).
bob Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I exercised my right to vote this morning. Hashtag Remain.
Nuntendo Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 If you knew my background you wouldn't be saying that bruh. #LabourVoter No. I would. You dont get what is so bad about this country? People are dying because their benefits are cut to the point of destitution, people roam the streets begging for scraps of money, people are unable to feed their families properly. All of this and more and the bankers and politicans and journalists attend banquet after banquet in their flash cars and fancy suits. So, when you say that you dont get what is so bad about this country, you sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.
bob Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 None of that is going to be solved by leaving the EU though.
Goron_3 Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 No. I would. You dont get what is so bad about this country? People are dying because their benefits are cut to the point of destitution, people roam the streets begging for scraps of money, people are unable to feed their families properly. All of this and more and the bankers and politicans and journalists attend banquet after banquet in their flash cars and fancy suits. So, when you say that you dont get what is so bad about this country, you sound like you have no idea what you're talking about. This has nothing to do with the EU. I agree with what you're saying, but that is an issue with the government. Voting 'Leave' will only increase the chance of a more permanent Tory government, which is the opposite of what I want (although this a very small part of the reason why I voted 'Remain'). Your initial point was that 'I'm not poor' and that it therefore blinds me to the issues going on in this country. I grew up in a council house and my mum works on minimum wage at BHS, which has gone into administration because the previous owner was an absolute moron. I'm the last person who would ignore the issues. Our country isn't in great shape but we are in a very good position compared to many other countries around the world. Let's fix the issues instead of side stepping them.
sumo73 Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I exercised my right to vote this morning. Hashtag Remain. Sorry couldn't resist -
Nuntendo Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 This has nothing to do with the EU. Never said it did. I agree with what you're saying, but that is an issue with the government. Voting 'Leave' will only increase the chance of a more permanent Tory government, which is the opposite of what I want I agree. Your initial point was that 'I'm not poor' and that it therefore blinds me to the issues going on in this country. I grew up in a council house and my mum works on minimum wage at BHS, which has gone into administration because the previous owner was an absolute moron. I'm the last person who would ignore the issues. Our country isn't in great shape but we are in a very good position compared to many other countries around the world. Let's fix the issues instead of side stepping them. When you say "I don't get what's so bad about our country?" you are side stepping and ignoring the issues. You dont get what is so bad about this country... But now I have told you what is so bad and you seem to agree with me? Then maybe, in the future, you shouldnt be so glib when people are destitute and dying and starving in this country. Think about your mum next time.
Cube Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 You dont get what is so bad about this country?People are dying because their benefits are cut to the point of destitution, people roam the streets begging for scraps of money, people are unable to feed their families properly. So....wouldn't cutting out a portion of the population who pay more in tax than they receive in benefits/services make this even worse? When you say "I don't get what's so bad about our country?" you are side stepping and ignoring the issues. He clearly means about things that are influenced by the EU, not our own government's policies.
bob Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I think when Goron said that, he meant 'in the context of staying or leaving the EU', since Animal was saying 'The country is fucked, so let's leave'.
Nuntendo Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 So....wouldn't cutting out a portion of the population who pay more in tax than they receive in benefits/services make this even worse? Yes. He clearly means about things that are influenced by the EU, not our own government's policies. Didnt seem very clear to me.
Happenstance Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Didnt seem very clear to me. He said it in a thread about the EU referendum. Seemed clear enough to me.
Nuntendo Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 He said it in a thread about the EU referendum. Seemed clear enough to me. "I don't get what's so bad about our country" is a sweeping statement which a lot of people actually believe. So, why would I assume that he is instead saying "the EU doesnt damage our country"? If he mispoke then thats fine. But dont try and say its my fault for misunderstanding.
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